Podcasts/The Satanists Nextdoor Ep46 Internal Strife and the Path Forward for TST

Backstory

In May 2024, another mass departure started from TST. This started after a series of emails from Doug Misicko, aka Lucien Greaves, were published, in which a Minister was fired from TST.

The spat centred around Doug's authoritarian management style and aggressive responses to criticism — which worsened as internal discontent spread and he doubled down.

In this context, Doug appeared as a guest on the podcast series "The Satanists Next Door", to defend his actions. This was received poorly by the membership.

A number of TST Chapters ultimately disaffiliated during this schism, so far including: -TST Minnesota -TST Florida -TST Colorado ^(these three are part of the “Coalition of Satanic Congregations”) -TST Australia -TST Alabama -TST North Carolina

Show Notes (as published)

In this episode, Tommy and Lilin shift their focus from the planned discussion on abortion laws in Texas to address the recent internal conflicts within The Satanic Temple (TST). Joined by Lucien Greaves, they delve into the controversy surrounding TST leadership and ministerial disputes that have erupted over the past week.

The conversation begins with Lilin recounting her experience of discovering and confronting a group within TST that was sharing derogatory memes and discussing potentially harmful actions against the organization. As the situation escalated, it became clear that this was more than just idle chatter, leading to serious concerns about the intentions of some members.

Lucien provides his perspective on the matter, explaining the gravity of the situation and the steps taken to address it. He highlights the importance of maintaining professionalism and the challenges of managing an organization where internal strife can easily undermine the collective mission. The discussion also touches on the broader implications of these internal issues, especially in the context of the upcoming election year and the ongoing fight for religious and reproductive rights.

Throughout the episode, the hosts emphasize the need for transparency, accountability, and unity within TST. They call on members to engage constructively, uphold the organization's values, and support each other in the face of external and internal challenges. This episode serves as a reminder of the importance of solidarity and the collective effort required to advance TST's mission.

Join Tommy, Lilin, and Lucien as they navigate this complex and contentious topic, urging listeners to stay informed, get involved by contacting info@thesatanictemple.com, and contribute to a stronger, healthier, more cohesive TST community. https://www.satanistsnextdoor.com/ep46-internal-strife-and-the-path-forward-for-tst/

Transcript

[00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.760] Welcome dear listeners to Satanist Next Door, we're your hosts, Lilin Lavin, and Tommy Levine, [00:00:05.760 --> 00:00:09.920] whether you're an open-minded curious onlooker or fellow Satanist seeking camaraderie, [00:00:09.920 --> 00:00:15.900] our goal is to share our personal experiences and delve into the intricate tapestry of Satanism in our daily lives, [00:00:15.900 --> 00:00:21.160] occasionally inviting other guests to share their unique perspectives leaving no pentagram, unturned. [00:00:21.160 --> 00:00:26.240] We'll explore how our beliefs shape our views on society, dive into struggles and triumphs we've encountered, [00:00:26.240 --> 00:00:28.760] and reveal the humanity that unites us all. [00:00:28.760 --> 00:00:32.760] So grab your favorite shallots and join us on this captivating journey. [00:00:32.760 --> 00:00:37.320] Satanist Next Door is ready to peel back the curtain and offer you a glimpse into our world, [00:00:37.320 --> 00:00:39.760] one captivating episode at a time. [00:00:39.760 --> 00:01:03.320] Hello and welcome to another episode of Satanist Next Door. [00:01:03.320 --> 00:01:10.160] So today we were originally going to talk about abortion, the abortion laws in Texas, [00:01:10.160 --> 00:01:15.160] you know, given that our daughter just gave birth to our first grandson and, you know, [00:01:15.160 --> 00:01:19.400] the conflicting emotions that go around that with all of these restrictive laws, [00:01:19.400 --> 00:01:26.320] but giving, you know, all the shit that went down this week with inside of, you know, [00:01:26.320 --> 00:01:35.120] TST leadership, some of the ministerial stuff, I thought we should cover that and actually get the story out there, you know, [00:01:35.120 --> 00:01:38.680] why, you know, the whole nine yards. [00:01:38.680 --> 00:01:43.560] And with us to help us do this, we have Lucian. Hey, Lucian. [00:01:43.560 --> 00:01:51.600] Hey, so I figure we should probably just start from the beginning, start from the beginning. [00:01:51.600 --> 00:01:57.160] I wasn't even sure if we'd have this conversation, just knowing that it would be a tense thing to do, [00:01:57.160 --> 00:02:01.720] and there was already a lot of opinions, but I think kind of in the spirit of what I wrote, [00:02:01.720 --> 00:02:06.400] I thought it was important to follow it up for other people to understand that weren't necessarily [00:02:06.400 --> 00:02:12.400] in a position to read what I'd shared or to understand the full picture of what was happening. [00:02:12.400 --> 00:02:17.760] So my daughter recently had a baby and we were all celebrating together. [00:02:17.760 --> 00:02:22.280] I was helping them with, with all that comes with it, you know, the sleeplessness and just having someone [00:02:22.280 --> 00:02:24.440] to kind of talk you through all of that. [00:02:24.440 --> 00:02:32.400] And I started seeing some messages in a conversation about some memes or something that had just come across. [00:02:32.400 --> 00:02:36.800] And I was only half paying attention, kind of figuring it was just the normal still, you know, [00:02:36.800 --> 00:02:44.320] still a stuff that people shared. So it wasn't until I started seeing other people also having this conversation. [00:02:44.320 --> 00:02:49.680] And there was a group where many people had gotten together during other really difficult situations [00:02:49.680 --> 00:02:53.360] that would pop up. Now and again, you didn't get a lot of them, but there would be serious things [00:02:53.360 --> 00:02:58.720] that people would join together really quickly to find ways to deal with it and make sure that it really [00:02:58.720 --> 00:03:02.880] didn't affect congregations and people in general and provide support. [00:03:02.880 --> 00:03:06.800] So when I saw this group become active, I assumed that was what was happening. [00:03:06.800 --> 00:03:10.880] So I went in and they had shared a link to a signal chat. [00:03:10.880 --> 00:03:15.600] So I went in just to kind of see what the conversation was and what the plan was. [00:03:15.600 --> 00:03:21.120] And they were talking about the memes, but I quickly realized that they were in favor [00:03:21.120 --> 00:03:27.440] of what was shared and granted the memes were, in my opinion, not very tasteful. [00:03:27.440 --> 00:03:32.080] They were, you know, something that was divisive when people had already expressed that there was [00:03:32.080 --> 00:03:38.160] division and there was anger towards executive ministry. There was a lot of people feeling [00:03:38.160 --> 00:03:41.920] in certain ways. And instead of talking about it constructively, a group of people decided [00:03:41.920 --> 00:03:48.080] to share some really, yeah, it just tasteful and just rude. Honestly, it was rude. [00:03:48.080 --> 00:03:52.480] But that wasn't, that's in and of itself is not an issue, right? People had the right [00:03:52.480 --> 00:03:55.760] to blow off steam, but it's when they started talking about all these things and it became [00:03:55.760 --> 00:04:01.280] progressively negative. And then I started seeing conversations about moving content, [00:04:01.280 --> 00:04:06.320] not that they had done it, not that, you know, it was something that they were thinking about, [00:04:06.320 --> 00:04:12.480] they had talked about, and then it went into emails, it went into files. Again, not saying that they [00:04:12.480 --> 00:04:16.400] did it, but they were planning it. They were talking about how you would do it, what you would move, [00:04:16.400 --> 00:04:21.680] what that would look like. And I started to really panic because I knew several of these people, [00:04:21.680 --> 00:04:26.400] one of the ones in my own congregation and some of that I've known for quite a while. And I felt [00:04:26.400 --> 00:04:31.840] really horrible because I realized I was going to have to make a decision knowing some of these [00:04:31.840 --> 00:04:36.880] folks were in committees that would take these kind of complaints. I didn't know exactly what [00:04:36.880 --> 00:04:41.200] to do. I hadn't really had a lot of serious discussions with executive ministry when it came [00:04:41.200 --> 00:04:46.560] to these situations. So do I send it to them? What does that look like? What's going to happen? [00:04:46.560 --> 00:04:51.280] And what will this look like for these people that I consider my friends? Because this was not [00:04:51.280 --> 00:04:56.080] lighthearted stuff. It was definitely things I kind of panicked about. And I wasn't sure, [00:04:56.080 --> 00:04:58.800] excuse me, where to go with it. So, [00:04:59.440 --> 00:05:02.240] well, I would say you also didn't know what it would mean for you, too. [00:05:02.240 --> 00:05:07.440] Well, I had an idea because I'd seen some stuff in the past where people had talked about things, [00:05:07.440 --> 00:05:12.320] and I knew that there were some individuals that would get very negative. But I didn't know how [00:05:12.320 --> 00:05:18.880] much. I didn't know the ramifications. And I definitely had some concerns. But I figured, well, [00:05:18.880 --> 00:05:24.640] yeah, maybe I won't be someone people like very much. But honestly, if they see what happened, [00:05:24.640 --> 00:05:30.560] then surely that would make sense to them. And they would want to maybe think about a little bit, [00:05:30.560 --> 00:05:34.400] look at it a little bit, and then they would realize, yeah, that there was a gravity to this [00:05:34.400 --> 00:05:41.360] situation that merited doing something about it. So I decided to write out what I saw and try to [00:05:41.360 --> 00:05:45.920] also include. I had seen a lot of comments in the community. I tried to have a few conversations [00:05:45.920 --> 00:05:50.160] with people in my region. I had known things that I couldn't share with people, obviously, [00:05:50.160 --> 00:05:54.080] because I had a responsibility to send that somewhere else for other people to deal with it. [00:05:54.080 --> 00:05:58.000] That I was really aggravated because a lot of people made a lot of light-hearted comments. [00:05:58.000 --> 00:06:04.560] And I didn't agree. I had a lot more context than they did. So I couldn't say why I was so angry, [00:06:04.560 --> 00:06:10.400] but I definitely expressed, why would you guys be doing this? We have so many things happening [00:06:10.400 --> 00:06:14.880] this year. This is a very heavy election year. A lot of people are already stressed and scared. [00:06:14.880 --> 00:06:20.320] There's a lot of reproductive rights issues. There's LGBTQIA issues. There's a lot of really weird [00:06:20.320 --> 00:06:23.920] stuff happening in the Supreme Court. Our religion has literally been called into question. [00:06:23.920 --> 00:06:29.200] Materials being taken from school is like, why are you wasting your time with this stupid crap? [00:06:29.200 --> 00:06:33.680] There's so much to do. Why don't we just work on doing that? And people actually got irritated [00:06:33.680 --> 00:06:40.400] with me and, you know, fine, but there was so much going on and I didn't understand. So I wrote this [00:06:40.400 --> 00:06:44.800] all out. I took in some of the things the community had mentioned. A lot of people complained about, [00:06:44.800 --> 00:06:48.880] you know, what about the tenants and, you know, EMs obligated to follow these tenants just like [00:06:48.880 --> 00:06:54.240] everyone else. And what about the invocation? You know, what about the invocation would align with [00:06:54.240 --> 00:07:00.320] the things? And as this hall unfolded, the letters that had been shared between the individual that [00:07:00.320 --> 00:07:08.240] made the memes and Lucian. And rightfully, it was very insulting and negative. So Lucian, [00:07:08.240 --> 00:07:11.680] I'm not going to put words in your mouth. I'll let you take care of that later. It seemed [00:07:11.680 --> 00:07:17.120] had confronted the situation in as eloquent a manner as possible considering just the egregious [00:07:17.120 --> 00:07:22.400] nature of it. And I don't even feel it was bad. It was not done in bad taste. I thought it was, [00:07:22.400 --> 00:07:28.400] you know, pretty to the point. And then they shared, of course, the response, right? So people [00:07:28.400 --> 00:07:32.160] are having this whole conversation, but well, they should be held to a higher standard. And, [00:07:32.160 --> 00:07:36.560] you know, people have a right to feelings. And all these things should be taken into the context of [00:07:36.560 --> 00:07:40.400] the tenants and the, you know, spirit of which we put all these things out. And I'm like, well, [00:07:40.400 --> 00:07:45.360] what about their feelings? You do realize they're people, right? So that kind of started to get [00:07:45.360 --> 00:07:49.120] heated. And I said, you know, it doesn't even matter. I'm not going to get into these discussions. [00:07:49.120 --> 00:07:54.000] Nothing healthy is coming from it. I wrote out what I saw going on. I tried to present it [00:07:54.000 --> 00:07:59.520] to the community in a way that it I felt would make sense. I'd already shared what I had seen. [00:07:59.520 --> 00:08:06.080] And we share you shared what you saw with the M with the M and I and I wanted to know, you know, [00:08:06.080 --> 00:08:09.920] I know you're getting a lot of flack for this. People are acting like you guys are on a paranoid [00:08:09.920 --> 00:08:14.560] witch hunt. I don't feel comfortable with that. I need people to understand you guys didn't just [00:08:14.560 --> 00:08:19.520] suddenly get a wild hair and say, you know, let's just go on a spree and start just going after [00:08:19.520 --> 00:08:24.880] people for the hell of it. So so I wrote this out in the hopes that and in the spirit that it [00:08:24.880 --> 00:08:29.280] would bring transparency. All I ever see people say is there's no communication. There's no [00:08:29.280 --> 00:08:35.200] transparency. And I felt the oneness was on me because I'm the reason that these individuals [00:08:35.200 --> 00:08:41.040] were brought to Am's attention. And I didn't give any guidance on what should happen. I just said, [00:08:41.040 --> 00:08:46.000] here's what I saw presented everything as I saw it. I didn't do it in my own words. [00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:50.720] I literally just gave them what happened. And the decisions that came after that were based [00:08:50.720 --> 00:08:55.760] on that information. But what I really needed was for the community to understand this wasn't [00:08:55.760 --> 00:09:02.160] some wild, you know, the wall witch hunt. And so I felt that this would help to clear that up. [00:09:02.160 --> 00:09:07.280] I truly thought that people would use all this, you know, reason and logic that we talk about [00:09:07.280 --> 00:09:13.840] so lawfully and don't actually seem to apply to ourselves, which I found really upsetting. So, [00:09:13.840 --> 00:09:19.200] you know, that's pretty much where I found myself. And then, um, yeah, I'll, I'll kind of give it [00:09:19.200 --> 00:09:23.680] to Lucian to talk about his perspective. But that's what happened. And I really feel like, [00:09:23.680 --> 00:09:27.120] you know, granted people have ever had to feel the way they're going to feel. And I don't be [00:09:27.120 --> 00:09:31.760] grudge people if they're angry with me. I do hope that they maybe take some time to look at what I [00:09:31.760 --> 00:09:37.760] actually, um, shared and why I felt compelled to do what I did. Well, and I, I would jump in with [00:09:37.760 --> 00:09:45.120] one thing really quick. Um, just for context, you shared this only within the TST community. So, [00:09:45.120 --> 00:09:49.840] it's not like not just the TST community. It was strictly in the minister slack, um, which is only [00:09:49.840 --> 00:09:55.440] two ministry and a congregation heads are part of that. And it was limited. So only people that [00:09:55.440 --> 00:10:01.120] could view it were people that were in TST and had TST org access. And it wasn't even made [00:10:01.120 --> 00:10:06.400] downloadable. So the hope was that it, you know, I was sharing it with people that should not should. [00:10:06.400 --> 00:10:12.640] I should not say that people that I felt would be able to look at it and hopefully kind of [00:10:12.640 --> 00:10:18.240] parse it and see the spirit that, like I said, the spirit that I was shared and reason it and come [00:10:18.240 --> 00:10:22.960] to why I just wanted them to come to a conclusion either way. Right. So I wasn't blasted all over [00:10:22.960 --> 00:10:27.840] Twitter and social media and all that sort of shit. Cool. I just wanted to clarify that part. [00:10:27.840 --> 00:10:32.560] Thank you. So yeah, I guess, Lucian, I'll hand it to you because I can't speak for you, but I'll [00:10:32.560 --> 00:10:37.840] let you speak for yourself. Well, yeah, let me talk about what happens in the most approximate [00:10:37.840 --> 00:10:43.920] events. And then I'll feel like further background context to it. But most approximately, I got [00:10:43.920 --> 00:10:50.880] these screenshots of a group of ministers acting really childish on Facebook, talking about how [00:10:50.880 --> 00:10:58.400] they've outgrown TSD and generally talking about what a piece of shit I am and how I really don't [00:10:58.400 --> 00:11:06.240] do anything but post on Patreon. And their major beef was that we weren't having a convention this [00:11:06.240 --> 00:11:11.200] year. We weren't having Satan Khan that we had the audacity to cancel it. And apparently, [00:11:11.200 --> 00:11:20.080] the function of EM is only to finance the parties that we have annually. And I thought that was [00:11:20.080 --> 00:11:26.800] extremely ignorant given the intensity of things that are happening in this election year. All the [00:11:26.800 --> 00:11:32.960] things we've been dealing with and how little interaction I've seen with the ministry in general [00:11:32.960 --> 00:11:38.080] when it comes to some of these primary issues. And I really have never asked people to be engaged [00:11:38.080 --> 00:11:43.440] with reproductive rights after school, state and club or any of these things if they don't have [00:11:43.440 --> 00:11:50.160] an interest in them. But to openly be disrespecting me and EM for working on these issues, [00:11:50.160 --> 00:11:58.000] especially when you're talking about politicians working to literally illegalize our practice [00:11:58.000 --> 00:12:05.040] and to act like this is something superfluous that we're doing seemed to me is absolutely insane. [00:12:05.040 --> 00:12:11.680] And so I emailed the primary minister who had been posting these memes. And I laid out my [00:12:11.680 --> 00:12:16.800] grievances. I said, these are the things I'm working on. This is the duress we're under. [00:12:16.800 --> 00:12:23.520] This is the situation we're in with this. This is the dire state of needs we have. And we're working [00:12:23.520 --> 00:12:30.800] with people who identify as ministers professionally acting this unprofessional in saying these types [00:12:30.800 --> 00:12:36.800] of things publicly. And furthermore, being that they don't pay dues, they don't pay membership [00:12:36.800 --> 00:12:42.480] fees. There's no startup costs. And they're using this kind of network we had put together [00:12:42.480 --> 00:12:48.640] and in using it as the resource for the things they do. The fact that they appear to be attacking [00:12:48.640 --> 00:12:55.040] my livelihood by congratulating each other for not subscribing to my content and not reading it [00:12:55.040 --> 00:13:03.040] either seemed insane to work with that kind of people like people who would actually discourage [00:13:03.040 --> 00:13:11.200] one another from possibly contributing to my income that makes it possible for me to [00:13:11.200 --> 00:13:18.480] work over full time hours for this organization. They enjoy the benefits of. So I sent out letters [00:13:18.480 --> 00:13:24.240] in this minister kind of outlining this. And I get a shitty reply back in the point of this [00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:30.400] message that this reply to me was at the real problem here. And I'm paraphrasing. I don't remember [00:13:30.400 --> 00:13:37.680] the verbatim, but the real problem was my ignorant removal from the real day to day boots on the [00:13:37.680 --> 00:13:46.080] ground of TST. So my response to that was, well, then get gone. You know, I can't work with this. [00:13:46.080 --> 00:13:53.280] You got to go. And so he was fired. And I messaged people and said, remove him. That's it. He's up. [00:13:53.280 --> 00:13:59.600] And I knew that would cause enough work because I have never done that kind of thing before. And [00:13:59.600 --> 00:14:05.280] you know, you see that now in the reactions, all of a sudden they're acting like I'm a dictator, [00:14:05.280 --> 00:14:10.240] but you know, it is a weird kind of dictator in which you didn't even know that I was a [00:14:10.240 --> 00:14:16.640] character who actually had the power to remove you from your professional position and representing [00:14:16.640 --> 00:14:22.640] us. But when you have somebody who's going to disparage the management of the organization and [00:14:22.640 --> 00:14:27.680] the organization itself and talk about having left the organization, I felt it was or having [00:14:27.680 --> 00:14:32.560] outgrown the organization. I feel it's completely legitimate to suggest maybe you shouldn't leave [00:14:32.560 --> 00:14:39.280]