Podcasts/CwD-LucienGreaves-Pt2

Aug 7, 2013 at 2:03 pm
Conversations With Dwyer: Lucien Greaves Part II: Plot Twist
Leader of the Satanic Temple, Lucien Greaves performed a pink mass on the grave of the mother of Fred Phelps, the founding member of the Wesboro Baptist Church, turning her gay in the afterlife. However, SHane Bugbee recently revealed in an interview for Vice Magazine that Lucien is really the creation of Doug Mesner. Doug and Shane join Dwyer in a captivating conversation about the controversy surrounding the 'Pink Mass', the criticism from the Church of Satan, conspiracy theories and how Doug plans on dealing with his pending legal issues due to the Pink Mass.
https://shows.acast.com/mattdwyer_x/episodes/lucien-greaves-part-ii-plot-twist

Transcript

00:00:44 [Intro]

00:01:24 Matt Dwyer: Hello and welcome to Conversations with Matt Dwyer, I'm Matt Dwyer. Excuse me, just data corn chip and a little bit of it in my throat if you like that music plan there that's a band called Les blanks feel free to check them out on the LesBlanks.com Don't listen to my show before and this is what the title there implies it's a conversation with me check it out enjoy it really cool. Just made talking to somebody super duper interesting or in today's case I'm talking to two people and if you haven't listened to my show before you're gonna want to go back to last week's episode I believe number 65, Episode 65 I believe that is, and listen to me talk with Lucien Graves (sic) because... Grieves because this is part two which I didn't know there was going to be a part two when I did this first interview but Lucien graves performed a pink pass over the Westboro Baptist Church founding members mother's grave turning her gay in the afterlife. It was very controversial. It was in a lot of write ups and Huffington Post and vice. And then Shane Bugbee, who has been a guest on my show a couple times wrote an article or an interview with Lucien graves revealing that it's really a guy named Doug Messner. And and so that sort of changed, altered the story and the happenings and two pretty intense so I talked to the three of them about the article, the comments that people were talking about, Derek wrote under the vice article. It's a really super great follow up to last week's week's episode, so I had to do much else talking about it. I think I explained it well, I hope don't you write me let me know if I explained that well, here's Doug Mesner & Shane Bugbee.

00:03:42 Matt Dwyer: So pretty much Shane, you broke the Lucien Greaves story, which is really Doug Messner. Now, had you guys been collaborating on this sort of idea for a while? Where were you? Were, were you a part of it from the beginning, Shane?

00:03:57 Shane Bugbee: No, I'm not really a part of it. I'm just a friend of Doug. We've been lifelong, would not live long, but it feels like a life. We've been friends for a long time. So like in friend friendly conversation, I hear about Doug's ideas, and we laugh and we talk about what uh, you know what he had for dinner even so it's it's like just a friend friendly conversations. I've spoke to Doug about his ideas for this. But no, I have nothing. Nothing to do with the... even The Satanic Temple. Right. I have nothing to do with that. No,

00:04:29 Matt Dwyer: I meant the pink mass, but...

00:04:32 Shane Bugbee: help. I mean, like I said, as friends I've spoke with Doug and maybe, you know, maybe said something and I it can be considered as I've consulted, but not you know, just as friends friendly conversation, as we have Matt, you know.

00:04:47 Matt Dwyer: Sure.

00:04:48 Shane Bugbee: You tell me about those hemorrhoid problems you're having I was talking to just take a razor to that fucking purple thing. And you know, we're, I wouldn't say I'm a doctor, but I helped you get through that, though that hemorrhoids and anal fissures you were having.

00:05:02 Matt Dwyer: Yeah, I appreciate that. And Doug now, did you create the Satanic Temple just for this specific excerpt? The the pink mass thing? Or was it something that had been going on for a while?

00:05:14 Lucien Greaves: Actually, I didn't even create. It was an idea that came up with a friend and one of his colleagues, he's a friend of mine now, but I didn't know him at the time. And they had developed this idea of asserting the rights of statements as a way to build a new spin on the Church State debate. So originally, it was just kind of this film idea. And I was open to the consultants because a long background on witch hunts, sections of Satanism and that kind of thing. And the original thing we first did was a rally in Florida to support Senate Bill 98 That was being put forward by Governor Rick Scott over there, which allowed for inspirational message, prayer at school assemblies. So rather than revolting against secular ground, decided we would throw a satanic rally in support of it.

00:06:18 Matt Dwyer: It's interesting, I got into an online argument with a guy I didn't know about that very point in, in the who read the article. And he was he was very upset. It kind of he played on like, it's, he was very upset that he was like, well, he claims that Satan doesn't exist, but he's really excited that kids are going to pray to Satan. And it's amazing just how much people miss the humor of, of this situation. Would you agree with that?

00:06:51 Lucien Greaves: Yeah, that it's for both the humor and the people on this, you're forcing them to reevaluate and hopefully see, I mean, once it becomes a strictly humorous transmogrified into something else completely. And I'm fine with that. I think right now you have these people who are self identified statements a lot of them and there were people that were putting this forward because I think they're feeling like we're gonna fish on there for ages going to change this into something else. We are, you know, people start looking at this differently and ultimately have to reevaluate their preconceived notions. Again, I think we're successful actually, I'm not interested in cultivating an image for disenfranchise age Dungeons and Dragons kids who want to scare their grandmothers and walk around wearing capes.

00:07:42 Shane Bugbee: Which is exactly what that the Church of Satan has become. If you see no the vise calm you see those comments underneath there? And it just it it looks like a reads like a cult to me. I was like, Man, these people are insane. And I evolved you know, for me, I don't want to say like... I don't, I've never considered myself a Satanist. Okay, I've considered myself me. You know, I don't I don't really subscribe to any of that, anything. Like I, I appreciate LaVey's philosophy and he made me a priest in the church of Satan. And I love that as a as a metal head. That was a great like a trophy. But I've never I've never considered myself a Satanist among Satanist. If you're a Christian and bothering me, I would tell you, I'm a Satanist. But I really don't. I only look at it as that I'm looking at the for me saying it is a political and artistic movement. And I see myself as an atheist in the sense that I'm a skeptic. And I'm an agnostic in the sense that I appreciate the question mark of life. I placed my faith in science, a mine, the science minded to answer you know, the greatest questions in life like Bigfoot shit like that, you know? C'mon!

00:09:01 Lucien Greaves: Well, the criticism I had was that, you know, in the comments, they didn't address any of the criticisms, my criticisms was that they don't mobilize they have no agenda, no goals, no, no political leverage, you know, they don't. They don't rally for exemptions and privileges, sound religion, they don't really enter the debate at all, you know.

00:09:32 Shane Bugbee: Right!

00:09:33 Lucien Greaves: The replies were kind of perfect. Because they talked about well, we're very active in somebody on there was commenting saying that the active members are very active. They're professionals from all walks of life and that kind of thing. But some people don't even understand what it means to have an active organization acting as an organization, or they just have this cognitive dissonance where they explain it all away and give the organization an excuse being minimalist and doing nothing.

00:10:04 Shane Bugbee: And that's that those talking points have existed for 20, the 20 years, I've paid attention that that's this, that they say the same fucking things, anytime someone speaks out against the Church of Satan or even breaks off from them and agrees with them as Doug, as the church, the temple of Satan does, you know, right Doug, I mean, you guys are cool with LaVey.

00:10:28 Lucien Greaves: Sure. So in that way, we're completely separate. But it's no surprise to anybody else, even existing using this kind of terminology. Because their entire goal is to try to hold monopoly over that you can't trade and learn. It's, it's up for grabs, and it's different varieties of interpretations or whatever else. And we're doing something completely different from something, even a hybrid hope to do. But these are several markets to try to preserve and no matter what, no matter what done in that name. If it's some other groups, some other organization, they're going to be against it.

00:11:17 Matt Dwyer: Now, does the does the Church of Satan even exist? Because there seems to be people saying it does. And it doesn't. And it's been kind of defunct since LaVey... I mean, didn't Anton LeVey's son tried to rally something together?

00:11:30 Unknown: No. So, Anton LaVey's grandson, Stan, but the CoS exists. As much as it's, it's more of like the Ayn Rand, the group that protects her writings and her work, you know, like, what does that called when like Nina Simone's daughter's watching after her estate?

00:11:52 Matt Dwyer: I don't fucking know.

00:11:55 Lucien Greaves: Preserving the estate..

00:11:56 Shane Bugbee: Yeah, basically what they're doing is preserving the estate of LaVey that's that's all they are, is a placeholder for that. But...

00:12:04 Lucien Greaves: Again, it's a website where if one of them has produced something, some kind of product, they they advertise it, they put up a news site or whatever, but these aren't organized actions, you know, these aren't these and they don't even seem to realize there's a distinction, you know, somebody produces a work of art or whatever else, and they can put it on the website. And that might be predicted because it has been already a market. But that's all it is. It's it works. A website and a membership card.

00:12:35 Matt Dwyer: A $200 membership card, isn't it to be, to be, to be. See to be a Christian, all you have to do...

00:12:41 Lucien Greaves: Which is ironic too and some of the criticisms because they were talking about asking money from your friends. And I guess they're trying to insult the notion that the adopt a highway campaign crowdsource you know, that's how we're going to do our coins, you know, you're going to know what your money is going into the money pool is going to be going towards directed goals. Some of them you might want to be involved in, some of them you might not want to be involved in, but you're going to know, know where it's going. It's not just support some... somebody's lifestyle, who's otherwise not working.

00:13:15 Matt Dwyer: Yeah, it's interesting that it's real interesting to me, some of the things they they took issues with in, in the, in the comments section, they also accused... saying that, I'm guessing it was targeted at you, Shane, that you didn't do your research, I was just like, You mean your research on the guy you've known for 20 years. It's like having to find kind of lived that research.

00:13:40 Lucien Greaves: Like I said, they're giving the wrong point. You know, I was talking about mobilizing as the politically relevant force, and they did nothing to address that. One of one of the commenters even said something like, "well, there is no uniform goal". There's no excuses, it's a justification for not doing anything, but it's really acknowledging that you're not doing those things. You're not asking the uniform validation, which is exactly what we are doing, what we want to do, and what we'll continue to do. So there's no point in saying we've gotten it wrong and then carrying on and saying, in fact, giving excuses for why we're right.

00:14:22 Matt Dwyer: Right. Now, Shane is a guy who knew Anton LeVey; do you think he would be annoyed by these these actions of people who were supposedly of the Church of Satan?

00:14:36 Shane Bugbee: Hmmm... As long as his as his bills were covered. It came down to that and I mean, that's just the deal. You know, it was it's much like Doug was saying, this is a market that they're trying to keep a stronghold on. And that's what it was till evey was, you know, there's not much More twist philosophy than what was what's in mind is right, actually, I mean, that's, you know, my associate with Levey is basically threatening him in a letter telling them listen, dude, I'm going to pull, I'm going to republish my is right. And I'm going to let people know that you basically plagiarize this for the church, you know, the Satanic Bible, and, you know, I don't know, there's, there's not much more to what he's done than that. And then the Satanic Bible, it's a great safe a self help book, you know. So, to that end, he was just happy that people were sending memberships. And it was like, you know, paying respects to some who did a great work a great piece of work. So you know, I mean, as long as they were paying their dues and buying T shirts, he'd be happy. And then his loyalty was to that, of course, the same as a Peter Gilmore's loyalty to defend this is to, to those members, membership fees coming in those T shirts being sold. But, but that's what the thrill is, of working with Doug in the Satanic Temple, or, you know, being friends with Doug and hearing about is, is that they are active in for someone like me, who was run out of a fucking town based on my public appreciation for the bay. I really don't really, I really, I really don't have a lot of happy thoughts when it comes to the CEOs because they left they left people like me out there to hang out, hang out and dry, you know, it'd be to be fucking run out of time without any protection. And it's nice to hear that Doug, and this group aspire to help out some folks that might be misunderstood. Like that. So, you know...

00:16:37 Lucien Greaves: Yeah, there was another comical comment too, when I, when I complained that there was no discernible noise regarding even high profile cases like the West Memphis Three. And somebody commented, well, Gilmore wrote about that, in the satanic scriptures. And we'll look at the death view that's still still surely completely incompetent to complete incomprehension about what it leads to do, to engage in an organized effort or advocacy of any on any level whatsoever. And the level of organizational incompetence is staggering to me. And there's all this kind of rhetoric about judging people for their actions in the real world. But not judging an organization, I guess, you know, you don't, you don't, you don't turn that around and look at the collective efforts and judge look at what the organization is in the real world, and what effect that has on their culture. And I feel like, there's been a lot of kind of indoctrination with that rhetoric, because people will buy into that and accept that and people who pay $200, just so they can carry that weight, which nobody has a monopoly on. And kind of be humorous ironing. And all this is after I met with Shane, a long time ago, and we also looked into other bizarre fringe cults that were supposed to be monitors were blaming for crime that never existed. And to do this kind of research, I kind of walked away from that, but took on the false memory controversy, and the conspiracy theory from culture that talks about satanic ritual abuse and that kind of thing. And when I started attacking those people, their immediate knee jerk responses that I am a Satanist trying to defend some kind of secret cabal of Satanists and stuff like that. So for, you know, the structure, like five years, I'm getting these, these clients that I'm a Satanist. Now, you know, I'm an atheist. And this is just kind of a way to lose the argument into familiar territory for them. Now I do this project to embrace the label. Let me get these people coming out of the woodworks and he's not the oldest for this label. And she's kind of funny that there's an argument. There's going to be this kind of argument as to whether it's an appropriate label for me or not, and people are going to have different points of view on that. And it changes completely once I embrace the label. I'm gonna say, You know what?

00:19:28 Matt Dwyer: It seems...

00:19:29 Shane Bugbee: To go back to that LaVey.... You asked about LaVey what he would think of things or what it you know, there. As far as that group goes, they do a lot of telling people what's right and wrong. And I think I know that within that base philosophy that was just that's just not it doesn't jive with the whole satanic philosophy. How they're trying to direct people. There was direct directionless movement almost I mean, you know, it's, does that make sense, Matt?

00:19:56 Matt Dwyer: Yeah, it does it also. I mean, it's hard not to... The... they almost sound and I'm sure they're gonna love this is hypocritical as a lot of Christians, because it sounds like they're ready to shoot their mouth off and judge others, but they don't do fucking anything. Does that make sense?

00:20:14 Shane Bugbee: Yeah. And in the old days of the CoS, I can imagine that if this would have happened in the old days, they would, LaVey would just shrug his shoulders and pretty much ignore it. Like, they don't you know, they don't have what I have. I'm LaVey, he wouldn't, he didn't have all this insecurity. And none of the old members did either. It's just sort of, they would just sort of shrug their shoulders and laugh or ignore it, they wouldn't make such a big deal out of it and tell people what's right and wrong.

00:20:38 Lucien Greaves: Because there's an individual, he did have a product, he had something he could stand by, but now you have a bunch of people who are who are taking along off taking on his name, and they have no more right to do that. And anybody else lesser right, most of them then then you because you were invited... you, Shane, because you were invited in by Anton. So, you know, they're preserving something that isn't theirs to begin with. So they want to have a stranglehold on on just the marketing aspects.

00:21:10 Matt Dwyer: They've also, some of those comments on the under the article were claimed that you weren't made a High Priest.

00:21:21 Shane Bugbee: Well, the term High Priest versus priest and Reverend that's, you know, I don't I, you know, I should have checked over that table and see if I typed it or Vice edited it and put high priest in there. That's true. I was not made a High Priest what they said that was true. I was made a Priest/Reverend, that's what they that's the title. It's so...

00:21:43 Lucien Greaves: What's the fucking difference? If you look at it, they have a very elaborate hierarchy of different names. But those don't mean anything unless there are some concurrent duties or obligations or something that goes along with that. They're meaningless titles, so just these labels. Well, you've reached the next level.

00:22:11 Shane Bugbee: That's what I asked. That's what I asked Levey when he gave me the tie tack, I was like, So does this mean, I get like discounts and, you know, steak shops and stuff like that. And he said, you'll see it'll behoove you. And once in a while, I got picked up from the airport from the Satanist that give me a ride. So I got some rides out of it. It was also meant to be like, when you're a priest, or Reverend, the Church of Satan, you are able now to represent the Church of Satan publicly in the media, because you understand the philosophy. And that's, that was the duty of the reverence and priest is basically to be able to represent it. And when Levey passed away, the duties of a reverend or a priest in the church of Satan became to get members and was a to to recruit but but without being public about recruiting like they're there. We don't recruit people, they come to us. They say that publicly. But basically, that's what reverends do. And that's how you move up to be a magistrate, you get so many people to join. And this is the behind the scenes stuff, you know, that that they don't they don't talk about publicly, but that's the deal. That's the to answer that if there was a question.

00:23:23 Matt Dwyer: it sounds so it sounds like I mean, it sounds like they've become kind of a bit of a scam. And it sounds like the Temple of Satan is trying to be more of an activist oriented.

00:23:35 Shane Bugbee: The Satanic Temple.

00:23:37 Matt Dwyer: Oh, what did I say? The Temple of Satan, oh, that's the one I'm starting just because, I want to ride this whole wave and and get some Satan pussy...

00:23:47 Lucien Greaves: Right. And I'll write a whole thing about how you're not real and don't deserve the title. Yeah, we can we can play this whole thing out.

00:23:57 Matt Dwyer: Because it is, I mean, it is. It's interesting, and I never thought about it before. But it's like when the West Memphis Three was happening. No one in the satanic community stood up and said, like, we don't tie up boys and eat their dicks.

00:24:12 Shane Bugbee: I did. I mean, that's all part of our book that you know, the book that I put out there, you know, so there are individually... you're right as organizations, but there are plenty of individuals that did.

00:24:22 Matt Dwyer: It seems like, I mean...

00:24:23 Lucien Greaves: When he was saying, Well, Peter Gilmore wrote a piece about it. Look at all of what I've written, and I don't know if anybody's had the opportunity to look at it, but I mentioned it on the Vice piece site, I, there's a long body of work on process.org and things like that. And I've been I've been very much involved in trying to beat down the modern trumps everything else. doesn't get you that far when you're just writing essays and stuff like that. You know, I've gotten a ton of hate mails, threats and everything else. But, and I've tried, I've tried to ruin careers, I'm still trying to do serious harm within therapy and country and that kind of thing indoctrinating people into these bizarre conspiracy notions and everything else. And this is this is an extension of my effort to try to do that do and then go after these people progressively in an organized fashion.

00:25:27 Matt Dwyer: Yeah, you know, actually a debt is something I wanted to mention, because the there is somebody who left a long. I'm trying to find the I have it in my notes, a long comment about saying how you're inc... Incorrect. Oh, I have to take issue with this. His rejection of reports of satanic ritual abuse that became rampant in the late 1970s and early 80s. Now they have been, it's there's so this dame is claiming that you're wrong, that there were all these satanic abuses. And she pointed out a book by Franklin. Oh, the Franklin Scandal Does that ring a bell? What is named in a book by Nick Briant? Do any of those names ring a bell?

00:26:15 Lucien Greaves: Yeah, I would... I would direct a moron like that to my article, on Ted Gunderson. He was a former FBI man who, who is absolutely insane. He worked on the Franklin scandal and what the Franklin scandal was, is there was there was extortion and racketeering going on in his credit union in Omaha, Nebraska, and of course, gunners, and it's in there. And he was like, you know, he was one of those guys who look up in the sky for jet liners, and they're dropping poisons at everyone because they're leaving contrails in the sky. You know, he has to know the truth about about JFK, Pearl Harbor. Every conspiracy theory possible, he claimed to have some kind of direct knowledge of it. And he was he was, I refer to him as a public paranoid. He had severe mental problems, he would get roll ups in the mail, and he certainly are full of boys. I have his FBI file from he died after record of him. And he would record these things all the time. There's no validity to them. You're just paranoid Wolf. And he won several on investigation as a private investigator in one of those investigations for the Franklin scandal. So he gets him. And there's these kinds of extortion, racketeering, but he turns it into there must be a finanical doing pedophilia on the background. And so this was picked up by the fringe culture as well as some more on in politics, wrote a book about it. Now, there's just this whole kind of, like, like everything to understand work. Now there's this kind of fear theory from culture that latched on to it and I'll say this FBI that really announced that it was true therefore it must be described all the all the radical, bizarre things he would say. So this woman, she's typical, I get those kinds of responses all the time. She's an idiot, you know. To understand this responsible for the McMartin case, I don't know if you know about that. That was one of the early daycare abuse cases were to kind of call for abusing his kids and all that crap. And they claimed tunnels underneath McCartan. It was Gundersen. He went there and he dug tunnels under the under preschool and reclaimed that the tunnels were already there, they have just been filled it and they could tell because the dirt was loose or whatever else, you know, in understanding that was also the one who won the Geoffrey McDonald case whether McDonald was guilty or not. I'm not sure if you're familiar with that one. But he was at a at Fort Bragg. He claimed that his wife and children were murdered. And then he was the one who ended up going to prison. He said, Charles Manson, like if he called came in. And of course Gunderson came in that turned in to have taken a call. So anyways, yeah, there's a there's a rich and detailed history of a conspiracy folklore but there's still no credible evidence for it. You'll have idiots popping on all the time saying, Well, this story is backed by former FBI man and, and other credible people that they won't look at the actual evidence to be laughable. It is.

00:29:47 Matt Dwyer: It's amazing too, because it's like, because it's the FBI. People are like, "well, it's it's got to be accurate. They would never do anything corrupt. Fred Hampton." it's like, it's like they're the FBI has decades and decades. Have corrupt behavior on top of like, just on top of this weird conspiracy people just buying into bullshit. It's like...

00:30:09 Lucien Greaves: Well Gunderson, started out under Hoover. And what's terrifying is that he made it high up in the ranks. And he seemed to move with the FBI during the, during the Cold War. And it seemed like he was no less a conspiracy theorist that just went on noticed, because they were searching for the communists everywhere and understandably really pushing for stronger police powers. He these correspondence with him and the fact that she just put the entire FBI file online for people to read it. Because it's fascinating when you when you go through somebody's FBI file. There's a lot of redundancy and paperwork and you know, Standard HR procedural stuff but some of the memorandum and everything else are just are just amazing where he is actually pushing. I think Webster was the director at the time and he was pushing for increased how to be able to use search and seizure and covert operations before headcrab credible events and criminal behavior, because his claim was that we couldn't wait till two we had evidence of wrongdoing, because we were now reaching this was a joke terrorists there just happened in like the 60s or 70s kind of rhetoric has been carrying around all this time. And so, Gundersen was very much for the jackbooted squads. And then, when he was granted these excess powers, he retired. Some couple years later, it's obvious from the paperwork that Webster weren't getting along. And then he went into private property, because employee apparent just insane and paranoid he was, was seemed like he was paranoid was based on his own, on his fear is that his own actions from before would be acted upon. You know, while he was pushing for these increased hours of surveillance and everything else while he was within the FBI, when he was out, he constantly feared that those hours of surveillance were being used against him.

00:32:26 Matt Dwyer: You know, it's interesting because you were saying it that the, this guy was pushing a dunker son was pushing for these powers back in the 60s, which is a lot of what's going on post 9-11. And, um, is there any, has anyone ever actually written an extensive book about that, because that seems like a very, very strong thing in the FBI is that they're always struggling to get more power and to kind of like these nut jobs within the FBI is fighting to get more power, and it's to fuck with people. It's like, is there any extensive studies on that?

00:33:06 Lucien Greaves: So it's a pretty good book not too long ago. And I really regret not being able to remember what, what it is right now. The title is the history of AI, which I used when I was putting together, right, like stories, I understand. But I actually thought of pitching a, a book where the focus would be Gundersen in the process, tell the story of the FBI, up to the point in which he had a very long career with them. From Hoover to Webster, I think, I don't think it was way further than that. But but those were some key moments within FBI s3 and the increase of surveillance and a lot of it has to do with who the director is at that time. It was, it was somebody else. Gunderson may have gotten his increased power. So yeah, that's always something to look out for. And you know, you can't take somebody on authority and just say, Well, this has been the FBI. He knows what he's talking about, obviously, which is the kind of which is what you get from the conspiracy theory crowd. There's always some, some lone idiot to some psychiatry, associative Identity Disorder, or public paranoid, former FBI guy like to understand that if you're going to be real selective with the information you take in your you know, you can find somebody who seems credible to tell your conspiracy narrative, but the Franklin scandal is idiotic and I really have lost my tolerance for the people who hold on to those things.

00:34:47 Matt Dwyer: Yeah, this conspiracy theory world. It's amazing because it's like, they'll claim they have facts, but they'll ignore blatant obvious facts. It's like they'll just hold on for dear life. to like one or two things, and it's like, it's, it's like, yeah, it's like you can't even fucking deal with those people anymore. It's not worth it.

00:35:09 Lucien Greaves: Well, you get to the point where if you explain it away, it just becomes a bigger, that's my conspiracy theory often can be a degenerative spiral, because they come up with certain facts that they think prove their case. So say seek is proven, or contrary evidence comes out. And they'll hold on to the belief by claiming that to be part of a greater conspiracy, the evidence was manufactured or the police were in on activity, it always gets bigger and bigger. And that's part of the whole satanic ritual abuse thing. Soon, you know, you had this idea that the satanic cults were weasel their way into the court systems and the government's and were all over the place all over the world. And now they're, you know, to the true believers. They're just this ubiquitous force. And they're, they're everywhere, they have to be at least one in three people. And they're all remaining entirely silent about mass murder and destruction, and everything else that are happening, supposedly right under our noses.

00:36:14 Matt Dwyer: Yeah, it's, it's, you have to question the psychology of what goes on with those people who are just willing to believe in such fantastic is it just is it like, do just is it because it's a lot more exciting to believe that that's how the world works, instead of actual fact?

00:36:34 Lucien Greaves: Part of part of a philosophy of religion, I think, and that's what I was saying, in my interview, how I feel, really, you need to be a narrative construct that defines our life and our works. And we see that cognitively as people, that's just a dish, just a fact or existence, certainly idea that you don't want supernaturalism to go along with it. But to disappear, either, is that that, and it's really enticing. Because it gives them a sense of purpose, it is a motivation. It could solve problems of the world squarely in one category, it puts us against them, it makes everything nice, tidy, coherent, and fixable. You know, if we could take on the enemy, we'd be okay. Things don't randomly happen. You know, terrible things don't randomly happen to happen to people, people don't die without some kind of nefarious plot in the background. So what's funny is often cites the fact that some of their beliefs are so horrific as evidence of the veracity of the story of the claim, because who would want to believe otherwise, we will say this, were the people who claimed satanic ritual abuse claim that claim that say that the story is true, or if it cannot be true, but really, it gives them purpose, and it gives them meaning. It makes them right.

00:38:09 Shane Bugbee: I think the conspiracy, is not just a reflection of our educational system, I think it's just people have the limited understanding of what's going on. It's almost like it's almost like you could see it disappearing, where you have all this information on the internet, you know, where you're able to put your story together a little better than just assuming that one piece of fact, is, is all you need to hang your story on?

00:38:36 Matt Dwyer: Yeah, that's it.

00:38:37 Lucien Greaves: Yeah. Do you think the internet could help but you see these people kind of segment off and get very tribal, and they think of anything else any disconfirming information that contradicts their stories.

00:38:52 Shane Bugbee: So that's true, but though but their children are where I placed my hope, I guess, or when I look at things, it is, you know, evolution is slow. So those people are gonna exist and they're, they're gonna die off too.

00:39:04 Matt Dwyer: Yeah, right.

00:39:05 Lucien Greaves: Right. You're right. I do think that the the internet culture is still still forming. This is still playing out.

00:39:15 Matt Dwyer: Yeah, it seems like true critical thought seems to be at least currently. Something that's fading a little bit. It's like people really it and there's so many things. I see so many people knee jerk react to articles posted on the on like Facebook and stuff. And sometimes it's like, they're not looking at the source. They're not looking at who wrote it. They're just being like, well, it must be true. It's like it's really...

00:39:39 Shane Bugbee: Fading? I think it's just blossoming.

00:39:42 Matt Dwyer: Ah... critical thought?

00:39:45 Shane Bugbee: Yeah, I don't think we've really ever experienced that and, like a lot like we do with the internet, you know, with the internet or certain, you know, I've experienced that. I think I'm naturally a critical thinker. But I think it's just blossoming.

00:40:00 Lucien Greaves: But what's, what's the phrase? A real true bad idea only goes away one death at a time. Some of these people will never let go, but they will die. And some of them are getting kind of old. So Ted Gonderson is dead. And a lot of a lot of the Satanic Panic crowd are there no spring chicken and hopefully nobody will really take up their the idiocy that they've brought to us.

00:40:32 Matt Dwyer: I hope so... Now going back to the whole Lucien Greaves. What, what spawned this whole conversation is now, why? What made you choose Lucien Greaves? And not just be yourself? How did that? What made it more enticing to somebody else?

00:40:53 Lucien Greaves: Well, because I always have this kind of controversy around me, where people accuse me of being a Satanist. And I had no real motivation to take that label and throw it back at them at the time. I was I was simply consultant at first. And he just wanted to set up a Facebook page before the Rick shot thing where we could have a presence online and that way an event page for the people on tour to see that that's what we're doing. We can't set up an account page or or business page or anything like that. You have their profile to do it with and I didn't want to put that on my own profile. So Hussein Reese Congreve so set up in such a way that there were three of us that could use it in postings whose salaries so none of us were losing very few who were all losing. It was only during the rick Scott became Lucy because I started field in the media started really had to take things over at that point.

00:42:15 Matt Dwyer: And when you... I'm sorry what...

00:42:17 Shane Bugbee: There was a point where Doug called me and said, "Hey, Shane, what do you think you might want to do this to play this Lucien Greaves character?" I gave my 'em my fee. You know, I was like, well, here's what I'll take. I wrote the number on a napkin and never heard back from them.

00:42:34 Matt Dwyer: That's you would have been a good Lucien Greaves. Don't get me wrong. I know, Doug, you said there was some controversy before we did you cause before. So that's why you didn't want to take it on as your name. I've missed what that controversy was.

00:42:50 Lucien Greaves: Oh, well, the controversy I've always had with the conspiracy theorists, I've always been debunking these idiotic notion of ritual abuse, and that type of thing. And there's always been this kind of response from people saying, well, you're a satanist. And I would always reply and say, "I'm not a Satanist. I'm an atheist. I don't have supernatural beliefs. I don't worship Satan." And this has nothing to do with this is about critical thinking. This is about the facts. So I was just respond to those peole that way. So it didn't seem like a solid move to me to all of a sudden come out as the leader of TST.

00:43:33 Matt Dwyer: Now, and like now that it is...

00:43:35 Shane Bugbee: And there's good reason to hide from this stuff, you know, people are freaked out. But it's a word that it will incite riots. I mean, I was when you run out of time, I'll tell you. I've never I thought it was a fucking joke. Because I lived in Chicago. So no one's paying attention to the word satan. When you're getting shot at and there's, you know, I mean, so much violence around you. A man moved to a such small town and it's, you know, I think I even heard Doug's voice go long when he was like, I never want to associate anything with sameness. And Mac, just tell your neighbors your say, Well, you're in LA. So they're like, really? What does that mean a Satanist. But that's a scary word for people. It really motivates. really decent. You know, I really, I really liked a lot of those people. And it was, it was hard to see them be so confused, like, they were ignorant. They were so confused by that. Like, we like Shane and Amy. They basically make cookies. They don't do anything. They're, they're nice people, but now we have to hate them because this word Satan.

00:44:36 Lucien Greaves: Right. And I understood that too. I want to make it clear that I understood the danger of doing this. And that's why I couldn't come come out and attach my name to this until we were ready to be completely clear about what we're doing. Let me change it. I am able to get my actual perspective out there.

00:45:00 Shane Bugbee: Let me ask Doug...

00:45:02 Lucien Greaves: ...very clearly, concisely...

00:45:03 Shane Bugbee: Doug how many? How many death threats have you gotten?

00:45:08 Lucien Greaves: You mean just now?

00:45:10 Shane Bugbee: Yeah.

00:45:11 Lucien Greaves: Or since the Vice piece or whatever?

00:45:15 Shane Bugbee: Yeah, let's say just since people... or any kind of affiliation with the word satan.

00:45:22 Lucien Greaves: I don't know. I don't know if we've seen death threats, yet. I actually know a lot of the, we get a lot of mail. I've always gotten a lot of mail about the philosophy, conspiracy theory debunking I've gotten. So I've always gotten a lot of hate mail. don't really look it over to too much. People send me an email, I make the effort to open it up and look at it. But if I see somebody ranting and raving, I don't put time and he's not amusing anymore. We're using that person. It's not anymore. So there's been some I can tell there's been some very negative mail. Most of it's been very positive, but there has been some negative and I don't know if any of it's actually degenerated into death. Yeah, we used fucking care. But...

00:46:09 Shane Bugbee: Yeah, we used to get a good handful of death threats and shit like that. So all I'm saying is, it can be scary to come out of the closet for any of your politics, for any political, political, you know, beliefs or statements.

00:46:25 Lucien Greaves: Like, I don't, I don't read it. You know, you can laugh at it while you're eating. It will stress you out eventually. So, for me, it's better just to prove over it feeds from an ad we put along. Once I really start thinking about it. I should tell him this or whatever. And there's just no point.

00:46:44 Matt Dwyer: It's almost like if you do that, because I was curious, like, I was like reading those comments in the article. It's like, god dammit, I wish they would respond. Because you put it then it's just like, these fucking people are never going to get it. It's going to be an endless. Like, I mean, I'm sure we've all made that mistake of replying to comments, and it just it's, it becomes a fucking shit fire.

00:47:06 Lucien Greaves: Yeah. I really surprised people before and even down in arguments. And, yeah, sometimes, sometimes you just have to call them. We'll just say, hey, go nowhere. But the thing about the comments after the speech, as if anybody has any sense will realize that those comments really don't address anything. That anyway, some of them are actually excuses for why what I say is true. So I don't know that I need to point that out. But since we saw, all right, my volume of emails and correspondence has really skyrocketed. So I'm not going to have the time to, to address every idiot's concerns.

00:48:01 Shane Bugbee: The only thing the only thing in those comments that continues to follow me, that bothers me that I, I have a hard time addressing because I just don't want is the Might is Right. You know, because I published a book called Might is Right, I'm a Nazi. You know, that that...

00:48:17 Lucien Greaves: I saw that too. But I thought those people must not have read the... they must not have read anymore of the piece. What kind of selective reading of a piece would you have to do to get theat from what you or I said?

00:48:32 Shane Bugbee: I get you, but I mean, it just follows it follows where it's like, how the fuck me as a publisher, how do I have? Why am I having to explain myself as to why publish the book? You know, I mean, it's just yeah. It's a fucking book, or, like, it's a fucking book and my publisher, you know?

00:48:52 Matt Dwyer: Yeah. Now...

00:48:54 Lucien Greaves: But also we explained quite clearly the history of it, and why it was relevant, why it was relevant to the topic. I also talked about the the decline in violence and rewarding altruism and compassion and the reality of today, and how it's about how strict brutal social darwinism thinking was actually, misinterpretations of evolutionary theories. It's all in there. So it's a very selective reading or willfull misinterpretation of what's being said in the article.

00:49:37 Matt Dwyer: People just hear something slightly that goes against what they believe they I think a lot of people stop thinking and just react.

00:49:46 Lucien Greaves: I think they know that. We're not saying anything of the tribe. I think they know that in there. They're just trying to search for ways in which to denigrate or downgrade whatever we're doing. Even if it doesn't work. Some of them are hoping people will skip straight to the comments without read. I think if anything people skip reading the comments at all.

00:50:11 Matt Dwyer: Now, the one thing too I wanted to ask about is the the, the the process the comp in wanting to come after you now that you're not Lucien Greaves anymore, does it? How does how was that thrown them a curveball down in the at the cemetery town?

00:50:29 Lucien Greaves: To be perfectly honest, we've been talking very seriously and talking with our lawyers about going there and turning myself in.

00:50:37 Matt Dwyer: Really?

00:50:40 Lucien Greaves: Yeah, because, fuck, why not, we've got nothing to hide, we did nothing wrong. The charge doesn't fit the crime, and, frankly, we think is bullshit and they should be cleared up, they shouldn't be hanging over my name. And if they want it, they should get it, I think you'll make fools of them. I don't know that they would be happy. If we decide that we're going over there to turn Jeremy in and me they won't be with ace, we may have a lawyer call up Meridian, Mississippi and tell them that I intend to do this. We're still considering this right now. But I wouldn't be surprised if they decide to drop the case, to that happens because I don't think I don't think they could come out looking good.

00:51:29 Shane Bugbee: Do the rest. You can hire the Phelps law firm to represent you in the civil suit.

00:51:38 Lucien Greaves: That would be funny, wouldn't it.

00:51:39 Shane Bugbee: And then they won't take you as a client, you can sue them, it'd be great. This is wonderful.

00:51:44 Lucien Greaves: Let everybody speculate that we're all in this together. It's all part of the same media.

00:51:53 Matt Dwyer: So if you if you go down there in turn yourself in, are you are you going to bring cameras and all that record all of this?

00:52:01 Lucien Greaves: So yeah, well, I haven't. We haven't reached out to anybody about this. But I would suspect that there would be something maybe place would be interested in. I have a feeling a lot of people would be interested in that. Maybe we could set up a press conference. I don't know. But But I go I have to be wearing the horns. Because as for my religious attire can you do what make a turtle can make a spectacle of it?

00:52:32 Matt Dwyer: Throw a curveball, though and wear the horns but wear like one of those 80s Wham shirts and just just to throw in some confusion. Yeah, just because people be like wham was and then just and then just say like you got into Satanism because of Wham. And just again, you can start a whole new weird trend.

00:52:55 Shane Bugbee: I've seen Doug...

00:53:00 Lucien Greaves: You know, they, they had a judge sign a warrant for my arrest. And I think at that time, they had no thoughts or hope or fear that I would actually come back to Lauderdale County and I kind of feel like they should.

00:53:20 Matt Dwyer: Yeah, I just I hope you have people ready with bail money because I wouldn't want to spend a fucking second in one of those jails.

00:53:27 Lucien Greaves: Well. The thing is, is where we're going to clear up... that's why we have a lawyer looking into it, is we want to be absolutely sure what we'd be walking into before I get there.

00:53:39 Matt Dwyer: Yeah, because I'm sure that some of them folk down in the jail ain't gonna be too gracious to you know, somebody they perceive as a Satanist.

00:53:53 Lucien Greaves: Right, but especially given my final comments on the second of those feats about my very presence Coco's degenerate into savage orgy of on occasion homosexuality.

00:54:06 Matt Dwyer: God that was such a great...

00:54:08 Lucien Greaves: Just given the idea of just given the idea of my my magical powers of sexual tutors and and how they just had no choice but to engage in those activities.

00:54:18 Matt Dwyer: Yeah, they might just stay far away from you to or you might make a lot of friends real quick. But outside of that, possibly turning yourself in. What would be what what are Are there any future plans for more of this or are you going to move on to something else are you going to or is there more for The Satanic Temple?

00:54:44 Lucien Greaves: A lot of people seem (to want to make the) Westboro Baptist Church a full time job and we're really not interested in doing too much more with those fools. We'll give them problems anytime we can but, um, right now, we're incorporating, we're getting together with holders and we're working out our religious exemption privileges for our membership, we're not seeking tax exempt status. And we actually want to push for churches, not good enough in water. But for female membership, we want to be able to assert their religious liberty that they're not beholden to invasive medical practices, like kind of vaginal ultrasounds or any other insulting procedures that have been laid upon them due to other religious zealots. And when it comes to corporal punishment for school in harm, another school does still allow for that. And we want to be able to claim religious exemption. And there was we'll have to agree that using their religion, they're not touchable in such a way by by school administration, because we don't allow for our kids to be beaten and where there have been church safe breaches we are going to walk in and it's the same privileges that any other organization has and to that end we want to do is in Florida and if there's a 10 commandments monument not so or house we're looking to put Satanic monuments. Yeah, type of things.

00:56:26 Matt Dwyer: It's interesting that like, no one has thought of that before it seems so obvious yet. It's also brilliant to be like, it's my religious right not to have an ultrasound before numbers, like it's like, you need to flip that on those people is absolutely brilliant.

00:56:44 Lucien Greaves: is thinking that there's just a religious agenda. While there's plenty of religions, and there's plenty of agendas. So if you're going to let one of them in the other can insert themselves into it. This is for everybody is this for all in the importance of non believers being able to assert their privileges, privileges and exemptions shouldn't just be for superstitious and people who adhere to supernatural beliefs.

00:57:18 Matt Dwyer: And if people wanted to get involved, The Satanic Temple has a website and a Facebook page and many things like that... Correct? And a Twitter.

00:57:31 Lucien Greaves: Yes, check out the lead page. A lot of people are interested in joining and they say it's not too clear on how to do it, I don't know how to make it more clear, but I'll work on the site, there is a join page and if people join for free and they'll be on our email list, but if you do want the certificate card or dollar processing fee, otherwise we'd be giving out a lot of material but you don't necessarily need that and we're gonna do our campaign individually and anybody can be involved with those whether they care to identify themselves as being part of our religion or not free to agree with whatever cause we might have going on and participate in any way.

00:58:18 Matt Dwyer: And what also is that because I was looking at it the other day the website with your writing on it which is goes into a lot into the these conspiracy theories and the repressed memory hokey bullshit on that what is what that's what is that website again?

00:58:38 Lucien Greaves: process.org

00:58:38 Matt Dwyer: process.org It's great. I was going through that I believe yesterday it's pretty pretty astounding and Shane bugbee do you got any...

00:58:47 Lucien Greaves: I do that page with a couple of...

00:58:49 Shane Bugbee: Yeah, forget about Dough. My website yeah... My website createdclasstrumpsrulingclass.com That's the or [unclear].com You know, and those are those are good starts

00:59:02 Matt Dwyer: Yeah, you're in your book is amazing by the end people should which you've been on the show before but people need to buy that goddamn book.

00:59:09 Shane Bugbee: Yeah, just send a $5 Bill Pay Pal that's fine. That's good enough.

00:59:14 Matt Dwyer: Oh, yeah, that too that that works as well.

00:59:16 Shane Bugbee: Yeah.

00:59:17 Matt Dwyer: Well, thank you guys again very much for joining me and I greatly enjoyed it. I hope you enjoyed yourselves.

00:59:32 [Outro]