View source for Podcasts/BMA-Ep13

'''Black Mass Appeal'''
Ep. 13 - Lucien Greaves and Reproductive Rights<br>
Jan 23, 2018 08:01<br>
''For our lucky number 13 show, we talk with Satanic Temple co-founder Lucien Greaves about today’s Missouri Supreme Court hearing considering whether anti-abortion laws violate our religious rights as Satanists. We discuss the facts of the case (and the lack thereof), TST's commitment bodily autonomy and religious freedom, and what you can do to help. Also: We’re making movies for Satan, and we investigate a curious case of Twitterphobia.''<br>
https://pod.casts.io/podcasts/black-mass-appeal-modern-satanism-for-the-masses/episodes/episode-13-lucien-greaves-and-reproductive-rights

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== Transcript ==
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[WIP]

Unknown Speaker  0:04  
Welcome to Black Mass Appeal a podcast that brings modern Satanism to the masses. Today on black mass appeal for our lucky number 13 show we talk with Satanic Temple co founder Lucian grieves about today's Missouri Supreme Court hearing, considering whether anti abortion laws violate our religious rights as Satanists. Also, were making movies for Satan and we investigate a curious case of Twitter phobia. So joining me today, we have Daniel.

Unknown Speaker  0:32  
Hi, my name is Daniel. I'm a member of the Sikh temple and I'm a spokesperson for satanic San Francisco if it's so pleases the court.

Unknown Speaker  0:40  
And we have

Unknown Speaker  0:41  
Tabitha I am Tabitha I'm a member of satanic San Francisco and a member of the Satanic Temple and I am the proud owner of 13 ghosts on DVD.

Unknown Speaker  0:53  
Not like real ghosts, just like the movie of the ghosts. Oh, cuz

Unknown Speaker  0:57  
it's our 13th episode. Good.

Unknown Speaker  0:59  
I'm sorry, did I not make that kind of clear to you? They

Unknown Speaker  1:01  
just went over my head because you know how I am like that

Unknown Speaker  1:04  
movie. Don't tell anybody.

Unknown Speaker  1:07  
And my name is Simone. I'm also a member of satanic San Francisco and of the Satanic Temple and these are their stories don't don't Chang great fucking love law in order to. So this, you know, as per usual, is a podcast where we are all members of satanic San Francisco and also of the Satanic Temple. But we do not purport to speak for the national organization. We're speaking for ourselves. However, our guests later in the show is an official spokesman spokesperson of TST so he can speak for himself for

Unknown Speaker  1:39  
the first time ever. 25% of this podcast per capita will be officially speaking for the same temple I will be speaking for her chapter, but not for the gelato Yeah.

Unknown Speaker  1:53  
In case you missed our last episode, we did have Lilith star on from Seattle tst. And she had a really great if you missed it, go back and listen to it because she has a lot of really great ideas about how to find your satanic community and how to foster your own local groups.

Unknown Speaker  2:08  
Also, now I really want to satanic enchilada. Thanks Daniel.

Unknown Speaker  2:12  
chinchilla number we're doing after we're done recording.

Unknown Speaker  2:16  
This is a podcast where satanist discuss modern Satanism, its history left leaning political activism and how Satanism relates to current events in pop culture. We're for people who want to learn more about modern Satanism, whether you're a newbie or you're already involved in satanic groups. And speaking of satanic groups, satanic San Francisco has been up to some pretty cool stuff. So Daniel, Tabitha wants to tell us about it.

Unknown Speaker  2:39  
We're making a movie. It's really exciting. I'm behind the camera, which I've never done before. But I make it look really cool because I wear headphones.

Unknown Speaker  2:47  
That's true. Actually. I've got I've got we've got a couple of production photos of you in the headphones. It's adorable. It's wonderful.

Unknown Speaker  2:53  
We are all wearing headphones right now.

Unknown Speaker  2:55  
Adorable. I'm evil and stuff. We're making a evil movie.

Unknown Speaker  3:00  
Oh, okay. You're cute. That's true. You're cute. Evil. Oh,

Unknown Speaker  3:03  
yeah, I forgot I'm cute most of the time. Today when I like 13 ghosts on DVD.

Unknown Speaker  3:08  
You guys are making a short film. That's called what they call God's

Unknown Speaker  3:12  
right. So here. This was an idea that I had back was it last summer? Yeah, I

Unknown Speaker  3:16  
think so. Oh, wow. It's been a while.

Unknown Speaker  3:19  
I think I was thinking about religious horror movies. There's a lot of horror movies like The Conjuring or the exorcist that have not just a specific religious theme and bend to them, but a very particular regressive medieval Catholic vibe going for them. And you know what? I don't even necessarily mind that as a storytelling. Yes. But it did get me to thinking. I started experimenting with the idea of well, what if we made a haunted house movie from a Satanist perspective, and I sat down and I came up with a script treatise about a nice, friendly domestic satanist family who move into a house that's haunted by an angry priest, the ghost of an angry priest, and I sat down with many who has been our guest on the show before and we hammered out a script over many months, and we just started shooting this weekend. It's a DIY affair. The cast and the crew are all us and people we know. And the equipment is the stuff that we've got and the sets are the places we can go but in the Satanist film, he satanist films, yes. So if it turns out well, we'll be pushing it onto YouTube, and we will probably never shut up about it and you'll have the opportunity to see it, whether you like it or not, but we gotta wait to see how it all turns out. We've got one weekend of shooting under our belts.

Unknown Speaker  4:41  
Well, instead of going to like Sundance Film Festival, we'll have to have like the sinister version we'll have like sunset Film Festival

Unknown Speaker  4:48  
moonlight film, that actually will get like a bunch of different like TST chapters or something and be like, make a movie, you know? And then we'll have a screening

Unknown Speaker  4:57  
like a Satanist film festival or beef I think that would be pretty rad.

Unknown Speaker  5:01  
I think so too.

Unknown Speaker  5:03  
I do want to put a pin in that.

Unknown Speaker  5:05  
I do want to point out by the way, Tabitha got kind of drafted as our director of photography on the grounds that I mean we needed one and and many sets like well, you're an artist you probably got a good sense of framing is seeing let's let's try this out and I see you you've just been killing it actually. Oh, come on.

Unknown Speaker  5:25  
Good eye for composition.

Unknown Speaker  5:27  
I mean, yeah.

Unknown Speaker  5:28  
I just think for for for somebody, particularly for somebody who's never been behind the camera before. I know you've done a little bit of acting in front of the camera. But I don't know you take into it be for I forget for anybody curious that title, what they call God's that comes from a line of a poem by Natalie Clifford Barney that I really loved. And the full line goes, what they call sins are our gods what they call Gods we name otherwise, Barney was not a Satanist, by the way, but to Holy shit, you could afford me it's applicable. Yeah. And so I love that so much. And I'm so happy that it made it into the admitted into the movie.

Unknown Speaker  6:05  
Now I'm moving on to our next piece of news in the time between our last recording. And now in the space of a week, wicked grounds had a bit of a situation. Basically, they came out and announced that they were not going to make it they were going to go under they were going to shut their doors. And unless some you know, last minute, if you'll excuse me, Hail Mary came through, then that would be their fate. But because of the support of the community by giving donations through their Patreon page, they were able to keep their doors open.

Unknown Speaker  6:44  
Right wicked grounds, our longtime listeners know is black mass appeals official sponsor, and they are where satanic San Francisco holds our monthly public meetings. And they are really our oldest and most consistent friend for satanic San Francisco. And when they made the very sudden, shocking announcement, they'd be closing forever and a couple of days.

Unknown Speaker  7:03  
Yeah. At the time of announcement, it was like we're closing on Sunday when like three days from now. So

Unknown Speaker  7:09  
yeah, it was like, I think their last day was the Tuesday and I was just like, something done random. And it's like, but just like the space of days, just days. Many days, it was like the day after we recorded our last podcast. And then three days later, they were they were close.

Unknown Speaker  7:24  
But I mean, they put up the call the to the community, and people pitched in and their Patreon was raised enough to be a sustaining, you know, fund for them in hopefully indefinitely.

Unknown Speaker  7:38  
Well, not to be too pointed about it. But I want to point out, this is not the first time we get grounds has almost gone under and this news broke the owner even specifically said on Facebook, don't try to save us it's not meant to be trust us this time. It really is the end. And they only went ahead and even let people even reopened the Patreon somewhat grudgingly, after just so after that they after the demand was so overwhelming. And I don't think anybody really expected them to hit their goal, which was $15,000 a month. But actually there were well over that.

Unknown Speaker  8:11  
Yeah, I will say with the initial announcement that the Patreon was being opened again, to take donations to try and see if they could support them and reopen and keep them open. The tone of the call to action was a little less than optimistic. Yeah. So but whatever trepidation they might have had at the outset, they everyone pulled through, it's staying open.

Unknown Speaker  8:37  
Really excited about that, because I wasn't really looking forward to trying to find a new place to meet. Yeah, yeah,

Unknown Speaker  8:42  
we like it there.

Unknown Speaker  8:44  
Yeah, in fact, Tabitha, you missed the one meeting, we tried to have not at Wicked grounds.

Unknown Speaker  8:49  
I was on the toilet the whole time. It was fun.

Unknown Speaker  8:51  
I don't know. Is that going in here that's going in.

Unknown Speaker  8:55  
She was ill she was under the weather. Very under

Unknown Speaker  9:00  
the weather, we had to find a last minute substitute, which is much harder than you probably think it was turned out to be much harder than I thought it did. And

Unknown Speaker  9:07  
yeah, we found a bookstore, also in San Francisco, a quite a nice bookstore, but just happened to be that on the day that we tried to meet there. There was a reading going on that was quite loud

Unknown Speaker  9:20  
and crowded. Yeah. It was actually my fault because I I didn't warn them that we were going to come in. And I know how bad that sounds, but my attitude about it was I tried 12 Other places and none of them work. And if I tell them then they say no, we are shit out of luck. So I don't think I want to roll those dice today.

Unknown Speaker  9:40  
Yeah. Well, as a matter of fact, because of the reading was so loud, he ended up having to like relocate to a playground on that block. So just, you know, picture it. San Francisco. Dark Night, a big group of Satanists descend upon a playground to talk about their dark doings.

Unknown Speaker  9:57  
It sounds like me in high school.

Unknown Speaker  10:00  
And then we went to a bar and had drinks. Yeah, just like you in high school.

Unknown Speaker  10:02  
No. Well, not in the bar part. I, Let's just not talk about this. Actually, my mom might be listening to this.

Unknown Speaker  10:10  
It was a good night in the end. But same time, I think we're all really grateful to have good grounds back.

Unknown Speaker  10:15  
Yes, indeed. So, speaking of community support, we have some iTunes reviews to read for black mass appeal. Again, just to help raise the visibility of the show to spread the word. Please leave us a review on iTunes or wherever they accept reviews. Let us know what how you think that we're doing, what we could be doing better what you like, what we should be doing more of, et cetera, et cetera, give us five stars. First we have from SkyRise studio, they say massively appealing. being relatively new to Satanism, it's a daunting task to find info that's relatable. Black Mass Appeal makes Satanism approachable by being comforting, inviting, and very, very interesting. Thank you. That's very kind of you to say.

Unknown Speaker  11:00  
I like this one because the words comforting and inviting have never been applied to text. That's true.

Unknown Speaker  11:07  
I think everyone finds comfort when they find out that other people are weirdos like them.

Unknown Speaker  11:11  
Yes. Yes.

Unknown Speaker  11:12  
We are like you.

Unknown Speaker  11:14  
Yes, we are one

Unknown Speaker  11:16  
of us. One of us. gooble Gobble

Unknown Speaker  11:19  
one.

Unknown Speaker  11:20  
We accept her we accept her.

Unknown Speaker  11:23  
The next one we have is from Elvis and 92. And they say always an enjoyable listening and learning podcast. I've been listening to BMA from almost the beginning and I always learned something new. The host contribute enough personal information to endear them to me, but not so much. It's too personal, although sometimes their millennialism shines through. Which I'm trying to not take too much of offense at except I've already I was born in 1983 This is the cusp of millennialism. I prefer like in my Gen X friends have accepted that they would adopt me into being a Gen XOR because I just should have been born 10 years earlier all the music that I like all the movies, the TV shows, I mean, I really how could I have not seen Nine Inch Nails at their downward spiral days I just so our millennialism might shine through but we don't want I don't want to be a millennial.

Unknown Speaker  12:21  
See, I love this one because I am 34 fucking years old, I think like like this comment about being comfortable when he was probably supposed to be a little bit critical. But I'm just so it's like, oh, thank bail. I'm glad I don't. Yes, yes, please, please associate me as closely as possible with younger and more qualified people. You want to hang out. I don't want to hang out with them. But I definitely don't want to be perceived as what's the word? I'm looking for

Unknown Speaker  12:45  
an old fart. Yeah, that's

Unknown Speaker  12:47  
a technical term.

Unknown Speaker  12:48  
I am a grouchy old curmudgeon. I want everyone off my lawn. And I just want to listen to my Nine Inch Nails and tool and smashing pumpkins. In my 1996 bubble that is my apartment.

Unknown Speaker  13:02  
See, I just feel like I'm like the guy at the end of the Last Crusade. I just drank for the wrong cup. But I'm aging that. And you see how dated that reference is? You see how our younger mind heal? Yeah, exactly. See?

Unknown Speaker  13:14  
No, get it?

Unknown Speaker  13:15  
I actually think that's probably true, as far as I'm concerned, because I do have a lot of millennial isms.

Unknown Speaker  13:24  
I also am interested, what exactly do they consider a millennialism? Like, are we asking for gold stars and trophies? Are we all looking at our Instagrams and Snapchats? I mean, I don't even know how to use Snapchat.

Unknown Speaker  13:35  
I was a little earlier, but not right now.

Unknown Speaker  13:38  
Okay, we found them all until we found.

Unknown Speaker  13:42  
I don't know. I mean, it just I think because of because I spent a lot of time gaming and I the internet culture that I'm surrounded by, I think has a lot. Like I take a lot more of the stuff that I think people consider as millennial aspects. And it just is kind of ingrained in me without me really realizing it. I don't have any specific examples.

Unknown Speaker  14:02  
And it's interesting I saw recently like this thing off of Reddit that had like the different categories of different millennials and like just pictures of what you identify with your childhood. That's what millennial type you are. And like, I think my type the early millennial type. One of my first viral internet memories is that you know that end of the world cartoon where there's like, like fires and missiles I want but I'm really tired. I wasn't taking a nap and then Pharisee miss out for that. So that reference you're with us shit. You're watching like Logan Paul. Be a dick on YouTube. You're You're young and

Unknown Speaker  14:40  
yeah, man. Let's not actually go very far into that because it hurts my soul all the time. All right,

Unknown Speaker  14:47  
well, let's move on to a different kind of social media and let's go to the news. So our news item today is about social media. It is about Twitter. And if you've been online in the Satan community, you probably know what we're about to talk about. Long story short, Lucian grieves, the co founder of TST got his Twitter presence where he's using it to communicate with other Satanists and also communicate with the outside world and sometimes the outside world talks back reading from an article on Newsweek, Satanic Temple threatens to sue Twitter over religious discrimination. The Satanic Temple, an activist group based in Salem, Massachusetts, again, activist group Well, let it go for now, is threatening to sue Twitter for religious discrimination after one of its co founders had his Twitter account permanently suspended. Lucian grieves the satanic temples co founder and spokesman said his Twitter account was permanently suspended without any notice after we asked his followers to report a tweet that called for the Satanic Temple to be burned down. Well, we're talking to lawyers today. Greve said Friday about whether he planned to take legal action on Wednesday, a woman with a Twitter handle of you know what it doesn't matter. Yes, it really doesn't. posted a tweet saying the Satanic Temple is evil and should be burned to the ground. I doubt nothing anymore. I have in Salem ma opened a satanic church last year exclamation point, exclamation point, exclamation point. The Witches are evil. And Satanists and Colts are very real. W a church with a church like this should not exist. Burn it, blame Hillary. I don't care. It's good to go. If anyone likes this idea, they are f k Ed. She posted real eloquent. The post was later shared by former child actor Corey Feldman, who complained about cool satanic nut bags. In response, scream share the social media posts and asked his followers to report the tweet calling for arson. His tweet was liked and shared hundreds of times on Twitter. But on Thursday evening, Greve saw that his Twitter account had been suspended. Twitter permanently suspended My Account outright. At first, they didn't give me a reason. And then they put this Amin Satanic Temple account on a seven day suspension because it was associated with an account that had been permanently suspended. Greaves told Newsweek. But a bit above, basically, you know, we none of his tweets had violated Twitter's Terms of Service, all he had done was requests the reporting of a tweet that did violate the terms of service. And his account was still suspended immediately and without a given reason. Now, happy ending to this story, I guess, is that about a week later, it was reinstated. No reason given just all of a sudden he got a notification saying that. It's back on. It's back on folks. So now he is back available on Twitter at Lucian grieves. So

Unknown Speaker  18:01  
yay. That there's there's three things that I want to say about this slightly weird story. Lucian grieves with the with the comments about potentially suing Twitter was his argument was that if any other religious group is eating if somebody threatened to burn down any church or mosque or any other religiously affiliated building in America and Twitter won't take that much more seriously, because the same temple they didn't seem to care, right. Point number two, this woman who made this comment, I've seen her twitter feed. She's very unwell I.

Unknown Speaker  18:34  
Yeah, I took a look at all of them to because I went to go report that tweet myself because clearly, like if you're trying to incite people to violence, it is against their terms of service. They're not taking care of some other people like a name or inciting violence with other countries with nuclear weapons. I wonder who that could be. But anyway, yeah, the reports fell upon deaf ears at least for a time.

Unknown Speaker  18:59  
One more thing for the record. Yes. Corey Feldman, you heard that correctly. Corey Feldman has some sort of, he's got some sort of hang up about satanist or the tang temple that I don't quite follow. I do want to say, I've heard some people characterize Corey Feldman as a quote crazy Christian. I read his Twitter too. And he wants everybody to know that he is actually Jewish. So

Unknown Speaker  19:21  
there Yeah,

Unknown Speaker  19:23  
the record is that straight?

Unknown Speaker  19:24  
I am unclear on his skin in the game, if you will. But it doesn't, it doesn't really matter.

Unknown Speaker  19:32  
Well, and I know he's got kind of a like a cult following. Like, he's got a bunch of people that are really, you know, hung up on his words and stuff, which I understand you know, him going about, you know, trying to get things done about, you know, sexual harassment and stuff in the in the entertainment industry, right. Which I totally am about, but I just, I don't know if getting himself involved in Crack pot tweet Twitter arguments is really the way to go with this. Well, that could be said for a lot of people who are getting involved into a crackpot Twitter arguments. That's true. I also feel like that Twitter only ever does anything about these things when people get banned or whatever, when either a lot of people's talk about it, like a lot of very famous people talk about it, or the lawyer, lawyer start coming out of the cracks, then all of a sudden, these things just kind of go away.

Unknown Speaker  20:29  
Well, the thing that's appalling to me is that like, you look back not that long ago, and you get what's his name?

Unknown Speaker  20:34  
Meelo, MI, Mo, yada, yada. Yes, who was

Unknown Speaker  20:38  
kind of whipping his followers up into a frenzy to attack the actress Leslie Jones, who was in the Ghostbusters movie, calling her you know, all sorts of derogatory names, and it took Twitter a long time to do anything in response. And yet, on the flip side, Lucian calls for not harassment but just reporting via Twitter's you know, methodology, reporting this tweet as being a violation, and that gets him banned immediately. No warning, just ban.

Unknown Speaker  21:10  
There's another there's a more recent example, if you're a fan of raison a, she's a comedian from New York and she co hosts a podcast called misandry, which I'm a huge fan of that sounds right up my alley, which is it, which is a satire of what anti feminists think feminism is about. And the show is hilarious. As you can imagine, with a title like that she makes some off color comments on Twitter, sometimes, they have an entire episode about the weird, arbitrary double standard of they will say something that will get them in trouble. And they will sometimes find examples of almost verbatim the exact same thing by somebody else, often towards them, which they could not manage to get discipline. We just could not manage to get disciplined. So it seems like they're just they're just shooting in the dark with how they enforce Twitter's Terms of Services, if indeed they do at all.

Unknown Speaker  21:59  
Yeah, it's really the arbitrary nature, that's the most infuriating like, on the one hand, if they had just applied these, you know, terms and these consequences to everyone equally, then okay, fine. But yeah, it was consistent. Yeah, just

Unknown Speaker  22:14  
like, you can't just banned people for no reason. Like, in some people's really obvious, this is why you're banned, and then you just show the tweet, okay, this is why, but at least have some sort of reason. Well, at least people can say, Well, okay, then I would like to appeal this. And these are the reasons why you can't appeal anything if you don't have an answer.

Unknown Speaker  22:35  
Lucia did say that eventually they told him that they had they had taken action against him for quote, targeted harassment and which is Yeah, parsing quite what that could be

Unknown Speaker  22:45  
considering that the original tweet was targeted harassment towards the Satanic Temple,

Unknown Speaker  22:51  
right. Again, like from a perspective, I suppose I could see that him retweeting this tweet and asking people to take an action that from some perspectives would be against this person. Okay, maybe. However, like I said, he wasn't calling for her harassment he wasn't calling for people to talk to her interact with her bother her in any fashion. He was calling for people to report the tweet through Twitter's not legal but like, you know, proper channels. He was following the rules. And if following the rules to report his own harassment is somehow harassing back then. Then we're living in upside down crazy town.

Unknown Speaker  23:32  
By the way, just as long as it came up, I want to point out that on the off chance that Marcia and Ray for the MS injury podcast or listening to this, I'd really love to have them on the show. Your show is a wonderful aesthetic, whether they realize that or not. But that out, they're just gonna put it out.

Unknown Speaker  23:48  
Like feminism, man. It's the future. Yeah. So Lucia has been reinstated on Twitter and you can get at him there. Slide into those DMS. Gross. I'm trying to use the millennial speak. I don't know I'm doing

Unknown Speaker  24:06  
Oh, really? It'll shine through sometimes don't worry. Okay.

Unknown Speaker  24:09  
So when we come back, we will move on to an introduction of our main topic.

Unknown Speaker  24:26  
And so on today's show on our 13th episode, it's a special episode, we're going to have the Satanic Temple co founder Lucian grieves on to discuss the case of Mary Doe versus Eric regions. Probably not saying that right? At all, otherwise known as the Missouri abortion rights case, in case you're unfamiliar, this is the case of a woman who became pregnant she happened to me a member of the Satanic Temple, she went to seek an abortion, and she ran up against Missouri's burdensome, unnecessary requirements fucking bullshit. Yeah, put it another way.

Unknown Speaker  25:02  
I was going to say onerous, but I like hers better.

Unknown Speaker  25:05  
We're a variable for source here. Yeah. And so she ran up against all these terrible medieval, unnecessary requirements to get what is constitutionally her right. So in order to kind of share with you guys the facts of the case, in case you're not familiar, I'm going to read the docket summary, to just lay out the the bare facts, and then we'll get a little bit more into the commentary, and then we'll talk with Lucian about it. Reading from the case summaries, Mary Doe versus Eric Grecians. At al Cole County, constitution and statutory challenges to the state's informed consent law. A green county resident known as Mary Doe became pregnant in February 2015 and began making plans the next month to have an abortion. As such, she said that she knew she would be subject to the state's informed consent law which impart required her to acknowledge receipt of a booklet containing certain information she believes is untrue, and based not on science, but on a political and religious point of view. Specifically, the booklet prepared by the state's Department of Health and Senior Senior Services pursuant to state law states that human life begins at conception and that abortion will terminate the life of a separate, unique living human being. When doe arrived at the St. Louis clinic in May 2015. To obtain an abortion, she gave her doctors a letter advising that she adheres to the principles of the Satanic Temple and has sincerely held religious beliefs different than the information in the informed consent booklet. Specifically, her letter advise that she has deeply held religious beliefs that a non viable fetus is not a separate human being but as part of her body and that abortion of a non viable fetus does not terminate the life of a separate unique living human being. Her letter further absolve the doctors of the responsibility to deliver the booklet to her or to wait 72 hours before performing her abortion advising them she voluntarily freely and without coercion was choosing to have the abortion that day. The clinic however, refused her request. Instead as required by law. It gave doe an ultrasound and the opportunity to listen to the fetal heartbeat. The clinic made doe acknowledge receipt of the booklet and advised it would not perform the abortion until after the statutory waiting period. She returned after the time had lapsed and received the abortion. Doe subsequently challenged the informed consent law under both the state's Religious Freedom Restoration Act and the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the federal constitution. The circuit court dismiss Joe those lawsuit doe appeals. This appeal presents several questions for the court. One is whether doe sufficiently stated the claim under the state's Religious Freedom Restoration Act. related issues include whether the informed consent law substantially restricts dose free exercise of religion serves as the government's compelling interest in obtaining her informed consent to an abortion and is the least restrictive means of obtaining such consent. Another question is whether the informed consent law violates the Establishment Clause. related issues include whether Missouri's political branches of government are permitted to express a position about when life begins whether the informed consent law constitutes a religious tenant promoting a religious belief, and whether the informed consent law discriminates against religion, or among religions. And that's the dry ass version. But those are the facts of the case.

Unknown Speaker  28:19  
Almost fell asleep. Oh, so rarer, I feel like, well, we

Unknown Speaker  28:23  
got to lay out the fact it's

Unknown Speaker  28:24  
true. It's very important. I just feel like the stuff, like give you all these pamphlets and stuff, and I want to just use them as kindling.

Unknown Speaker  28:35  
That's not a bad idea, actually.

Unknown Speaker  28:37  
I mean, from it, from my perspective, from I think a lot of our perspective, it's incredibly burdensome on someone who's just trying to seek their constitutionally protected medical service

Unknown Speaker  28:51  
patronizing as fuck as well. Now, before we get dilution, there's one thing that I want to talk about to make sure that our listeners realize that we're sensitive to Lucien Greaves did in a debate at the University of Missouri, and I think it was 2016 about this exact same case. And right before the front of his comments, he pointed out wasted on stage, he says, Hey, look at this, we've got two men, once again, discussing reproductive rights, ain't that a hell of a thing? And he told the audience, you know, this was short notice I was the one who was available. It was either I come down here and talk about this or we not have the conversation. And so here I am. On the same note, here we are having a show about an abortion rights case. And our guest is a man. And the loose Lucian grieves is here talking about this because this case is very important to the Satanic Temple. And we wanted to talk with him because this conference, these cases important in this conversation is important. And we didn't want to miss out on that opportunity. That said, everybody realizes this is a case and this is a legal question about women's bodies and about women's rights. And on that note, we've also got here a blog that Jex Blackmore, also a spokesperson for this tech temple, wrote about the Missouri case in 2016. We're gonna take a couple of comments from that. Just do Just to illuminate some of the finer points Tabitha,

Unknown Speaker  30:02  
alright, so I'm just going to kind of go verbatim from this. When Mary discovered she was pregnant, she made a decision to have an abortion because it was the best for her and her family. There's only one abortion clinic in Missouri, so she had no choice but to travel several hundreds of miles to the nearest clinic, which she did by bus with her child, she was forced to request time off from work and pay for transportation and a hotel. When she arrived at the clinic. She explained her religious views and presented an exemption form to waive the ultrasound, reproductive booklet and waiting period. However, state law prevented her from obtaining an abortion in accordance with her beliefs. Instead, Mary was required to pay $500 and be offered an ultrasound an opportunity to listen to the fetal heartbeat which by the way, that's so fucked up. She was told that life begins at conception and that abortion is murder. If she maintains her belief that abortion is not murder, she will be punished sent away for three days where she will incur additional costs and hotel in the hopes that she will feel enough guilt and shame under the state indoctrination efforts to continue her pregnancy. Fuck you. Okay. It continue. That's

Unknown Speaker  31:20  
not verbatim.

Unknown Speaker  31:21  
Yeah, sorry. That wasn't editorializing. Yeah. Moving on. The state claims that the informed consent law and mandating waiting mandated waiting period is in place to help women make difficult decisions and prevent the number of abortions. However, a national survey of abortion patients conducted in 2008 by the Guttmacher Institute found that 92% of women reported that they had made up their mind to have an abortion prior to making an appointment. What about the waiting period? This too is ineffective at reducing abortion rates. In Mississippi, Multiple studies have found that the requirement has been associated with a decline in the state's abortion rates and an increase in the number of residents going out of state for an abortion. You don't say yeah, if the intention is truly to reduce unwanted pregnancies in order to put an end to abortion in America, there are some quantifiable solutions, improve contraceptive access, education and economic prospects. However, none of these measures have been pursued. With this information, it becomes painfully clear that the state's intentions are purely coercive. The Missouri legislation is intended to promote a religious belief that abortion is murder. And if women seek to that if women seek to obtain an abortion, they should be ashamed and punished. Do we want to live in an America that forces women to suffer unnecessarily under the moral dictates of the state when making personal decisions about their future and well being being of their families? Is it necessary to traumatize women in an attempt to reduce abortion rates? When there are so many more effective ways to reduce unwanted pregnancy? Are Mary's beliefs as a Satanist? I'll be it untraditional undeserving of protection under the law. These are difficult questions we implore you to consider and we wait in anticipation for the state of Missouri to decide where they stand.

Unknown Speaker  33:28  
So in short, because the state wants to shame women into continuing their pregnancies. And they're just basically doing all that they can to block access and to essentially punish people who are seeking out this medical procedure.

Unknown Speaker  33:45  
The state wants to preach he wants to preach to women who are seeking a legal and private medical treatment.

Unknown Speaker  33:51  
Yep, totally disregarding her views on the matter her deeply held sincere religious belief and

Unknown Speaker  33:57  
this is very disheartening, just reading this it was tough on my heart.

Unknown Speaker  34:01  
And so because obviously the Satanic Temple supports Mary Doe and her lawsuit based upon her religious beliefs as a Satanist against these restrictions, we figured it was a good topic for us to to get into about the religious rights of Satanists and how how these things play out on a larger legal political scale.

Unknown Speaker  34:23  
And on that note, we'll be back in a minute with Satanic Temple co founder illusion Greaves.

Unknown Speaker  34:28  
I'm going to try not to freak out a little bit dramatic drumroll

Unknown Speaker  34:31  
you get Jenny freak out while we're on break

Unknown Speaker  34:34  
Um, okay, but we got to start really quick. Okay, get

Unknown Speaker  34:36  
your freaks out now.

Unknown Speaker  34:52  
And welcome back to black mass appeal. Today we are launching into our main topic which is about the case of Mary Doe versus Erica cretins at all the Missouri abortion case. As you might have heard as mentioned before, we have with us Lucian grieves, who is the co founder of the Satanic Temple. Just in case any of our listeners are not familiar with him now we do have mostly satanist listeners, but we do have some non satanist listeners as well. Hi there, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself, who you are and your position within the Satanic Temple.

Unknown Speaker  35:29  
I'm Lucian grieves. I'm co founder of the Satanic Temple and spokesperson for the Satanic Temple.

Unknown Speaker  35:35  
Now, before we started this section, Daniel and I both brought our listeners up to speed by summarizing the facts of the case. We quoted the actual docket. And we also talked about Jack's Blackmores blog on the topic. Now that everyone has kind of a base knowledge of what this case is about, we'd love to hear a little bit more about your position. And what the Satanic Temple is is doing in terms of supporting the activism around this hearing.

Unknown Speaker  36:06  
Well, we reproductive rights issue is one that's just overburdened now with religious opinion and belief and religious legislation. Oftentimes, they try to dress it up and say that there's no, there's no religious ramifications towards the certain laws that make abortion prohibitive in different states, but you will get the people who are passing them and they're very much explicitly doing that to pander to a religious base. And they're doing it based upon their own religious convictions. And now that we've come in challenging restrictions on abortion in Missouri, we see these kind of comical replies from the state, claiming that it couldn't possibly be due to religious conviction that they have these types of restrictions to begin with, because it was these restrictions were passed by a body of in the government, not not not individuals, is apparently the thinking. There was some really bizarre kind of kind of claims made in the in the motions for dismissal against our case by by the state and I believe federally as well. Well,

Unknown Speaker  37:11  
jumping into the whole kind of scientific aspects of it. None of these requirements that are put forth by this Missouri law actually have a basis in science. So could you speak a little bit more to the fact that if it's not based in science, then clearly it is a religious moral judgment.

Unknown Speaker  37:31  
There's an interesting YouTube video where I'm a governor candidate in Missouri. This was like, one two years ago, I lose track very easily. But in any case, I was setting forward what I was speaking first, during this debate, it was at the University of Missouri University, he was a pro life candidate. And he was arguing, I guess, supposedly, he was going to argue in defense of the informed consent laws, and I'm not sure how much background you gave, but challenging in Missouri are these informed consent laws that they put forward, which require that a woman receive these materials, these state mandated propaganda materials about what abortion is and what it means, and then wait 72 hours before she can receive an abortion. And the idea is that she'll have considered these materials that try to dissuade her from having an abortion. And these materials mandate that the woman be given this literature that says that life begins at conception and that abortion will kill a unique and individual human being.

Unknown Speaker  38:38  
Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the impression that the the idea they have in their heads with those, these booklets they make women read is that it's gonna be like the Jack Chick style fantasy, where at the last second, she'll, you know, they'll send her home for a couple of days, and then she'll see the light and then you know, her entire her entire opinion about her body and about reproductive rights and her own future and family will pull one ad and you know, Mahalo, Louis is on Hi, am I am am I getting that about? Right?

Unknown Speaker  39:06  
I think you're right. But I think that's the least sinister outcome they're looking for their work worse is that the 72 hour waiting period, in a state that only has one facility that provides abortions could prevent a woman from being able to get the procedure at all, because she might have to get daycare, she's gonna have to find a way to travel. I mean, that could be a six hour trip within state to go to the one facility that can do it. And then to go to take that kind of trip and then come back. That's prohibitive for a lot of women who work and have low income of daycare, whatever the whatever the problem is, so I think part of the thinking also is that the informed consent materials being used to justify 72 hour waiting period will make In abortion impossible to get for certain people, and in, you know, getting back to the the science of it and the argument that I was putting forward to the Missouri Governor candidate, these propositions are being put forth in the informed consent materials that life begins at conception that abortion kills a unique and individual human being were items of religious opinion. And these or at least they were items of opinion that contradicted our own beliefs. And so they couldn't be elevated to scientific fact, than our religious claim should stand. And I thought that this could have been a very interesting debate. But if you look it up, you only have to watch the beginning where I, I set the groundwork, and then he replies by talking about how he was ill at one point and people three people prayed over him, and then he, he got better. And then, you know, we brought him to Christ and all of that. It completely evaded the entire topic entirely. But I think that's kind of par for the course for specially in local politics now, because they have nothing really. Yeah, nothing really to say and no real, no real knowledge of what we're even talking about at all just use anything to pivot to, to an entirely different message.

Unknown Speaker  41:20  
So on that note, I guess most of us have probably never sat down and done any serious research or any serious reading about what, if anything, does the the the best current science tell us about when life begins? Or is that even a scientific question at all, because that's important to this case, if they want to be if they want to be able to make the case that this is a secular, non arbitrary decision that they are basing these laws on, they need something to back that up.

Unknown Speaker  41:49  
Well, I feel there is science on this issue, and a lot of where you stand on the science and what the science means to you, it has to do with your religious beliefs as well, of course, if you feel that there's some kind of homunculus within people or some kind of ghostly soul that embodies your consciousness, prior to, to that consciousness being realized within your nervous system, then there's there's really no argument you can give, but if you're looking at somebody's humanity as being tied to their, their neural circuitry, their their their ability to be conscious and to perceive things like pain, then then then there is science behind that and over when a fetus could possibly feel pain, or or have any, any shins, but certainly, certainly before the quickening, you're not dealing with any of that, you know, you still have a, you still have this very nasty and life that that that may have sensation in so far is cellular response, that type of thing, but you're not really you don't really have any perception, you can't argue for anything, anything of the type. So I feel that within the current legal standards for receiving an abortion where abortion is fully legal, I think they're, they're perfectly rational. I think when you start protecting the lives of things that don't have any higher cerebral functioning, don't have the ability to perceive, then you're you're dealing with questions of very hypothetical things of prospective life. And, and I think I honestly think it all comes down to the notion of the soul in when a fetus becomes in sold in when it is not. And you see them trying to change the goalposts all the time as to as to what defines life. The idea that unique DNA is what defines life. It doesn't really say much about the fact that you really just have a genetic blueprint at that point, it could branch off and become twins. So that kind of takes away from the argument that it's a unique individual human life. DNA is never defined life, there's unique DNA and tumors. So none of that really none of that really stands up to scrutiny. But it was kind of funny. The one of the religious litigation groups, I forget which one now, but one of the ones that often gets involved in pro life legislation and in litigation, they wrote in amicus brief in favor of the States position for the case that's going to the Missouri Supreme Court on the 23rd

Unknown Speaker  44:35  
I'm gonna guess that was the Thomas Moore society. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, it

Unknown Speaker  44:39  
was the Thomas Moore society in hilariously enough they were taking the position that our point of view just wasn't scientific and theirs was and their their point of view was scientific, because they were saying they were making this argument about unique DNA, and they were acting all exasperated that we would take this position of religious zealotry again, CES is hard science. I mean, it was funny enough that they wrote up his brief and had this idiotic argument. But what was funny about it is that they, they ran off and in, wrote up a press release about it and tried to generate all this media about their brief, and then they filed it too late, and it didn't matter anyway.

Unknown Speaker  45:21  
The devils in the details, go. Going back to what you said a second ago, let's just be clear here is not only not only are they trying to defend the legal rights of this ghost soul as the term that you use, but you're trying to defend the rights of this hypothetical spiritual concept over the rights of an actual living woman who was an American citizen, and has all of you who unambiguously has full rights under the law.

Unknown Speaker  45:45  
Right. And they're trying to do it in such a way that they're claiming their religious beliefs have nothing to do with it. And I mean, obviously, that that's very transparent that that they do. But I loved the state's motion against us as the state filed their opposition. And in one part, they they they argued that our plaintiff is merely cloaking our political beliefs in the mantle of religious faith in order to avoid laws of general applicability she finds imprudent or offensive, and I thought, Well, isn't that the fucking pot calling the kettle black? You know, when you look

Unknown Speaker  46:20  
good, they're really good at that. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker  46:23  
Right that speaking over,

Unknown Speaker  46:24  
it's funny how these things are only an issue when we come into the scene all the sudden people are very concerned about the politicization of religion.

Unknown Speaker  46:33  
Speaking of religious beliefs, our our listeners know all about the seven tenants, we talk about it all the time, two of them are particularly cogent to this case, break that down for us, if you don't mind.

Unknown Speaker  46:44  
Right. There's there's two tenants that we really call into call into play. When it comes to these cases, it's the same really for the the anti corporal punishment campaign we have against beating children as a punitive measure in schools. But particularly one's body is inviolable subject to one's own will alone, and believe should conform to our best scientific understanding of the world. And we should never, we should take care to never distort scientific facts to fit our beliefs. These are, these are the two we cite in our in our feelings about about abortion right now. And I think they're very clearly relevant to this case. And as I like to point out, you know, you have a lot of Religious Freedom Restoration Act cases, in play, Christian oppression, Christian privilege, Christian rights to deny service, the rights of a Christian corporation to deny health care benefits that include contraceptives. And nobody ever asks what relationship this has to Scripture, or religious practice. I find it also very funny that those questions come up when it's us, and only when it's us, right? I mean, when when are you going to bring it up all the time? But Hobby Lobby Where Where did anybody ask how to where they justified any relationship to, to Christian religion, at least in any traditional sense?

Unknown Speaker  48:13  
They want your baby. They want Hobby Lobby, to hire your babies, to work for them. Don't crack them? Or you know, don't get birth control. Just give give us your babies?

Unknown Speaker  48:24  
Well, you know, you're even hard pressed to find anything in the Bible that justifies an anti abortion position. That's true. It doesn't just claim seems to be whatever you claim it is. At this point. It does

Unknown Speaker  48:35  
seem that these religious freedom laws tend to the implied end of that sentence, it's religious freedom for Christian folk, to practice their beliefs, not so much everybody else, which is obviously a clear violation of the Establishment Clause.

Unknown Speaker  48:51  
Well, we everybody, it seemed like there was a real kind of perceptual shift surrounding the Satanic Temple after the election, at the point where, where Obama was in office, people seem to view us as these happy Merry Pranksters having a good time and at best people viewed us as this kind of clever, clever ploy, or whatever. But once once Trump was elected, you can see the mood really change and this isn't, you know, people, I think a lot more people realize this isn't funny anymore, that the theocrats are really on the move and something needs to be done in this fight is very real. And it's it's not funny and it never was. But we The thing is, we have the law on our side. We have a very solid case to be made. But you just never know, in an environment where you have somebody is idiotic and incompetent is Trump putting his theocratic friends in federal judge positions you just can't count on, on adjust ruling. Doesn't matter if the law is on your side or not. We can't have an absolute confidence that will win, even in even in, in circumstances where we built an ironclad case, you know, they could just create precedent in which they devised another means that trying to give one religious voice a certain privilege.

Unknown Speaker  50:16  
Now, I'm glad you brought that up, because you mentioned earlier in the show about the the kind of absurd backflips and contortions that the other side sometimes has to resort to in these cases, and you hear this shit, and it sounds crazy. Do you think, Oh, that'll be laughed out of a court. But then we do see examples. The Hobby Lobby case is one you brought up earlier, where the crazy seemingly the most bizarre argument carries the day somehow? How do you think that happens? Is it just because a crazy argument, given the right context and in the slightly alien environment of a supreme court hearing can be made to sound reasonable? Or is that actually, when that happens? Is it a case of just one side has an agenda and the arbitrator agrees and they put one over on us? What do you think happens when that when that goes down?

Unknown Speaker  51:08  
I think you can go either way. I think sometimes you do see cases where a judge really wants to send a message and is really trying to realign the laws with their own way of thinking and the least the less qualified the judge, I think the more likely they are to do something like that. And like everybody in Trump's cabinet, I think is his judge his choices a federal judge who will be wildly unqualified for what they're doing as well. But you take even the Supreme Court with this Citizens United case. And it's worse than you might have thought if you just read the facts of the case, but this Supreme Court to take a case that they didn't have to rule so broadly as they did to change the laws so drastically. They just decided to do that of their own freewill. And they obviously had that is to say they could have they had a very narrow case they could have ruled on facially and they decided to broaden it entirely to to be more more substantial ruling that would affect our rights. And the way in the way campaigning goes from here on in. So they obviously had a real agenda there. So it is, it is frightening when you get unqualified judges. And Scalia was not not the worst of them. You know, everybody was kind of happy when that slob died and for good reason. But when you have somebody like Alito, you know, we're not we're not into you have Trump in office, you we still have serious problems,

Unknown Speaker  52:41  
and potentially more if he gets to a point. Anybody else? Yeah. And

Unknown Speaker  52:45  
I'll never forgive the Obama administration for not having fought to put somebody in the Supreme Court before having left office and just letting that one go. I mean, there was just far too much at stake to let it go. And that's what they did.

Unknown Speaker  52:59  
Well, they were they think we're coasting on the assumption that Hillary would win. And they were not alone on that. I'll tell you. And here we all are. But I'll get in trouble for saying this. But on the subject of Antonin Scalia, I was sleeping with my Scalia Voodoo Doll underneath my pillow for years. I never thought it would really take but here we are.

Unknown Speaker  53:22  
I saw something online from some wild conspiracy theorist who was obsessed with me for a while, who had it in his mind that that Scalia and I were in collusion with one another somehow.

Unknown Speaker  53:36  
Oh, I've got a look that one up. That'd be a fun sitcom. A new Odd Couple. Well, so this episode is coming out the day of the hearing Tuesday, January 23. And we have here that if anyone wants to help out that they could check out religious reproductive rights.com Could you tell us a little bit more about them?

Unknown Speaker  53:58  
Yeah, I guess. You know, we've been doing outreach to try to get financial support for the case because it is so expensive to litigate these things when we did not get pro bono support. I'll never understand and in what we're doing some of the cases I thought we'd easily get pro bono support on we haven't and then other things there's lawyers clamoring to to work for free for us on certain things and

Unknown Speaker  54:25  
is that just because it's a reproductive rights issue is it's sort of too hot for some people to want to touch.

Unknown Speaker  54:31  
Uh, you know, a lot of lawyers are are very uncreative. And I would think that if something hasn't been litigated before, that would be all the all the more reason to do it. I would think that's where the, the actions at and that's what would keep the job interesting. But the fact that this is such a unique kind of case, prevented a lot of the lawyers we talked to from wanting to touch it. Part of the problem also is that once we had somebody who is a member of the seat In a temple who was seeking an abortion, and in needed to go through the 72 hour waiting period in the state denied our written exemption form from that we needed to secure our our legal counsel right away, we had a limited time which we could file. So when we didn't find pro bono support right away, we need to move towards towards paid lawyers. So that's where we're at now.

Unknown Speaker  55:24  
And so people can donate to the Reproductive Rights Fund, which I believe covers not only this, but has some other initiatives as well. Yeah, well,

Unknown Speaker  55:33  
I mean, anywhere we're offering our exemptions from restrictions upon abortion, and those those laws are being passed more and more and more and more different states. And certainly, I think either way, the ruling goes on the 23rd. For us, more people are going to be aware that this is what we're doing. So we want to build up our our legal fund to protect the rights of our membership, whoever this comes up for, because as I said, Once something like this happens, we need to act quickly. So we don't want to be, we don't want to be unprepared. Hey, here's a

Unknown Speaker  56:13  
question for you. When when I see people sometimes on the internet making when they when they talk about this case, or about a lot of public asking the Satanic Temple has done, they'll use what I think is kind of a slightly naive term, they'll use terms like a legal religion, or recognized a little bit religion or something along those lines. And I think some folks think like the federal government has got like a big book or a hard drive full of all the churches that they recognize is valid, and the reasons why. And, of course, that's not how it works. I think I've heard you comment in the past that, for the most part, courts and the federal government like to avoid specifically designating what is and is not a religion, or what is is not a religious belief, if they can help it. Correct me if I'm wrong, that being the case, when we do need to sit down and make an argument for this as our sincerely held religious belief. And here's why. And here's why that's relevant under the law. How do you even approach that?

Unknown Speaker  57:08  
Yeah, I mean, there's there's really no, no way they can approach those questions to us. Now, that wouldn't be contradictory to the way they've handled any of the other religious liberty cases in regards to in regards to Christians claiming their rights to to deny somebody service, you know, deny health care, benefits, whatever it is, they're claiming, at this point. Nobody asks them how often they go to the church. If they've ever read the Bible, what what does it really mean? I mean, do you have to be born into your religion? I mean, there's all kinds of reasons now for the courts to not start asking those questions. It doesn't mean they won't with us, especially with going to be populating the federal courts, as I've said. But there again, they're still subject to the standard litigation prog process, and may not really have the opportunity to jump into those kinds of questions anyway, for the most part, you know, those questions about authenticity, things like that are just brought to us. In conversations like this, when we're talking to press that's kind of arguments that are held out in the public. That said, there have been rulings against people who pull this Flying Spaghetti Monster shit. I would like to say what, you know, I don't have a problem with them. But I do like people to know, we are entirely different from that, you know, we're not, we're not just a satirical group, putting themselves out there to just say, look at the idiocy of the other side or whatever,

Unknown Speaker  58:39  
which is funny, but you know, we hear that it's either people take it super seriously. Or we're a bunch of people with colanders. On our heads. It's like no, in between.

Unknown Speaker  58:49  
Right. Yeah, yeah, no, no middle ground. But even there, in those cases, where they've ruled against Flying Spaghetti Monster churches, you'd have to say that the spaghetti monster adherence in these cases have been particularly bad. And then they've I think, in the cases they've been ruled against, they've been litigated pro se that is to say that people have represented themselves in the court. And in I tried to dissuade anybody who thinks they have a clever idea and want to bring it to court from representing themselves. What's

Unknown Speaker  59:20  
the old saying that whoever represents themselves has a fool for a client?

Unknown Speaker  59:24  
Yeah, no, it's very, very true. We've seen these people get these these ideas where they think they have a clever religious liberty case. And in our past, they're just going to set bad precedent because they don't know what they're arguing. They don't know what the precedents are. In often they just, they just build a body of denial against those kinds of claims that then become this one kind of edifice that's used against future claims, even if it's directly rate related or not, and it just doesn't help you know, it just doesn't help at all.

Unknown Speaker  59:54  
You heard it though, folks, the Flying Spaghetti Monster needs better lawyers. You But you said a second ago about the risk of building bad precedent. There are high stakes when you do something like this, there is always a little bit of risk, no matter how sound do you think your case is? How do you decide when it's when it's time to take the plunge? Or do you decide? Or is it a case where it's like, well, you know, stuff like this doesn't come along every day. So we're going for it?

Unknown Speaker  1:00:21  
Well, sometimes it depends on the case, something like this, I think we would litigate one way or the other, you know, we have a plaintiff, she, you know, she was burdened by this. And we just have to have to hope for the best and the legal process. And other things, we're kind of able to pick our venue, you know, when it comes to invocations, because oftentimes, our chapters will want to challenge the invocation policies at their city councils or whatever that allow for prayers to open up the meetings, and that the governing body has to remain viewpoint neutral. So if they're going to allow a Christian prayer before the city council meeting, you know, the idea is that they have to allow a representative from the Satanic Temple to offer an invocation as well. And but we also have to count on being turned down. So those are entirely ignorant as to what the laws really are. And they take Greece versus Galloway, which said, Yes, you can have religious invocations, and which explicitly said that you can't, you have to remain viewpoint neutral and what invocations are given. But they took that ruling to mean that, you know, Christian prayers were okay, if they wanted them. And in maybe nobody else needs apply, then in case enough of this goes on around the nation, that if we're denied, we can choose where we'll litigate this, you know, which which circuit is more amenable to our arguments, which venue is best to bring it up and where we're most likely to prevail, which will then set precedent for other circuits and around the nation to show that we've established that, that we can indeed do what we want to do in that, in that litigation against another city council is likely to result in our, our being victorious against them. So we do have those considerations. I get very annoyed, though, by people who claim sometimes that by us, being activists at all, we're just kind of throwing gasoline on the fire of the theocratic advance is though if we, if we would just remain quiet and take as a given that we have our rights and not exercise them, then we'd be better off. We could all just pretend we have our rights as long as we're we're not engaged with them.

Unknown Speaker  1:02:39  
Doesn't that sound familiar?

Unknown Speaker  1:02:40  
Right. Right. If we if we could just shut up everything would be so much better, because everything was coming along so well, until we until we pissed everybody off that that kind of attitude, I really don't have any toleration for

Unknown Speaker  1:02:54  
Schrodinger is is a great cat owner, as long as he doesn't open the box, right.

Unknown Speaker  1:03:01  
Go going back to this case, specifically, what do you foresee as the most optimal outcome for the Satanic Temple? And what are the ramifications if if there we are successful? And what are the ramifications if we are not so much? Well, it's funny, of course, we

Unknown Speaker  1:03:19  
want to want to win. And in that would be the best outcome that the court finds in our favor, finds that we have a legitimate religious exemption from restrictions upon abortion or otherwise, are exempt from the undue burdens that are being placed upon abortion, which for what constitutes an undue burden seems to be withering away more and more as as the theocrats push for an all out ban on abortion. But I also think if we win this case, we kind of have to be on red alert from the religious militants at that point, I think then we can really count on people, you know, coming to

Unknown Speaker  1:04:01  
take me

Unknown Speaker  1:04:03  
to try to kill me at public events or, or whatever else, at least for a time, I just kind of see this as being being a real call to arms for them. And you know, like I said about Trump getting elected and before that people seeing us as it is kind of these Merry Pranksters if maybe a bit annoying, depending on what side you're on at it. Something like this is really going to get people spewing their hatred at us. So I'm kind of concerned about that. If we lose, I don't know if it'll get too terribly much attention. We might see the Christian press hailing it as a you know, and obviously, you know, the ruling could go either way. But the problem is is when if you lose people view it as you know, that you didn't have a legitimate argument to begin with, you know, they, they they act like the law when it benefits them they act like is an exact science, right. And that Do you were foolish to do what you did to begin with? But I think otherwise, you know, if we if we lose, you probably won't hear too terribly much about it. But if we win it, it's it. You know, aside from from the increased security threat, I think it really has the ability to change the entire dialogue, the whole Church State debate, the whole abortion debate, and the whole religious liberty debate and the way we view it. And I think at that point, then you're really going to see people thinking twice about religious liberty claims or religious liberty bills. And we already see it now where a lot of people are trying to pass new religious liberty exemptions, religious liberty laws that call for religious rights for people. And we do see people in office now questioning Well, what happens when the Satanist come and try to try to claim this for their own as well. But I think you'll see that on a whole new scale. If we win this case, I think you're going to be seeing the consideration of the Satanic Temple in play every time they're going to be from there on out. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Though, I have this in mind. I've, uh,

Unknown Speaker  1:06:05  
I've got two more questions for you. If you don't mind, one of them is relevant to this case, but a little bit broader. A lot of the time people and I know you hear this all the time yourself. People will sometimes they're well intentioned, sometimes they're trying to be disparaging, but they'll say, Oh, the Satanic Temple, they're not really Satanists. They're just a bunch of activists and they try to set up this false dichotomy of we can be a religious movement, or we can be an active RBD political activist. But somehow or another, we can't be both at the same time. Pretty sure that's not a standard, they apply for everybody else. But it keeps coming up here. How do you respond when you hear those attitudes? Or do we even need to respond?

Unknown Speaker  1:06:46  
You know, from the very beginning of founding the Satanic Temple, we've been playing the long game here. And I was never too terribly concerned with that, because I anticipated that up front. And at the very beginning, our activities were far more prankster ish. And I realized what that would do to our overall image. But also at the very beginning, we already had things in mind, like the bathroom at Monument was something we thought of right, right at the outset. The anti corporal punishment campaign was something also right at the outset, as well as the reproductive rights exemptions. And my thinking all along was that the more we do these things, and the more people will see that we we really have a getting I, I just felt I knew we would develop that community. We didn't have it yet. But I always felt that I knew that it would, it would happen, I knew that there was a real need for what we were doing, and that this would develop around us. And so in that way, I felt we would be vindicated. And I feel that still but I feel that people see that and they try to ignore that now. And and it's convenient for them to view us as purely political or purely purely activist rather than religious because take something away from them. In the case of other self identified Satanists who have never done anything, to to engage with the real world, this is kind of an excuse for them is this idea that you can only be one or the other. It kind of exonerates them from their general worthlessness. It's particularly funny when you when it comes from the other side, when you have people who are giving money or working with Liberty Counsel, saying that we're purely political and not religious. It's I mean, you just have to point to them and say, Well, look at who you're okay, who you identify with, you know, where, where, where, how is the current evangelical movement to be extricated in any way from politics, politics now? Is there a religious calling in inserting their beliefs into into politics? And that's what made those comments in the opposition motion from the state of Missouri, particularly humorous? I mean, on the one hand, you want to address these things when it's a big question. On the other hand, it doesn't feel like it doesn't feel like it's a very serious question. Like no never does to me. Yeah, I just, yeah, I still kind of have that. That long term goal in mind. I feel like after a while, those those questions kind of kind of fade away when people realize how ludicrous it is to to make these claims about us when we do have such a robust community and obviously people identifying with this in a very sincere way that defines their sense of cultural identity. It becomes more and more disingenuous for those questions to come up. And they're not authentic at all these questions when they come up in the context of of the courtroom or with some of our other opposition who object to us using their what they think is their branding.

Unknown Speaker  1:09:57  
And the the only other thing I was added There's one other thing that I wanted to ask you. And this is this is straying a bit off the topic, I apologize. But I think it was when you were on the Thinking Atheist podcast, and one of the things you mentioned is, you know, being the official spokesperson for the Satanic Temple was a tough gig sometimes, because they got to answer a lot of the same questions over and over again, you got to put up with a lot of the same comments and misconceptions online and on social media over and over again. And it made me wonder what's something nobody ever asks you or something that people very rarely bring up that you wish you had more of the opportunity to talk about? When you talk about this tannic temple? It's a big question. But if anything comes to mind, there are the stars probably want to know.

Unknown Speaker  1:10:34  
You know, it's something I have to think about for a while. When it comes to interviews, for the most part, though, I do. I've been very clear up front, with journalists from from the very beginning, that I never wanted the Satanic Temple to become a kind of personality called even even knowing I was going to be the face and putting out a lot of the material, people are going to be looking at my writings and things like that. I didn't want it to become one man's story, you know. And I was never interested in one of these kinds of asinine, personal biopic type television, things where they take all these issues we're working on and try to turn it into the story of my life, or whatever. Because I feel like that denigrates the entire population we're working with, it kind of gives us idea that, that I'm the author of all of this, when when really, I feel like, you know, there was a pre existing need. And that's why Satanic Temple is so successful, we can never lose track of the fact that there's things that that draw people to this, and that, you know, for this to work, it has to work within certain parameters of what makes this work for people already, that we can't deviate from. And I feel like a lot of other groups haven't had the benefit of somebody approaching it with that kind of detached mentality. And I think a lot of people bought into their own hype. And I feel like that happened to to Levey, where he felt that his own personal peculiarities were the definition of what was properly satanic. He himself was the definition of what was properly satanic. And I see a lot of other groups like that as well. And I think that's a massive mistake. And I think a lot of stories are improperly covered by lazy journalists, because they feel like a slice of life life glimpse into somebody into some activist or leaders life is going to give somehow a deeper richer picture into the the issues when actually it just kind of ignores them. And I've never wanted that to happen. I've never wanted that to be the what happens with the Satanic Temple or any of the chapters, and we kind of have a media standard, a real understanding about that, where we're really hesitant, any of us, I think, to engage in that kind of self aggrandizement. And I'm hoping now at this point that that answered whatever question you asked, even though I forgot what it was.

Unknown Speaker  1:12:53  
Well, to piggyback a little bit off of what you were just saying, on our last episode, we had little star from tst. Seattle, come on to answer a question that we receive quite often from our audience is that they've discovered the Satanic Temple, they've discovered Satanism. What next? How do they find their satanic community, and I've been really encouraged to see all these chapters across the United States around the globe, finding their purpose, finding their mission, and having almost a more decentralized general movement, based on our ideals.

Unknown Speaker  1:13:25  
Yeah, and there's, there's always that there's always the difficulty of having that balance. And it's that balance between giving the chapters their maximum autonomy, but also making sure that no one chapter does anything that will cause a revolt amongst the other chapters, or that is so wildly off message that we feel it's it's hurt the organization in general. And in that way, it's a lot like the the American experiment in general, the federalism versus versus state rights. I think it's interesting to see the conflicts that arise from that. And sometimes, sometimes they're very heated. But I also think that the fact that we have those conflicts in the fact that we kind of have this philosophy, this very democratic philosophy is a sign of our strength rather than a weakness, we're always going to have those difficulties and there's always going to be that tension. But I think that's, that's absolutely necessary to running this in a way that can can uphold our philosophy the best it can. It's, you know, it's doing this I'm also watching it happen. It's very intriguing to me, and I'm, you know, even from a sociological standpoint, you know, it's, it's interesting to see this play out to look at it with a kind of detached mindset and look at it analytically. It's fascinating. I think some academics are kind of starting to catch on to that, too. I've, I've talked to some academics who are who've been following Satanic Temple more closely than you would than I had thought. And I think we're going to start seeing a lot more written about us from an academic perspective, and in the near future. There's a great religion scholar, a professor In Texas who's trying to pitch a book about us to Oxford University Press right now, and I think he do a very good job.

Unknown Speaker  1:15:06  
Oh, interesting. I mean, we will definitely have to cover that whenever it comes out. I think that we're wrapping it up right now. Is there anything anyone else on the on the panel wants to say?

Unknown Speaker  1:15:18  
I just want to say welcome back to Twitter.

Unknown Speaker  1:15:22  
Oh, yeah. Well, that that was a really weird episode. I really wish I could have seen whatever meetings caused them to turn that one around.

Unknown Speaker  1:15:30  
Yeah, you know, they're, they're about like, it's

Unknown Speaker  1:15:32  
not like I filed the appeal. Oh, really?

Unknown Speaker  1:15:36  
Yeah, I'll just walk on there. I adore. I feel it's quite

Unknown Speaker  1:15:39  
possible somebody lost their job, honestly.

Unknown Speaker  1:15:42  
Yeah, I think that might be possible, too. Although Twitter's usually hemorrhaging employees anyway, so has All

Unknown Speaker  1:15:50  
right. Well, Mr. Griese, we really appreciate you taking the time to talk with us. And we're we're really pulling for everything with the case. And with the hearing next week, relevant to that? Is there anything that we didn't get to you that you thought was particularly important before we wrap this up?

Unknown Speaker  1:16:04  
No, I'm sorry. I always feel like I should have a good answer to that lined up. No, that's fine. People ask.

Unknown Speaker  1:16:11  
So we'll just play too much.

Unknown Speaker  1:16:12  
Anytime you want me on for updates, just let me know.

Unknown Speaker  1:16:16  
Yeah, absolutely. So in case anyone wants more information or wants to help out, they can always go to religious reproductive rights.com Or go to shop satan.com to help support the Satanic Temple.

Unknown Speaker  1:16:29  
And currently, you can find me on Twitter, but I'm not sure how long that was.

Unknown Speaker  1:16:35  
Updates pending

Unknown Speaker  1:16:36  
time. links all over the place, in case right and they can actually talk to you.

Unknown Speaker  1:16:44  
Do we want a hail satan to go out

Unknown Speaker  1:16:45  
on? Yeah. Ready?

Unknown Speaker  1:16:49  
321 Hail Satan. All right,

Unknown Speaker  1:16:55  
thank you very much.

Unknown Speaker  1:16:57  
Thank you Good night.

Unknown Speaker  1:17:10  
Now we just want to say once again, thank you very much dilution for appearing on the show and for talking with us about this really important case. If you have any more interest in the Satanic Temple, please visit their website at the satanic temple.com. If you want more information about our show or want to get in contact with us, let us know what you think. Please email us at Black Mass Appeal pod@gmail.com. Or visit our website at Black Mass appeal.com. You can also visit our social media or black mass appeal on most platforms. And finally, if you want to support the show, by contributing to our Patreon, we super appreciate it. It's www.patreon.com/black mass appeal.

Unknown Speaker  1:17:52  
If you want to learn more about satanic San Francisco, come check us out at satanic sf.com. Read our weekly blog Feel the Bern updates every Sunday, or sometimes very early Monday when I'm running late. You can also follow us on facebook@facebook.com forward slash satanic SF to keep up on all of the moves and everything we're up to find out when we have a meeting and when we have upcoming events.

Unknown Speaker  1:18:16  
And if you want to follow me, I'm Tabitha slander on all sorts of things. I'm on Facebook, and I'm on Twitter, and I'm on Instagram. And you can look at my art. And we can talk about stuff. So you should come on over. Check me out.

Unknown Speaker  1:18:29  
welcome her to

Unknown Speaker  1:18:29  
all the social medias. Yeah, you can move over, formed all these accounts so she could share her art and go over and say Hi, I'm Annie and you'll hit that like button. You'll get sneak peeks of usually pictures of cats and me saying I'm nervous about recording episodes. So yeah, let's do it.

Unknown Speaker  1:18:45  
And if you're feeling particularly friendly towards Tabitha or towards the rest of us, you can come down and meet us at our monthly meetings at Wicked grounds coffee shop in San Francisco. At usually it's the second Thursday of every month. This time we're meeting on the 15th which is technically the third Thursday. But

Unknown Speaker  1:19:02  
sometimes when the second Thursday comes a little too fast. We like to give ourselves more time. Give

Unknown Speaker  1:19:06  
us a little bit give us a little bit more room there. But that's overall big, good grounds coffee shop. The official sponsor of black mass appeal and wicked grounds is once again Hail Satan and praise bale staying with us and what are we having next time we're in?

Unknown Speaker  1:19:19  
I want to have the wicked Waldorf. I mean, it just sounds like something I would eat. But what's in it is greens, red grapes, Apple wedges and roasted walnuts which doubled down on how much I would like to eat it.

Unknown Speaker  1:19:34  
So let's get wicked with Waldorf and so even if you don't come to our regular satanic San Francisco meetings, stop on by give them your support, eat their food.

Unknown Speaker  1:19:43  
Oh, check out their Patreon too. While we're at it. That's an enterprise

Unknown Speaker  1:19:47  
that's patreon slash wicked rounds. I'm assuming the link will be posted in the show notes. So I don't sound like good jacket.

Unknown Speaker  1:19:57  
Alright, well we already said Hail Satan with loose So, good night and good luck.

Unknown Speaker  1:20:03  
I'll just tap dance out to see the music