Podcasts/GodlessRebelution-Ep50

Godless Rebelution Ep. 50 - With Doug Mesner (A.K.A. Lucien Greaves)
May 14, 2015
We were privileged to have Doug Mesner (A.K.A. Lucien Greaves) join us via Skype for an interview to discuss many of the exciting things The Satanic Temple has going on right now as well as his plans for the future. We were also joined in-studio by the always awesome Temell Buggs, who rants with us about the death of another atheist blogger in Bangladesh, the recent happenings in Baltimore, and whether it's OK to burn the American flag.
https://godlessrebelution.podbean.com/e/50-with-doug-mesner-aka-lucien-greaves/

Transcript

Unknown Speaker 0:00 Just that just think about the Muslims at this moment who are blowing themselves up convinced that they are agents of God's will, there is absolutely nothing that Dr. Craig can can say against their behavior in moral terms, apart from his own faith based claim that they're praying to the wrong god. If they had the right God, what they were doing would be good on Divine Command Theory. Now, I'm obviously not saying that all the Dr. Craig or all religious people are psychopaths and psychotics, but This to me is the true horror of religion. It allows perfectly decent and sane people to believe by the billions. What only lunatics could believe on their own. If you wake up tomorrow morning, thinking that saying a few Latin words over your pancakes is going to turn them into the body of Elvis Presley. Okay, you have lost your mind. Okay, but if you think more or less the same thing about a cracker and the body of Jesus, you're just a Catholic.

Unknown Speaker 1:02 Oh, yeah. Catholics are weird they are when they're eating some guy's dead body every Sunday in their mind.

Unknown Speaker 1:10 Yeah, I wonder I don't think very many Catholics actually think about that when they're doing it. You know what I mean? Like that. The whole point is that they're blessing the Eucharist. And and it's supposed to actually turn into the flesh of Jesus Christ and the wine is supposed to actually be blood.

Unknown Speaker 1:28 I mean, is there a kid going up?

Unknown Speaker 1:31 Oh, today's Sunday I get to go and be fucking cannibal

Unknown Speaker 1:37 you know, it's pretty funny as I was having a conversation with someone and we're talking about Cuba and opening the embargo and they were saying how they still actually practice voodoo down there and I'm all well you guys practice voodoo to your mood is just

Unknown Speaker 1:51 yeah, you you mumble different things and have different dances but it's

Unknown Speaker 1:56 from Haiti anyway.

Unknown Speaker 1:57 I think Voodoo is from Haiti.

Unknown Speaker 1:59 But Africa but I mean, through Haiti.

Unknown Speaker 2:02 I don't know. Maybe it's in Cuba, but I don't know where the I don't know where the Voodoo

Unknown Speaker 2:07 like different forms of like Santeria. Possibly. Yeah. Common in South America. Yeah, from what I hear.

Unknown Speaker 2:15 Welcome to the godless revolution everybody. I'm Dan. I'm Ryan. That's me. Oh, and Matt. And we have tamale in studio with us tonight.

Unknown Speaker 2:23 I am Bizzle.

Unknown Speaker 2:27 Basil. Is this your third time actually like being in the studio?

Unknown Speaker 2:30 Time in studio and what did it find studio it is?

Unknown Speaker 2:34 Well, thank you. We've made some improvements since

Unknown Speaker 2:36 last time you were here. Nellis International.

Unknown Speaker 2:41 I think well, maybe I think Tracy and I have decided on heathen Hacienda as. As the name of the location.

Unknown Speaker 2:48 What about for the sheathing guests.

Unknown Speaker 2:52 They're still heathens. I know. You got to bring sex into it.

Unknown Speaker 2:56 Gosh, yeah, Matt's always sexist.

Unknown Speaker 2:59 So we're really excited. We're gonna have the Satanic Temple spokesperson Lucien Greaves joining us here in just a little bit. For those who are not aware of the Satanic Temple is doing some fantastic work. Fucking amazing stuff. And I love I love listening to Lucien speak. He's an excellent orator. He writes very, very well. He's very eloquent. And they've just been doing some really amazing things with women's reproductive rights without being to protect children, from corporal punishment in schools and feeling and filling the perfect niche. As far as pushing back against a lot of the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. Bullshit.

Unknown Speaker 3:46 They're using a religion to fight religion.

Unknown Speaker 3:49 Yes. I think sometimes that's a great example for believers in what it is that they're actually advocating for.

Unknown Speaker 3:56 They're fighting fire with hellfire. I just thought of that. I'm so proud of myself. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 4:08 So you little devil, you.

Unknown Speaker 4:09 Yeah, no, fuck no, I'm getting littler. I'm not little when I'm getting littler.

Unknown Speaker 4:15 Just because you're a ginger.

Unknown Speaker 4:16 I lost 12 I've lost 12.4 pounds really?

Unknown Speaker 4:21 So while you're doing this whole weight loss challenge with the other. What that's about kin Can we send you stuff and force you to eat it? Don't or is it only I already camp participants are allowed to send

Unknown Speaker 4:38 I already do self sabotage every Wednesday with the beers in Cuba Libras. But okay, yeah, there's a lot of self sabotage happen and already, nobody else needs to sabotage.

Unknown Speaker 4:53 I'm sure we could convince a certain someone to drive down here with a smoker and have a giant feast in your front yard. and say Dan, come get some good meat

Unknown Speaker 5:02 our, our southern our self Cana media correspondent Mr. Baba Han line. I don't know if Bob actually listens to the show. I think he just wants to come back on the show.

Unknown Speaker 5:16 I would I wouldn't have him back. Well, she

Unknown Speaker 5:18 likes to talk on the show.

Unknown Speaker 5:23 Well, we'll figure it out.

Unknown Speaker 5:24 If he wants to Skype in sometime.

Unknown Speaker 5:26 Okay, quick. Nobody ever tagged Bob in this or tell him that he's in it. And we'll just have to see if he actually listens. He probably will because we're going to be talking to Lucien. So,

Unknown Speaker 5:37 if you're listening, Bob, this is your one time offer. If you want to be on the show, again, bring message us in the Facebook or send us a personal email to golf revolution@gmail.com

Unknown Speaker 5:48 And tell us that you'll be bringing us some fabulous smoked meats.

Unknown Speaker 5:53 And that awesome mac and cheese. Yes. That was

Unknown Speaker 5:55 really good was good. from scratch. Making like my mother man.

Unknown Speaker 6:03 Yeah, it was delicious stuff. Um, so yeah, we're gonna go ahead and get dog on the line here. And we'll be right back. Yeah, we can hear you really well. Doug, how you doing? Good. How are you? I'm doing really well, man. Long time no chat.

Lucien Greaves 6:20 Yes, but I'm always around.

Unknown Speaker 6:24 Hell yeah. You are you fuck you're everywhere. Man. You're all over the interwebs doing interviews with salon. HuffPo. Slade, NBC, ABC. You're all over the place, man.

Lucien Greaves 6:37 Did Huffington Post run something today?

Unknown Speaker 6:40 I don't know about today. But I know I've seen stuff in the past with from HuffPo with you in it.

Lucien Greaves 6:45 Okay. I'm particularly thinking of this week, because I thought this this week would have more media for us, actually, with the lawsuit in Missouri. We got some significant press. But I think there's a lot more to come as people realize this is progressing forward.

Unknown Speaker 7:01 Oh, yeah. Well, it's I mean, it's kind of a landmark case, this is the first case that I've, I did a little bit of searching to see if anybody's made any kind of similar challenge. And I haven't been able to find anything online. So that could just be speaking my lack of

Lucien Greaves 7:15 skill or trying to draw parallel precedent cases on this one that just don't exist. And you see some ignorant comments like, whoever the yeah asshole was they got to speak to interview with Daily Beast who was saying something about how our exemption doesn't stand because the law 72 waiting our 72 hour waiting period for the abortions doesn't directly discriminate against us in any way. And in that there was some kind of overturn on a similar case. But fact of the matter is all all laws are broadly applied. If this guy were to try to draw a parallel to any real world case where RiFRA has been leveraged. I don't know how he would come out saying that we don't have a real claim. But there was a counter argument, at least presenting the Daily Beast piece that did cover that and cover. How idiotic those commentaries were.

Unknown Speaker 8:09 Yeah, I, I haven't seen anybody make any really good arguments against the case at all. Any any arguments that I've really seen against it have all been related to a complete lack of understanding of what is actually going on?

Lucien Greaves 8:24 Yeah, it, you know, it doesn't mean we'll necessarily win. You know, but I do think we have a strong case and in the people who are saying we absolutely don't have a case, are definitely not looking at the case we're making.

Unknown Speaker 8:37 Yeah, I totally agree. Anyway, I haven't really introduced you. We're speaking with Lucien Greaves, spokesperson for the Satanic Temple.

Unknown Speaker 8:47 Is it Lucien or Lucian? I've heard both.

Unknown Speaker 8:50 Lucian Lucia and Lucian. Alright. How did you How did you arrive at the pseudonym of Lucian Hargreaves?

Lucien Greaves 8:59 Well, originally, we wanted to put up a Facebook page for the Satanic Temple. And you couldn't do that without tying it to an individual's account. And I was trying to remain entirely in the background and in not tying myself publicly to the Satanic Temple at the beginning. So I started a separate Facebook account and arbitrarily chosen named Lucian grieves and never actually thought that I would, I would be acting as Lucian grieves

Unknown Speaker 9:32 Well, it's not a bad name.

Unknown Speaker 9:35 Well and I and my understanding is that you are running away from your your Jewish name, I get all my news from Ann Coulter.

Lucien Greaves 9:45 Oddly enough, I'm not Jewish.

Unknown Speaker 9:49 Well, yeah, I had kind of wondered where where Lucien Greaves had come from. So, you know, I did some searches on Lucian, and on greaves, and like You know, I saw that Lucien is his light in another language. I can't even remember what it was. And then Greaves can be like, leg armor. Like, I'm not quite sure how those two go together like light armor, maybe? I don't know.

Lucien Greaves 10:16 I don't know either. But now there's an R in the middle, it's Lucian are aggrieved. Exactly on Facebook and a lot of people have asked me what is the R stands for and there's been speculation in this is exactly how the R happened. All of a sudden, one day I found myself locked out of the Lucian grieves account on Facebook. And this is in light of their real name policy. And so I would, you could convert this to a to a fan page, which I did, it's after that, but in order to access the account at all, they were first asking that I enter in or either change the name or enter in identification, send them identification to show that I'm actually Lucian grieves. So instead I just I did a test and so if I just add a middle initial will that take that as a name change and then allow me back into the account so you know with no thought in my head I just hit R and then it accepted it and I was able to get back into the account and change it into a fan page so that's why interesting I'm now Lucia Hargreaves.

Unknown Speaker 11:25 We should still just keep some mystery behind the hour Yeah, under

Lucien Greaves 11:29 no mystery now.

Unknown Speaker 11:31 What have you What have you heard as some of the some of the theories about the our

Lucien Greaves 11:36 hypothesis? I hardly read that shit anymore. Well, I'm kind of horrified even read my inbox seriously, especially on Facebook. I heart. Look at the stuff I get in. There's something about Facebook, just like there's something about YouTube comments. Yeah, there's something about it about private messages on Facebook. And YouTube comments. That's where the that's where the stupidest things happen. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 12:03 Vile stuff.

Unknown Speaker 12:04 You could always do your own segment of, you know, hate mail.

Unknown Speaker 12:09 Lucy. Yeah, Lucy hate mail bag. Yeah.

Lucien Greaves 12:13 Richard Dawkins did that to great effect. Yeah, I loved it. But some of ours is really schizophrenic though. That's,

Unknown Speaker 12:20 I would imagine yours is a little bit more, probably a little bit more vitriol than, than even Dawkins would get.

Lucien Greaves 12:27 You know, we also get a lot of messages from people in Africa, people in Nigeria and other people who've been negatively affected by idiotic missionaries going around spreading delusion and superstition to them. But these are people who are eager to sell their soul for money in the real world.

Unknown Speaker 12:45 Yeah. Well, we're

Unknown Speaker 12:47 kind of hoping that you know, we there there might be some sort of a interview type element to this, but we we mostly just want to have kind of a fun chat. I know there's a lot of there's a lot of stuff out there with you kind of going through the same stuff and you know, Satanic Panic and all that. All that all that kind of same perfunctory answers you you give we can do that if you want but we just kind of wanted to chat and I should say that since the American Atheist conference convention that Dan has been a little mesmerized

Lucien Greaves 13:22 I was pretty happy with the outcome of that conference. I got a standing ovation. In fact, I really thought there would be a lot of a lot of pushback to having me there at all. Jennifer Michael heck expressed reservations about having me invited, but she, she was good enough to express them to me. And after I gave my lecture at American Atheists, which she was good enough to come see, she declared herself a convert.

Unknown Speaker 13:50 Well, it was funny, because when Memphis had on the news that the atheist American mansion is coming and a Satanist. And a Satanist is that

Unknown Speaker 14:02 you? You helped make us atheists not look so bad or frightening? Thanks.

Lucien Greaves 14:08 Well, that's what David Silverman was saying. He was very enthusiastic. He said, You know, we were always the bad guys. And you guys are even worse. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 14:21 Well, which is weird, because you guys are doing some fantastic things. So at the start of the call, we were talking about the case and what's been going on. And I guess maybe we should get a little bit of background on that. What What can you tell us about the case that we were talking about?

Lucien Greaves 14:35 Oh, in Missouri with the abortion exemptions, yeah. So last summer. Directly following Hobby Lobby. We finished writing up an exemption form for women from informed consent materials that are wished upon them state mandated informed consent materials that have to do with abortion in in a certain number of states. I don't remember how It is these, you know, these materials which are which are really state propaganda. They're not medically legitimate. They're not scientifically legitimate. It's it's anti abortion propaganda is pushed on women. And we feel that given our tenants regarding scientific belief, and that kind of thing, that this is kind of an affront to our value system. So women who share our deeply held beliefs should be exempted from having to go through this torment of being having this having this propaganda pushed on them. Anyways, so that exemption had been sitting around. Oh, well, the reason Hobby Lobby tied into that was because Hobby Lobby argued that certain types of pharmaceuticals were abortifacients when they're not, but they believe that they are. So we felt that that gave us a much stronger footing when it came to denying that the informed consent materials have scientific legitimacy, because now we really don't have to argue that on empirical grounds, we can say that it's a matter of religious opinion. So happens, we're right, but we don't have to, you know, go through that procedure.

Unknown Speaker 16:03 Yeah, you don't have to provide any evidence to back any of that up, you can just say it doesn't matter, because it's my religious belief.

Lucien Greaves 16:08 Right, right. So it's within the purview of religious opinion, just as apparently the idea of When does life begin is an idea that it's within the purview of religious belief, and you're not going to see the the other side of this argument arguing against that. So they can have it really both ways. So anyways, that exemption has been sitting around and available for people since last summer, but it was only now that a woman in Missouri, who was a member of the Satanic Temple decided to take it up, she wanted to terminate a pregnancy and in Missouri, they subjected you to all this informed consent material. And they also demand that you wait 72 hours from your first visitation to the clinic, three days. So there's only one clinic in Missouri. And our our woman lived about five hours away from there, I believe. So that three hour waiting period is a major burden, you know, three of those reading work or traveling twice or, you know, overnight lodging and that type of thing. Yeah. So we felt that being that the informed consent materials are illegitimate to us anyways, and there's no medical purpose for the 72 hour waiting period, we kind of exempt her from both. So we sent her there with a waiver of exemption, which of course, the clinic denied on the grounds of state laws. So we immediately filed suit against the Governor and Attorney General of Missouri, on behalf of who we're calling Mary Doe in, in fighting to preserve our anonymity, even in court. And, and that's that's where we're at, we weren't able to secure pro bono support. I must mention, so we are crowdfunding for the legal fees. So check us you know, keep checking the Facebook page and Indiegogo kind of going for the legal fees right now. But I imagine the state's going to be willing to throw in pretty heavy on fighting this one. So yeah, gonna keep up. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 18:12 I posted the Indiegogo campaign out on my Facebook and like I shared it out in local atheist group here, their Facebook group and on our page for the godless revolution. And it looks like it's, it's been pretty successful so far. Um,

Lucien Greaves 18:31 yeah, so far. It's just as soon as the media dies on something like this, the funding generally completely dies to the story might kick up again, what we had filed was an emergency injunction. So I imagine I imagine there's going to have to be motion on this very, very soon. So

Unknown Speaker 18:50 yeah, um, let's see. And I was I was out here looking and talked it over with Tracy and we actually agreed we're gonna go ahead and donate to this as well. So anybody who's interested, you can go to indiegogo.com/projects/well. Just do a search for Indiegogo. We'll post it out on the godless godless revolution. Facebook page, I'll put it on my page. We'll be putting it all around. But yeah, I'm actually making a donation this evening of $500 to that, so I know every little bit every little bit counts. And yeah,

Lucien Greaves 19:31 oh, yeah. The lawyers will burn through this shit. We're so disappointed in the ACLU. We are really, really worried about not getting pro bono representation. And the Friday before last Friday, we had a guy from the ACLU was really excited to hear from us and said he'd be looking over all the materials over the weekend. Of course, he didn't commit anything or or anything like that. But then the next week, we're just trying to call him and he was allegedly on a conference call. He's been on a conference call since last Monday.

Unknown Speaker 20:06 It's a very, very important case. You have no idea

Unknown Speaker 20:10 why it was our department

Lucien Greaves 20:11 journalist. It also told me that the ACLU, apparently the national office gave him a very bizarre answer when he was when he was asking what their position was on this. And it sounded sounded scripted, and sounded like it was the line they were supposed to deliver, which was that they couldn't comment on the case in with for unspecified reasons or whatever, which he said was an answer he hadn't gotten before. So I really have a strong impression that the ACLU doesn't want to take this case, for one thing, but they don't want to make any comment as to why they're not taking it. And they don't want to be open as to why. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 20:48 it's like, they it's like, they don't want to take it, but they don't want to say why they're not taking it either. They don't want to have to say they're not taking it. Because, right, right, because then that would turn off a lot of people who are very supportive of the case, and and also are supportive of the ACLU, generally speaking, and and to have them, you know, be so wishy washy, or or to say that they won't take it for whatever reason. I think what upset a whole lot of people and they don't really have a good reason for not taking it

Unknown Speaker 21:17 makes you wonder what their fear is?

Lucien Greaves 21:19 Well, well, you we run into that a lot. Actually, we run into people who, you know, ostensibly would be allies, but they feel like they're walking into a minefield with any association with us, or they feel it's the wrong, wrong image to put forward by having any type of association with us. And that that I think, is really backward, especially when it comes to this. And I'm not saying that's what the ACLU did, they wouldn't make sense if that's what the ACLU was doing. I have no idea what what the game is, I can speculate, but there have been other writings from people that say, this is bad for the reproductive rights movement, or this puts forward the wrong image, or this just fuels the fears of religious conservative idiots and that type of thing, which I just feel is bullshit. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 22:08 What doesn't fuel their fears? I mean,

Lucien Greaves 22:11 right, you can't start coddling their sense of superstition and stupidity. And the fact of the matter is, we're not claiming to speak for the entirety of the reproductive rights movement, there's, that, of course, has overlap with a lot of different sectors of society. It's just as a matter of fact, a woman in Missouri, holds true to our tenets and believes that this was against her religion. Now, the ramifications of us winning the case, of course, are far broader than that. And it's something that you would think other people for reproductive rights would celebrate.

Unknown Speaker 22:46 Yeah, I'll be celebrating for multiple reasons. I mean, this could even take the whole religious, I'm trying to think a name of that last year getting the whole Hobby Lobby lawsuit and wipe it clean, like, well, if anybody can claim they have a religious right to this, well, then it's no longer anything special for us Christians.

Lucien Greaves 23:04 Right, that was something I was saying to salon, I mean, there's a possibility that there could be some saving value to the to the ruling, even if we lose would still be a shame, of course, if we lost, but if it helps to help define where the limits are actually going to be for the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, which has been running amok across the nation is, you know, more and more conservatives tried to pass it as a way to discriminate against against the godless homos that they're so afraid of.

Unknown Speaker 23:39 Homosexual change gears here just a little bit. Unless, did you have another question for him?

Unknown Speaker 23:44 Oh, I have I have plenty of questions we can get to I'm sure. Okay. What do you got going on? Well,

Unknown Speaker 23:48 I was just I was I was actually really curious how difficult it was to get into the Illuminati.

Lucien Greaves 23:56 It's not so bad. I mean, it's just a blood thing. So I was kind of born with the, with the Illuminati spoon in my mouth.

Unknown Speaker 24:08 No, yeah. So so I just made the $500 donation. That should that should be added to the pool right now. I'll be sure that I post about that some more. So much. Hey, it's a pleasure, man. I am a big, big fan of everything you guys are doing. After the convention, I told these guys that I was drunk texting you on I think the Saturday of the convention. And, and that yeah, that I didn't get to hang out with you nearly as much as I would have liked because, I mean, I really, I'm a huge, huge fan of all the work that you guys are doing. How long have you been associated or affiliated with the Satanic Temple?

Lucien Greaves 24:49 Well, I helped found the Satanic Temple. So it's been about three years now I think. And so I've been Satan's PR guy for that long. I must say he's never looked better.

Unknown Speaker 25:05 Well, Dan agree was worried. I was worried

Lucien Greaves 25:07 for a while that once once my real identity came out and was attached to the Satanic Temple, it might be impossible for me to ever get a job again. But now I'm thinking if I went to a PR firm

Unknown Speaker 25:21 Well, I mean, you could easily point to it and go look, man, if I can make Satan look this good. Imagine what I can do for your company. Right?

Lucien Greaves 25:27 Exactly. Exactly. Working for Monsanto.

Unknown Speaker 25:35 That would be excellent. Actually. We're, we're, we're very big proponents for the GMO food sciences. So, so you said there's been about three years I think the very first thing I ever read about you, and I don't know how comfortable you are, or how difficult it is in kind of trying to maintain two separate identities right? I mean, do you are you okay, currently with with kind of switching between your, your real name and and the pseudonym that was chosen for the Satanic Temple work?

Lucien Greaves 26:06 It's just a pain in the ass now, because all the journalists want to want to refer to me as as Doug Messner. Because they know that's the case. If I asked some usually to put that I'm also known as Lucian grieves, and try to lessen the, the confusion people might have, because no matter how long this carries on how generally it's known, there's still going to be people confused by by the two names, but no, now now, there's really no, no problem beyond that. I don't. It's not like I'm playing a role. It's not like I put on a persona for Lucian grieves. It's just just the name. You know, I'm lucky enough to chat with John Waters every now and again. And he he said he, he prefers Lucian, and he's gonna refer to me as solution for duck.

Unknown Speaker 26:56 Well, maybe you'll just have to officially change your name dilution.

Lucien Greaves 27:00 Yeah, I don't know.

Unknown Speaker 27:02 That doesn't sound like you're really thinking about that. Well, yeah, I kind of wondered how difficult it was to try to maintain the two, the two things I know, I get confused when when I talk to you, you know, and, and, you know, I see that you post sometimes, and in different places as Lucian and other places as yourself. And I didn't know if you were still trying to, you know, maintain a clear delineation between the two or, or if, you know, I mean, the cat was out of the bag, basically, when Vice ran their story that I read shade, it's probably been almost three years ago now.

Lucien Greaves 27:39 Yeah, that was not long after the pink mass. Yeah. And that was when I really had to come out if I wanted to, you know, come out before somebody else writing some kind of Expo ze in which they think, you know, giving my real name and some of my background would be would be a story or whatever, because I wasn't expecting the the amount of attention that pink mascot, but there was a lady I knew who was working as an editor at one of the news venues. And she was seeing these stories about the pink mass and she could see that it was me. And she contacted me and said that she was apologetic, but she said that she was going to have to tell them that I had been lying to them. You know that I was giving them misinformation and she wasn't going to stand by and see this happen that I was neither Lucian grieves, nor a Satanist. And and I told her that I was both of those things. You know, nobody else was really Lucian grieves. I don't know why you would say that one guy who you didn't know before turned out to be some other guy you didn't know. But she was said she was saying that I wasn't a Satanist. And I told her now if you're gonna say that, I'm gonna have to sue.

Unknown Speaker 29:01 I'll only allow so much ma'am.

Lucien Greaves 29:04 Why? Well, to her Of course, there was a contradiction between the atheism and the Satanism. And that's a that's a real sticking point for a lot of people.

Unknown Speaker 29:12 Yeah, yeah, I know it is for a lot of people. Um, you know, I've had I don't know about real arguments with anybody about it, but I've had discussions with different people about it, who say, Well, you know, how can you be a satanist and an atheist at the same time? Don't you worship Satan? And I in fact, I kind of had this conversation with my mother in law the other night who is a wonderful woman. She's very nice, very open. I'm always surprised at how open she is to hearing other things. You know, she was raised LDS we live here in Utah so of course she was raised LDS. But she's very open to learning different things and she's by no stretch of the imagination really practicing Mormon anymore. But, you know, I pulled up the Satanic Temple website and read through the seven tenets and went through the FAQ which is pretty fucking hilarious by the way and and explained a lot of of the philosophy behind an atheistic satanist view

Lucien Greaves 30:16 and what she say,

Unknown Speaker 30:18 Oh, well, that's all very interesting, I can see why you'd be excited to do the show

Unknown Speaker 30:28 that actually leads pretty well into probably one of my favorite questions I have for theists, which I'm curious to get your take on, which is how did you decide that God was the good one? Right, because clearly the quote holy books don't outline that very clearly.

Unknown Speaker 30:44 So well, obviously he didn't choose God as a good No,

Unknown Speaker 30:47 I know he. I know he doesn't, but I'm just saying. I'm just saying that is a question. Yeah. That sort of draws out the

Unknown Speaker 30:53 general how to how to theist Desai. God was a good one.

Lucien Greaves 30:58 Right? Yeah. Well, that is a good question. It does seem to show a certain proclivity towards tyrannical leaders, which I find disturbing. Me too. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 31:11 Well, yeah, and I mean, that's, that's one of that's one of the things that the Satanic Temple kind of sets its apart kind of sets itself apart from a lot of the others satanist organizations, right. I mean, Church of Satan is kind of turned into just a giant shit show.

Lucien Greaves 31:32 It's it's a massive contradictions, because ostensibly, they they believe in the same kind of anti authoritarian values we do. But at the same time, they put forward this notion that they are the one true and final word and the dogmatic protocol of, of the only thing that can be called Satanism and the in these very authoritarian Fiats put forward in that way, you're either with us or against us and that kind of thing. And there's, they've very much tried to micromanage people's belief on issues, and yet, lionize themselves for not taking a stand in such a way where they actually take any political action whatsoever. But you also see a lot of writings coming out of that camp of, you know, glorifying petty dictators from foreign lands and during history and that shirt and so, yeah, it's to me, I don't understand that at all. I don't see how that mixes at all with the satanic philosophy to take on that kind of.

Unknown Speaker 32:35 Yeah, I mean, I mean, to me, a lot of the things that I see coming out of the church of Satan lately are, it's like it's turned itself into fascistic, Satanism. You know, it's, it's, we also only ones who will be Satanists, and everybody else is false Satanists.

Lucien Greaves 32:55 Right. And I think the contradiction for them is kind of reconciled, honestly, in the way that Nazi ism has been satinised in you know, ever since World War Two, it considered the epitome of evil and that type, that type of rationale. It's always popular in the in the more sophomore satanist at camps to try to justify something that's that's depraved or, or the world sees as evil, whether there's any value in doing so or not.

Unknown Speaker 33:29 Yeah, well, you know, I hear things tossed at the Satanic Temple every now and then about, oh, it's just a bunch of pranksters sitting in their mom and dad's basement. And, and in my mind, that that is just absolutely flipped on its head when when looking at the a lot of the stuff coming out of the church of Satan. I mean, to me, when I when I look at the things that the Church of Satan does, that is, you know, some some angsty teen in his mom or grandma's basement that's upset and pissed off and is just wondering, you know, how they can really, really make mom and dad and everybody else really angry and disturbed. It's, they don't do anything but seem to fucking whine and rant. You know,

Lucien Greaves 34:12 I agree with you.

Unknown Speaker 34:16 Well, good. Um,

Unknown Speaker 34:20 that doesn't sound much different than many church groups, either, though.

Unknown Speaker 34:24 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, a lot of the church groups will just sit around and you know, it's a circle jerk or it's a whine about how they're being persecuted or how they love

Unknown Speaker 34:32 to be persecuted. I'm just not understood.

Lucien Greaves 34:37 Oh, well, you hear that even with what we're doing, you'll hear Christian groups with with far more power than we have, or at least resources, claiming that this is part of the persecution against them. I mean, we're the ones fighting the uphill battle. We're the ones fighting against policies they've already managed to put in place.

Unknown Speaker 34:57 Oh, yeah. Well, how big is your organization? Like how many people to actually have that work to bring forth these, uh, like the doing the coloring book and, and bringing forth these lawsuits against the state for for all these things.

Lucien Greaves 35:10 We let people sign up for a membership for free? Yeah, I'm sorry. And you know, the the Atlantic had a I had a problem with that scoffing about how easy it is to become a member. But honestly, wouldn't it be backward if we made it very difficult for people to affiliate religiously? Especially, you know, you consider how the polls are conducted around United States, they just simply ask people if they're affiliated with one religion or another. But honestly, you can't ask somebody to, to go through an initiation of types or, or pay a certain fee for religious affiliation, if you want to be taken seriously at all. But so, but that does rather inflate the numbers because you have no idea who just comes in and, you know, is dedicated to it or not, or didn't put a second thought into it, or didn't even know what they were doing. But nonetheless, we have some 10s of 1000s. I don't know, which is good in any case for you know, about three years of a new and controversy over religion.

Unknown Speaker 36:18 Well, what about for your, your actual team, like when you had to bring up these lawsuits? You know, finding the lawyers doing the legwork? Which doing, doing the media work? Is it just you alone, doing all this? Because if it's pretty amazing how big you've actually gotten, how much of an impact you've made around with, you know, being relatively small?

Lucien Greaves 36:38 Yeah, it's pretty much me and, and you, you met Malcolm at the American Atheist conference. He's not out in the media. But he and I really do the planning and organizing on the national level and reach out for the lawyers. And, of course, when in Missouri, when we first learned that this woman would be trying to get the abortion, we work day and night to get legal counsel, because we were we had to file on the day she went in the clinic and was denied the exemption waivers. So we had a very limited time to get the lawyers together. But, but he and I work all the time at these things. We were hoping to also secure a lawyer for Oklahoma that same week. But we didn't manage to do that. So really, a lot of our a lot of our work right now has been calling law offices and trying to get in contact with somebody who will actually represent us.

Unknown Speaker 37:37 So in Oklahoma, is that going to be for reproductive rights also? Or does it have something to do with the Decalogue and the Baphomet statue

Lucien Greaves 37:46 that's in relation to the bathroom at statue, the statue we want to put up next to the 10 commandments.

Unknown Speaker 37:53 So what's the latest with that? I mean, I know, I know that in October, there was a bipolar person who crashed their car, or maybe it was even a stolen car, I don't remember into the 10 commandments monument there in Oklahoma. And it was replaced miraculously. In January, I mean, again, three months later, it's already had an exact replica erected in its place. What's the latest with the with getting mathematician up there?

Lucien Greaves 38:23 Well, as for the bipolar fellow, did you read the letter he wrote justifying what he had done? I haven't read the letter. Oh, it's somewhere you got to look it up. It's classic. He was talking about how he had some kind of a notion in his head that the cars passing by contain some killer virus they were infected with the with the meat of Michael Jackson or something like he was great, but um, he got out and he also took a piss on the crumbled remains in the monument. Oh, wow. Yeah, he was blabbering some things about I think Obama being the Antichrist and, you know, all that.

Unknown Speaker 39:03 Well, I think, I think he claimed to be a Satanist also, right, or said that Satan told him to do it, or

Unknown Speaker 39:09 I think his mother said he was a Christian from the reports of it. Oh, yeah. It

Lucien Greaves 39:13 turned out he was a Christian. But yeah, I think at first he was saying that Satan made him do it. And some of the press was eager to latch on to the idea that he was a Satanist, but turned out to be not the case at all.

Unknown Speaker 39:26 Well, makes fun, really exciting headlines. Right?

Lucien Greaves 39:29 Right. But our monument is completed. It's still at the foundry. Were working out a spot to store it while we're also looking for a lawyer to take up the case. So we can now go ahead was suing Oklahoma for rejecting our application for its placement. They haven't replied they haven't formally rejected us, but we're taking their failure to reply to us as a de facto rejection of our proposal. So we will move to court.

Unknown Speaker 40:02 I guess I had I had assumed or had thought that a lawsuit had been filed, but it was just a the application to have the monument placed there that they haven't responded to yet.

Unknown Speaker 40:14 Dance Dance internet works perfect during a thunderstorm, but when the weather is perfectly fine, it's shit.

Unknown Speaker 40:22 It has something to do with that satanic

Unknown Speaker 40:23 connection. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 40:25 we've rebooted all the things I think Jesus is trying to keep us from communicating with you could be such an asshole that way. I think

Lucien Greaves 40:35 he got the ACLU recently, too.

Unknown Speaker 40:42 So we were talking about how long the Satanic Temple has been around. You said you're doing this as a full time gig now. And I when I at the convention, I talked to you a little bit because I had seen a post that you'd made that after the end of the year, you're not going to be doing any more speaking engagements or anything is that is that still the case?

Lucien Greaves 41:05 That you know, I'd really like to stop doing public speaking engagements, just because I'm not really sure I see the value in them. And, and some things you reach a saturation point, I think and once I've put out a book, you know, and, and do some of the things I wanted to do see some of these cases through, I would like to step back from any public scrutiny at all. You know, I'd like to step back from the audience and do my own thing after a time.

Unknown Speaker 41:34 Yeah, are you are you planning on still maintaining your role as a spokesperson for the Satanic Temple? And just not doing like the public speaking engagements? Or are you thinking about your you're gonna step away completely?

Lucien Greaves 41:47 Oh, no, I will still do, there's still much more for me to do until stepping out entirely or stepping back entirely, though I do plan on stepping out entirely at some point. That's not what I'm talking about for stepping away from public events. But that said, I do have to say when I was at American Atheists, Jamila Bey, the, the emcee of the event, came up to me afterwards, and she wanted my business card. And she said that the reason she wanted the business card was because she was helping to organize the reason rally coming up, and I thought, fuck turned down.

Unknown Speaker 42:30 Yeah, yeah, that would be a really tough one to turn down. But that's not I mean, you know, that's not until probably March or April of next year, which, then you'd have to, you'd have to either come out of retirement or yeah, maybe hold off the retirement until then, I don't know.

Unknown Speaker 42:46 Let me ask you this, then why, why do it? Why do what you're doing?

Lucien Greaves 42:49 Well, for, for what's being done, I really love what we're doing, I really love seeing these cases play out, I just really am not very well suited to, to, you know, even this minor celebrity or that kind of public scrutiny. And I don't it denigrates the movement in general, what we're doing to make it my own personal story, you know, to attach my biography to it. And that's why I've really resisted talking about those types of things with any journalists. And, you know, several have wanted to do profiles. And I wouldn't do that. CNN recently was asking to do an hour long documentary about the Satanic Temple. And those are the parameters I set before we could go forward talking about this possibility was that this would not be about me, it would not contain my background information, that type of thing. Nor would I work with any group that would actively seek to give the identities of people who prefer to use their pseudonyms working with the Satanic Temple. You know, people like to pretend there's something nefarious about the idea that we allow people to operate sued anonymously and anonymously. But I don't think so at all. I think the reasons are very self evident. And I think we shouldn't be apologetic for that at all. And should I come more from that anonymous school of thought, in any case, and earlier on the Satanic Temple, I kind of imagined would be structured almost like anonymous, where anybody could really kind of take on the name of the Satanic Temple to do what they were doing. And we'd all be these kind of anonymous characters using pseudonyms. But of course, it didn't quite work out that way at all and me being revealed as myself has a lot to do with that. Now I feel my own personal reputation is directly attached to anything done in the name of the Satanic Temple. So it's kind of changed the dynamic.

Unknown Speaker 44:51 Would you say that a lot of the media outlets seem to want to use the Satanic Temple, more as kind of like an illustration or a face to the war on Christianity.

Lucien Greaves 45:00 Well, it depends on who's writing. You know, when the when the press was first covering us, you had a lot of straightforward standard reporting, because people didn't really know what to make of it, you know. So you would get that kind of, they were just, they would just list a series of facts, that this was the event that took place. And I think everybody was waiting for the kind of opinion polls of the market to come in in the comments or whatever else before taking a stand one way or another. And the first, somewhat positive article about us came out during our fight for the monument in Oklahoma. I mean, there there was some support from, from different gay sites when it came to the pink mass. But that seemed generally to be taken by people who wanted to assume that everything we were doing was a joke. And in but they agreed with the gay rights aspect. But in mainstream press, there's one op ed came forward from a paper in Oklahoma where the guy wasn't even saying anything positive about us. But he was saying that, in the Church State separation debate, we had a point in requesting our monument we kind of illustrated a certain amount of hypocrisy, and this is what the theocrats deserved. And that, you know, you see a lot of that now, but that was kind of a novel piece at the time. And around that time, you started seeing people in the comments of articles becoming more bold about advocating our position and saying they actually agreed with us, and that they didn't only agree with the, with the idea of us having equal placement in the public square, but they agreed with our tenants and overall philosophy. And it wasn't long after that, that you saw some journalists embolden to actually endorse us on sites like salon or, you know, very giving us very positive treatment in any case, and in some of them, writing commentary openly endorsing us. So the conversion came rather fast, but you still see pushback, you know, it's very polarized. Of course, anytime we do anything, doesn't matter what it is. It's very polarized. But you can definitely see that the vitriol of that polarization recently with this case with the abortion exemption thing.

Unknown Speaker 47:23 Yeah. Well, and you had mentioned earlier that you were kind of surprised at how, how much the pink mass took off, that you were kind of surprised at the amount of media attention that had gotten and I guess, you know, I would say that that anytime somebody speaks out really publicly against the Westboro Baptist Church, of course, that's a good thing. But the fact that you happen to teabag the the gravestone of Fred Phelps, his mom, as a Satanist probably just, you know, launch that into the orbit.

Lucien Greaves 47:56 Well, right, probably, but my thinking at the time beforehand was that that might actually keep it out of the news that it had gotten too bizarre, for any, any standard coverage at all, that the story itself would make any mainstream outlet look like a mockery just for reporting it. So I thought we get some play in like heavy metal magazines, or, or, like bizarre magazine out of the UK and other internet sites that would make sure to get it back to the Westboro Baptist Church and piss them off. So I thought it would be kind of this underground sensation. I didn't really expect ABC News to run a video report as they did.

Unknown Speaker 48:40 Well, and I was I was kind of curious if you had any plans to visit Meridian anywhere in the future at all. I know that most of the charges had been dropped, right. They dropped the public indecency. And I think you I think initially you were you were charged with three different things. But as far as I could ascertain, on the web, there was just the one outstanding charge,

Lucien Greaves 49:05 right, the sheriff wanted to have been charged with all these things. And apparently he went into the court and the judge wouldn't sign off on it. But they did settle for desecration of a grave. And this was, this was after he had fallen under a significant mockery in the in the nationwide press. And I made some comments denigrating the sheriff and the price also expense literature. You know, very humorous, I thought, but they weren't going to be happy to see me in Meridian. But when the sheriff was backtracking and talking, I think he was talking to Huffington Post. He had got he had fallen under criticism for saying that he would, you would arrest me and I'm sure that was something he wasn't counting on your he was saying that he was going to take the Satanist off the streets. And he actually had people in a nationwide press saying that this was kind of a outrage against the First Amendment. they would even consider jailing me for this so called Crime of protest. And so then he was, I believe he's saying the Huffington Post set, what they settled on, the charge of desecration of a grave would only be up to a $500 fine and didn't entail any jail time. So, Malcolm and I were sitting with our lawyer. And we said, Well, if that's the case, let's go back to Meridian and fight the charge. You know, I was thinking, I'll wear the horns, we'll invite vice camera crew, and we'll we'll make a mockery of the entire proceedings. In everybody thought that was a good idea. But fortunately, my lawyer said, Well, let me make damn sure that they can't take you into custody, right. And what he found out was that they could throw me in the can for up to a year. And I thought, given that I was insulting the sheriff and the sheriff's department in the national press. If I were to go back to Meridian, and they had any chance at all throwing me in jail for a year that they would probably do just that they would

Unknown Speaker 51:07 exercise that that option ever so happily, yes.

Lucien Greaves 51:11 Yes, exactly. So I never I never went back. As far as I know, I'm still a wanted man.

Unknown Speaker 51:19 Shocks you'll have to avoid Mississippi. Well, one of the one of the quotes I saw vacation now. I think it's a one of the quotes that I saw from you was also from Vice. And it was an art there was an article about the pink mass and they had asked you something about if you know if you were worried about being arrested and then extradited to Mississippi, and the response you gave was, quote, I predict that if I were to be arrested and extradited to Mississippi, my very presence would raise unholy psychological health among the sheriff and his colleagues. Just as medieval demon panics gave rise to episodes in which repressed people took the opportunity to act out in mindless abandon exonerated from their own deeds by the idea of possession. I believe it's quite possible that I could find myself in a holding cell witnessing the the meridian police devolve into a sweaty, grunting, savage or V orgy of uncaged, homosexuality, all influenced by the idea that they were utterly powerless against my sexual conversion magic. Perhaps they're merely looking for such a scapegoat. Yeah. And and I was

Lucien Greaves 52:28 the kind of quote I had in mind when I thought of how thrilled the sheriff would be to actually throw me in that holding. So

Unknown Speaker 52:38 it just seems to me that so much of that would have gone over his head. That quote,

Lucien Greaves 52:43 yeah, you're right, probably all of it, but, but even people like him have a sense of when they're being mocked. Interestingly, you know, I've started writing a book, I haven't gotten very far in it, because I've been working on so many things, but I was writing about the pink mass. And while I was doing that, I was trying to look up more information, more background that I could possibly get. And I found that the shirt got fired from his post, very, very shortly after the pink mass happened, like a month within a month or two. Wow. Wow,

Unknown Speaker 53:20 did it did it say anywhere why he was fired?

Lucien Greaves 53:24 Well, the the sheriff's department gave a very bizarre kind of justification that he miss identified himself over radio call or something like that. So we actually did a Freedom of Information Act request from the sheriff's department for all documents. It's related to us on the pink mass, and they haven't come through on honoring that request yet. And we might actually contact a lawyer about it. But it might it might give up some interesting information about him being fired.

Unknown Speaker 53:57 That's That's pretty funny. Um, so you know, I've mentioned that the Satanic Temple and you are in the news, it seems every week with something new. Whether it's, you know, the the pink mass, the children's Big Book of satanic activities. The Oklahoma trying to get the Baphomet statue there,

Unknown Speaker 54:21 which is badass, by the way. Oh, yeah. We should give a shout out to the artist of that statue. Yeah, who

Unknown Speaker 54:26 was the one who designed the statue? It?

Lucien Greaves 54:29 Well, you know, I came up with a general drawing of what it should look like. But the artists really put it together. That was Mark Porter. A classically trained artist, sculptor artists from New York.

Unknown Speaker 54:45 That's very cool. So anyway, I was listening all these great things that you guys are doing what of all the things that you've been involved with, as far as the as far as the Satanic Temple goes so far. What What would you say you're most proud of? what's your what's your favorite thing? that you guys have done.

Lucien Greaves 55:01 I think we're really working on that right now I'm really proud of this abortion campaign. And when we put a lot of research and a lot of work into this, and I'm just really happy that something's being brought forward that is of such a tangible value. I think you really can't measure the cultural symbolic value of the bathmat statue either. Right, but the reproductive rights sets a very contentious battle and a very important one. And I feel like we've really asserted ourselves on the frontlines of that. And that's something I'm will be proud of for the rest of my life, I'm sure.

Unknown Speaker 55:35 Yeah, I think it's an awesome, awesome endeavor, for sure. You know, it's it's going to have some real ramifications and repercussions, you know, far down the line, as far as, as you said, clearly defining what these referral laws can and can't do.

Lucien Greaves 55:50 People want to ignore us and they want to, they want to denigrate us, and they want to marginalize us. And it's things like this, that'll show they just can't do that. One way or the other, they'll have to think seriously, we're going to be molding laws.

Unknown Speaker 56:04 Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So So now that we know what you're most proud of what what would you say you are least proud of her? Or do you have any regrets about anything that that that you've done, or anything that you wish you could go back and change?

Lucien Greaves 56:20 Not really, I can't really think of anything like that. I it was, it was a really severe adjustment for me though. I mean, I lost some, some friends, of course, when it came out that I, I was me, and that I was doing what I was doing. And some people were really mortified by that. Especially, I was working, you mentioned my work with the Satanic Panic earlier. And before doing the say, the Satanic Temple work, I was doing a lot of writing and research on the recovered memory controversy in the types of poor therapies that gave rise to claims of satanic ritual abuse in the 80s and 90s. In finding that this practice is still in place, for the most part, and that there's a certain fringe grouping within within the mental health field that actually feeds delusion to the mentally vulnerable. So it's fighting that for a while. And while I was doing that, it's kind of making a name for myself is one of the one of the few lone advocates for the position of the people who've been treated this way under therapy, and had fallen under the delusion of being abused by Satanists, or abducted by aliens because of this, these poor scientifically unsound and harmful regression therapy tactics. And so, you know, I had a certain market and a certain following from people who were kind of abused by these things, and a lot of them would come out of this bad therapy and latch on to religion, you know, of the mainstream type, which was part of the problem to begin with, actually, if you look at their case studies, but for them to see that I was coming out satanist was kind of a hard blow. And so a lot of people just didn't talk to me at all anymore. After that, and then I was getting all this attention, which I had already mentioned wasn't, I wasn't well suited for anyway. So I really

Unknown Speaker 58:19 heard about that. Yeah, yeah. You've said, you've said that you're not really well suited for it. Is that is that just a personal preference? Because I mean, you're doing an amazing job. I think you're incredibly eloquent, you write very well, you speak very well. Everything that I've ever seen you do is really, really good. So what do you mean that you that you think you're not very well suited for it?

Lucien Greaves 58:38 I just I'm not of a character where I really appreciate that kind of attention. You know, I don't know how to, I'm getting better and better. I said, I was still I been talking to John Waters. And a benefit to speaking to him is that he? He's been famous for a long time. So I was recently asking him if he ever had a problem with it, if he if he doesn't like it, if he ever wishes, he could still meet people on their own terms. And he was pretty abrupt about it. He just says that given the given the choice between being famous and not being famous, it's better to be famous.

Unknown Speaker 59:17 I guess I can see that for sure.

Unknown Speaker 59:20 I've uh, I'm just curious on more of a personal level, I mean, I'd like we I mean, you did lose some friends but you also gained a whole bunch to I just want to add that

Lucien Greaves 59:33 oh, yeah, that came a bit later though. It was it was for a while there that it felt like it was it was Malcolm and I against the entire rest of the world you know and right out right off the get go you do get people gravitating to, to you and what you're doing but sometimes those people can be just as horrifying as the opponents

Unknown Speaker 59:54 through AI Yeah, I didn't I didn't mean that in any way diminish your personal feelings. I just meant that you know, Do we support what you're doing? And, you know, there may be some personal losses but I was more I was curious just like on a personal level, you must you must be associated at least tangentially with bands like AC DC and Nine Inch Nails and tool and stuff like that. But I'm curious what your actual hobbies are what your what your interests are. Those are great bands by the way, in my opinion

Lucien Greaves 1:00:27 you know, I I do art. I've done music before some some small label in Chicago. I think it was put out my stuff on cassette, I guess because it's kind of ironic and in retro now. But they had done that before in the Satanic Temple activity either. So that, you know, but lately I've been working on this more than full time. Mm hmm. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:52 What kind of music was it?

Lucien Greaves 1:00:54 Noisy?

Unknown Speaker 1:00:57 Noisy death metal?

Lucien Greaves 1:00:59 Yeah, you know, the the blog, I do process.org. I do with a couple guys who've worked with skinny puppy. And there's an there's ogre side project. So I really like those guys. And then they're, they're very nice fellows. I don't know if you're familiar with that.

Unknown Speaker 1:01:15 Oh, yeah. Yeah. I was listening to skinny puppy back in the early 90s.

Lucien Greaves 1:01:21 Yeah, me too.

Unknown Speaker 1:01:22 Yeah. Well, I think we're about the same age. What what? How old are you now? If you don't mind me asking. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 1:01:26 let's throw that out there.

Unknown Speaker 1:01:30 I'm legal. That's all that's important. Well, these guys, I'm constantly reminded of how much older I am than these two. Whenever I asked a cultural you know, whenever I throw something out there that, you know, was a cultural reference for me back in the day and they will I just get blank fucking stares from these tires. They

Unknown Speaker 1:01:48 know what you're talking about.

Unknown Speaker 1:01:53 I'm kind of surprised that you knew what skinny Puppy was. That doesn't know what skinny puppy

Unknown Speaker 1:01:57 All right, and younger than I am. But no,

Unknown Speaker 1:01:59 I don't. Yeah. Well, yeah, I It's been a pleasure having you on the show tonight. Um, before I let you go, I want to let everybody know the satanic temples website is just www dot the Satanic Temple calm. If you don't know much about the Satanic Temple, you should definitely familiarize yourself with some of the things that they're doing. They have a, as I mentioned before, a very, very informative and and pretty funny FAQ section out on their website lists the seven tenets of the Satanic Temple. They're doing a lot of really great work. I donated earlier to the reproductive rights campaign that they're that they're currently trying to get some money for. And I think everybody else should do the same. You guys are doing some fantastic work, my friend.

Lucien Greaves 1:02:57 And I'm going to be a regular guest from here on, on your show. Excellent.

Unknown Speaker 1:03:02 No problem. Sounds great.

Unknown Speaker 1:03:06 I would I would like that very, very much.

Unknown Speaker 1:03:08 I want to know which part of you is regular.

Lucien Greaves 1:03:13 I'm never irregular. very steady diet.

Unknown Speaker 1:03:19 i i Last week, we had Brian fields on the show with us. And at the end of the show, I threw a teaser out that you were going to be on this week's show. And it was the little drop that I had to do there at the American Atheist convention. And, and, you know, I was telling these guys when, you know, I wanted to get a bunch of other people to try to give me drops while we were there. But it was always, you know, there was always so much going on. It was noisy. Our name is not exactly. It's not real. It's not real good

Unknown Speaker 1:03:51 English. Yeah, it's a little clumsy. And so I believe

Lucien Greaves 1:03:57 I, from what I was told by the photographer, the event, nobody had more pictures taken of them than me. So they don't have an excuse for not recording.

Unknown Speaker 1:04:07 I believe that's true. I mean, you you were kind of mobbed. I mean, you know, you'd contacted me before the before the convention, saying we should hang out sometime. And then, you know, we tried to we tried to get together a couple different times. And that was kind of hit and miss. And then you delivered your your presentation. And I think you were just mobbed from then on out after the you know, from that point forward. I don't think you had a second of time really to do much of anything but but, you know, take two or three steps before somebody would come up and want to want to talk to you and ask you a bunch of questions.

Lucien Greaves 1:04:41 That's true. There was even one point where I was going to go out to the snack machine outside my room and get a bottle of water or something and I thought it's not going to be a problem if I'm in my boxers looking like shit. But then I realized I was not I was not managing to get down a hall on any floor without Without people, people attacking me. So I need to make myself look decent. Just walk out to the snack machine it was off.

Unknown Speaker 1:05:09 Goddamn. That's a curse man. I feel for you. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:05:14 Well, you're welcome. Anytime. You know, it's been a it's been a real pleasure and appreciate you taking the time with us

Lucien Greaves 1:05:20 is they're checking me anytime you're you're interested in what we're doing or we have anything going on. Just remind me and I'll be happy to give you updates.

Unknown Speaker 1:05:27 Thanks very much.

Unknown Speaker 1:05:28 Is there anything else you want to plug right away while you're on right now? No.

Unknown Speaker 1:05:36 All right, Doug. Well, thank you so much again, for coming on the show. I'm sure we'll have you on again in the future. We will look forward to doing that. Absolutely. I know it's a little bit late there where you are your East Coast time, right?

Lucien Greaves 1:05:50 Yes, but it's only about 11.

Unknown Speaker 1:05:53 That's close to my bedtime. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:05:58 All right. Well, we appreciate it. We'll stay in touch. Thanks very much.

Lucien Greaves 1:06:02 Great. Thank you talk to you soon. All right. Thanks a lot. Bye. Bye. Okay, bye.

Unknown Speaker 1:06:08 Well, that was pretty awesome.

Unknown Speaker 1:06:09 It was awesome. What a great guy. Yeah. And so smart man. He just knows everything about everything. It seems like.

Unknown Speaker 1:06:16 Yeah. Oh, shit. You know, I should have asked him more about the Satanic Panic stuff. We'll have to have him on again.

Unknown Speaker 1:06:21 He does. He does that for every show. Yeah. glad. I'm glad we got into some of the stuff we did. Yeah, I think it was I think it was a little unique.

Unknown Speaker 1:06:29 Yeah. Well, I I was gonna, yeah, well, we'll have to have him on for another segment about the future. But I remember, you know, we live here in Utah. And I was born in a small town north of here called Brigham City. And chin I can remember when I was a kid and hearing relatives talk about the Satanists who would gather in the mountains on the side of the mountain and they'd have their their little ceremonies and rituals, and they were killing animals up there. Well, that's that

Unknown Speaker 1:07:01 whole Richard Ramirez ACDC. Weegee board Dungeons and Dragons. That whole that whole thing was all mixed up in that mess. Well, even

Unknown Speaker 1:07:09 that, the HBO had the documentaries on there, where it was a three or four predicament part documentary with the three kids that got put in jail. For what they said for murdering these other two boys and sodomizing him all that stuff that was like in Arkansas, or yeah, in there saying, well, they're Satanists. They're that they're the bad kids in the neighborhood. They're the ones who did it. And it went through their whole life. It started off the whole first part of documentary is literally them going through the court case, going through all that stuff. The second part is them in jail going we didn't do it. We just thought we're done. Like we knew we didn't do it. We're just trying to act fucking cool. Yeah, and all like, Satanists type, like all like dark and everything. Like we didn't do it, then they're trying to fight for their lives to get out of jail. Yeah. And the third one is them getting out of jail?

Unknown Speaker 1:07:53 Well, and you have you have, you know, therapists and other people who, who have been promoting all of this bad information for so long, and are still fucking doing it. And still, you know, people who, who put those kids away based on their, quote, unquote, expert testimony, as far as you know, satanic rituals, or things that go on there and

Unknown Speaker 1:08:16 Lucian touched on it a little bit, but the repressed memory therapy that still goes on, which is a huge part of, you know, helping young children or toddlers to believe they were abused or molested or whatever it is, or you know, that they're reincarnated or whatever other bullshit that we ever

Unknown Speaker 1:08:35 listened to any of those interviews, where they're where they're recovering these repressed memories, and they're hypnotizing these piano, man. Oh, it's fucking maddening. I mean, you can hear them leading the person to say exactly what they want them to say. And then you know, boom, you're, you're, you're out of your hypnosis. And this is what you told me these these are the repressed memories that you have and they they feed this line of bullshit back to these people and do real damage to these people who never had any issue any any issues like this. Yeah, you know, in fact, and then are fed this bullshit narrative later. And they cause real mental distress for these people.

Unknown Speaker 1:09:17 It's kind of I saw a house for sale recently. Badass house fucking thing was huge out and like Connecticut or something, but no one will buy the fucker because they say it's the most haunted place in the fucking world and it's dirt fucking shit up. I'm like, I'll buy it the house looks fucking awesome all all original wood those giant sweeping the house looks fucking beautiful. Yeah, like I'll fucking buy it and right now

Unknown Speaker 1:09:40 tie this back. This is all fucking religion. It is. There's no Satan without without the Christian God. Well, we're Muslim. Yeah, but I mean without Abraham. Well, so Satan is all is just as much a myth as God is.

Unknown Speaker 1:09:53 Oh, yeah. Well, my mom. My mom and stepdad bought a home here in Murray not too long ago. You know, they got this fucking fantastic screaming deal on this giant, beautiful home. Because the previous owner had had killed himself in the house. He'd hung himself. And he hanged himself. Yeah. And, you know, everybody, not everybody, but so many people didn't want to buy the home because someone had killed them. So clearly it's going to be haunted or it had evil spirits that made them do this. I'm making little 10 things with my fingers. But, you know, somebody's fucking superstitious apples are buying into this kind of thing that Oh, Wolf, and I can't get the house. And so my mom and stepdad got a screaming deal. And, you know, on the disclosure, they're like, Well, you know, we need to tell you up front that tante there was a tragedy here and

Unknown Speaker 1:10:51 and what are what what makes that so that they have to legally disclose that like, or because there's so many fucking superstitious knows what I mean is, Is it is it that the construction is within a certain proximity of a human death? Because look at the the fuck Earth. I mean, the only place you could buy something haunted for is Antarctica. I would like billions and billions of people. I

Unknown Speaker 1:11:15 would like to know if I buy a house if someone blew their brains out in the bedrooms that we want to replace the carpet. I won't go What's that funny stain?

Unknown Speaker 1:11:23 He's so surprised.

Unknown Speaker 1:11:24 So practical reasons. Yeah, sure. But I mean,

Unknown Speaker 1:11:27 but I think that's one of those things. It's it's you know, it's not as bad as how they have to disclose a meth house but

Unknown Speaker 1:11:32 Well, sure where that's actually damaging.

Unknown Speaker 1:11:35 Damaging Yang course. But I mean, I maybe it's some morbid curiosity factor of it. I make. I would, I would like to know what has happened in the house I have purchased and I have no clue. Yeah. But then again, when I was in high school, my buddy's cousin lived in a basement where someone had hung themselves and he had no fucking clue. But everyone else did, because they all didn't want to tell him.

Unknown Speaker 1:12:00 I like to fuck with people sometimes and say, you know, nobody may have killed your, you know, nobody may have killed themselves in the home that you live in now. But how many people who live there previously are dead now? Yeah, it was their fucking favorite house. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:12:14 Right. If you think about the Christian philosophy, I mean, how many dead children have been sprayed into the carpet in that house? Oh,

Unknown Speaker 1:12:24 right. Right. Why would they be spraying willy nilly and

Unknown Speaker 1:12:33 cannot control the flow.

Unknown Speaker 1:12:35 Here's a couple 100,000 dead babies. Here's a couple.

Unknown Speaker 1:12:37 Yeah. So willy nilly is not a phrase you'll hear just thrown about Willy willy nilly.

Unknown Speaker 1:12:45 Fucking another reminder that I'm older than you. Bastard.

Unknown Speaker 1:12:49 That's like a prospector with

Unknown Speaker 1:12:53 gold. Yeah, just look all over willy nilly every week. Usually,

Unknown Speaker 1:12:58 I'm bringing it back. Okay, I'm bringing it back. willy nilly is a great term. But I would say willy nilly and you kind of wave your hands in the air and shake your head like fucking willy nilly man.

Unknown Speaker 1:13:09 Yeah, but you don't just willy nilly? Like

Unknown Speaker 1:13:11 it just willy nilly Willy. Yeah. Not all over the carpet, man.

Unknown Speaker 1:13:15 It's not a term I use like every day or anything, but I like it. I think it's I think it's very descriptive. It's willy nilly. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:13:22 I would say at least in terms of a house though, at least that's something that only affects that religious person personally, like when you hear about cases like the the Orthodox Jews that refuse to fly with people in airplanes like yeah, next a woman? Yeah, that's when you're actually imposing your religion upon somebody else. I don't care what any person does that's to their own detriment. As far as it comes to their personal beliefs. It's just when you're trying to impose it on somebody

Unknown Speaker 1:13:48 else. Oh, yeah. If you if you want to retard your own advancement and knowledge and you know, prospects of getting a great deal on a house, I can go ahead and do it. You do whatever stupid shit you want. But also,

Unknown Speaker 1:14:00 would it be as effective if you were like, if you're a realtor, and you were trying to sell a place and you were like, Yeah, someone Someone killed themselves in the 90s and some people have reported seeing a ghost with gencos and T shirts. Never it's always from the late 1800s You know why fell down a well or something? It's

Unknown Speaker 1:14:22 2050 by 2050 We'll have a Jenko goes by then. It takes a while they got to realize they're dead and it takes a long time for them to get their powers the fucking hon Did you see the movie Ghost?

Unknown Speaker 1:14:36 You know you don't see anybody in their fucking the

Unknown Speaker 1:14:38 afterlife is that bureaucratic? Oh yeah, it takes that long to get your it

Unknown Speaker 1:14:41 took him a long time to figure how to fucking make a can move

Unknown Speaker 1:14:44 in their fucking neon neon colored 80s clothes with jeans and giant HAIR CLUB. Do you think XYZ is teaching people how to hug now? Even in the afterlife,

Unknown Speaker 1:14:54 you have to tap into your emotions to make things happen. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I suppose you have to believe,

Unknown Speaker 1:15:02 Spaceman. That's

Unknown Speaker 1:15:04 you got to take it on faith so I donated 500 Oh good for you oh well

Unknown Speaker 1:15:12 I think I run up the as much money I spent on gas and fucking Moab this week

Unknown Speaker 1:15:18 with the earth destroyer I

Unknown Speaker 1:15:19 driving off road the whole week I was getting eight to 10 miles a gallon Oh geez.

Unknown Speaker 1:15:24 I'm sure Yeah, so destroying the earth while destroying the earth.

Unknown Speaker 1:15:27 Yeah, I left well to teach some boy scout.

Unknown Speaker 1:15:32 million year old monuments.

Unknown Speaker 1:15:33 No, I felt bad cutting a tree down. Why did you kind of tree down because we built the zip line in the tree was in the way we had those trees and Mom Yeah, well not tree tree it's the Moab trees. Scrub Oh,

Unknown Speaker 1:15:46 well you know the ones that are like hardly ever around there at all and are very difficult to grow. So on down the

Unknown Speaker 1:15:53 200 year old takes takes on the quarter.

Unknown Speaker 1:15:56 Well doing my buddy tried the zip line the first time and he didn't bring out the break figured out quite yet. He almost took it right up that stump up the button. He almost took it right. Like I got a video of it. It's on Facebook. Yeah, not yet. Yeah, it's on there.

Unknown Speaker 1:16:10 He almost took it the stump. Right. It was bad.

Unknown Speaker 1:16:14 That makes you come out of prison homosexual.

Unknown Speaker 1:16:16 Do we have at least one news article to hit for the night? Because we still got time left?

Unknown Speaker 1:16:20 Yeah, yeah, we can actually, it's depressing news. I mean, we we've got yet another blogger in Bangladesh who has been hacked to death and other atheist blogger in Bangladesh, these people man, you would think so I mean, guys running around with fucking machetes and stuff in broad daylight.

Unknown Speaker 1:16:43 But it's it's not it's, it's almost allowed. And if that's the right white term, like, right, passively it is. It's yeah, it's not looked down upon. I mean, Bangladesh is still a very religious place. It's a lot of people I know.

Unknown Speaker 1:17:02 I like go most online with the abortion doctor or with the

Unknown Speaker 1:17:07 people who kill

Unknown Speaker 1:17:10 people kill atheists. It's almost like oh, well, they kind of brought it on themselves. What kind of backward mentality? Yeah, well, what kind of sick

Unknown Speaker 1:17:17 and twisted backward fuck do you have to be to to even implicitly endorse this right? To just look the other way as this kind of shit has happened? Horrible. To see a human being hacked to death? And say, Oh, well, you know, he kind of deserved. It's a guy

Unknown Speaker 1:17:34 that's been not just hacked to death, but targeted for his views and hacked to death.

Unknown Speaker 1:17:38 Yeah, because he doesn't share in your same fuckin delusions.

Unknown Speaker 1:17:42 Now you can take a look at Nigeria and see that happening all the time.

Unknown Speaker 1:17:45 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it happens all over the place. But you would think somewhere that has the technology available to have the internet? Yeah. This type of thing wouldn't happen nearly as

Unknown Speaker 1:17:59 well. It's kind of interesting, though. If you think, you know, around the world. You got Middle East, North Africa, East Africa, Bangladesh, Myanmar, Indonesia, Chechnya, Serbia,

Unknown Speaker 1:18:14 these are all countries. Yes. These are all countries where

Unknown Speaker 1:18:17 there are problems.

Unknown Speaker 1:18:19 Right. And Russia is moving strongly that way.

Unknown Speaker 1:18:21 Okay, but I'm just saying they are they're, they're regressing. Oh, what I'm saying is now removed Islam from the earth. And all of a sudden, it's fairly peaceful. All those countries I just named have problems because of Islam. Comparatively speaking. I mean, yeah, I mean, I'm not saying completely I mean, yes, Russia and you know, I mean, but there's also the the Charlie Hebdo stuff and yeah, the Danish cartoons and all that

Unknown Speaker 1:18:44 well, and there's also there's also still I mean, to this day, a lot of a lot of shit going on in the name of Christianity. I mean, when you know in and well still in third world countries, but it's, you know, the Christian narrative as fed to people from people like Scott fucking lively. You know, telling telling these people in third world countries that gay people, right, like to eat feces and our you know, yeah, and our and our evil people, that you see them go, oh, geez, well, we should go out and kill all of them then. Well, it's

Unknown Speaker 1:19:21 it's a really, it's a religious violence cycle.

Unknown Speaker 1:19:25 Yeah, I mean, yeah, you're right. I mean, because Islam is fine. We should just focus on Fuck

Unknown Speaker 1:19:29 no, it's not to the to Islam clearly has has more people more riled up and more dangerous, and inflicting more damage on people,

Unknown Speaker 1:19:41 especially at this point in time.

Unknown Speaker 1:19:42 I think we can talk about Islamic nations, though, not that I'm necessarily trying to defend Muslims. But saying if you look at those that are a lot more impoverished type areas that are also practicing this, practicing this religion and commend these types of

Unknown Speaker 1:19:55 murders. So I would say that's consistent for all religions, because it is but I'm saying

Unknown Speaker 1:19:59 Like even in the south, I don't think they're the same level of poverty as you would see on some of these third world countries. So I think when you feel like you have so Latin America is Yeah, Latin America definitely is

Unknown Speaker 1:20:10 because because who's the easiest to prey on? Right? The weekend?

Unknown Speaker 1:20:15 But you also have you also have that like in Saudi, you know, there's that mean, that's one of the probably the most strict Islamic countries in the world, and there's a shit ton of money in that country.

Unknown Speaker 1:20:25 But it's concentrated somewhere it is. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:20:28 And that people that have no Saudis, no national Saudis work. All the people that are in that country that are doing the work are low level poor people brought in from other countries to do the work for them.

Unknown Speaker 1:20:41 Almost like guitar with the slave state.

Unknown Speaker 1:20:43 Oh, yeah, it Yeah, it is. It is. It's a slave state. They're there. They're not actually the citizens of that state. They have no say in what goes on in the state, but they're forced to fucking work for trillionaires driving their fucking bodies into the fucking Solid Gold Digger. Yeah. And they'll take it off a sand dune, like, Uh huh. Just let the $2 million cars.

Unknown Speaker 1:21:01 A lot of those states that have you come to their country and take your passport and you're typically like an indentured servant. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:21:08 Yeah. Well, and yeah, I mean, you see the you see these countries where, like you said, you know, a lot of the time, it's impoverished nations. But but a lot of the time, it's not either, it's not, you know, you can look at the like, the 911. Terrorist attacks, right? Those guys weren't? No weren't desert farmers or fucking goat herders? I mean, we're talking about doctors, engineers, scientists, people who should know fucking better, but have had their religious beliefs so ingrained that it overrides any level of skepticism or rational thought that they otherwise would have about these types of Act.

Unknown Speaker 1:21:47 But I would say those, those attacks are more on the line of ideology, whereas these are people just attacking people near them, like reaching out attacking the person nearest you, that seems awkward, different. Same thing that Christianity does a lot where they always want to ostracize the person that seems different than the rest of the group.

Unknown Speaker 1:22:03 I don't know. Well, this is ideologically driven,

Unknown Speaker 1:22:06 I think, yeah. I think ideology plays a part in Bangladesh. But I think also I think poverty is a strong Yeah, it's almost like that person's creating the situation that I'm in same way Christians feel like they're being, you know, attacked by the gay community, the LGBT community.

Unknown Speaker 1:22:23 But what the the people that were involved with the 911 attacks, they were in this country for 15 to 20 years, 10 years. Each of them were different. I mean, George

Unknown Speaker 1:22:32 Bush, yes.

Unknown Speaker 1:22:36 Basically, assimilated into the American job.

Unknown Speaker 1:22:39 I don't know if Texas is part of this country.

Unknown Speaker 1:22:42 But I thought, like they went through flight school in Florida and stuff, and they were they basically assimilated into the American culture to the point where if they would have chosen in the back of mind going, these people aren't that bad. They definitely don't want to do this similar to the boss but but they have that ingredient that their religious thing in the grain in their mind that they're so dedicated to it, that even though they see American culture and see the way it is, they still have that need to want to basically kill the person they're sitting next to every fucking day for 20 years. I

Unknown Speaker 1:23:14 think that's the problem with with eating GMO all the time.

Unknown Speaker 1:23:17 It is I think that's an example of how religion rots your brain, like religion into a young person's life early gets so deep into you that you go against your own common sense. Yeah, your own almost your own. Well, that

Unknown Speaker 1:23:30 that is your common sense. Yeah. And if you know if it's that early, if you

Unknown Speaker 1:23:33 can sit there and look at a person every single day, this person brings you snacks. So you talk with this person, you get to know them. And all you're thinking in your head is I want to kill this person, I want to kill this person. It'd be nice to their face, but I want to kill these people.

Unknown Speaker 1:23:45 That's not that big of a stretch, when you consider how many grown adults still believe in Noah's Ark. Well,

Unknown Speaker 1:23:51 even then, I mean, it's not necessarily that they view everybody around them and think, you know, you're evil, I want to kill you. It's it's not just, it's not just that in. And in fact, I think a lot of the times, it's not even that. It's that they have this view that they're doing God's work, and they'll be rewarded for it ultimately, on the other side,

Unknown Speaker 1:24:12 right? Almost like a sociopathic type. Yeah, it's,

Unknown Speaker 1:24:15 I mean, it's not even like going about a no hatred, right? It's, I mean, they could they could think you're a good person, whatever. But it doesn't matter because their religious ideology says that they will be rewarded, because they're doing God's work. This is what God has commanded. They have to follow that it doesn't matter that they even may think you're a good person and not worthy of death. There God has commanded it, therefore they have to do, but it's not that they sit around. It's not that they sit around thinking, Oh, well, everybody around me is evil and worthy of death. Most of the time, I would say that's not even

Unknown Speaker 1:24:44 I wouldn't say most of the time, but I think in the Boston case, it definitely seemed like they had some pent up aggression towards society in general.

Unknown Speaker 1:24:51 No, I would put a lot of that down to teenage angst.

Unknown Speaker 1:24:54 I would agree with that. I think that a lot of people go through transformation that sense but I'm saying for them being at all Is America goddamned

Unknown Speaker 1:25:00 hormones? Man, it makes people fucking

Unknown Speaker 1:25:03 at that young age being depression is a snake. It's almost a mix of religious and anarchists style of a basically outburst to an extreme

Unknown Speaker 1:25:13 lack of patience wanting to change things now.

Unknown Speaker 1:25:16 One I think, also the the cognitive ability is one of the last things to develop in the brain. And a lot of the teenage issues are because that's not fully developed, as far as I understand it. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:25:28 Well, as as I, if I recall correctly, most people don't exhibit any any real signs of schizophrenia until they're 20 minutes. Yeah, exactly. So I could still be well, and that's because that's when

Unknown Speaker 1:25:43 our choose your, from Wisconsin

Unknown Speaker 1:25:47 from skits, counters, Apostle, I'm

Unknown Speaker 1:25:49 glad you're sitting on that side of the table. But I mean, that's, that's when your brain goes through its final stages of development, you know, I mean, not that you're not going to learn anything else or anything. But it's, that's that's when physical develop, yeah, that's when it stops, it's physical.

Unknown Speaker 1:26:06 The neuro plasticity of your brain becomes, the less we died, I came or if I talk about this last time, I was on the show or not because I missed a week. I remember talking with someone, but the guy on the bike, the backwards bike, I talked about that two weeks. Backwards bike. Yes, I talk about that two weeks ago. I don't remember this really interesting thing is like science thing has to do with neuroplasticity, like we're talking right now. Yeah, it's this guy had a guy he's a, he's a scientist, he had his engineer, buddy bill, my backwards bike. So the way the backwards Bike Works, he took the handlebars, moved him back and put a gear on the handlebars themselves, and attach to the actual fork on the tire. So when you go to turn right, the tire actually moves left, okay, you got to move left to direct turns, right. So backwards is a backwards bike. He's thinking it's a bike.

Unknown Speaker 1:26:53 I've ridden a bicycle since I was a kid. I'm thinking he's riding the bike around, but I know the steering is the steering

Unknown Speaker 1:26:58 is opposite. So when he goes to ride it, he pedals forward and instantly, within one foot he's on he was on the ground, he could not do it, he could not run the bike. It's this guy made, said I'm gonna, I'm gonna figure this out. I'm gonna do it took me eight months to figure out how to ride the backwards bike. And he thought, I'm gonna do an experiment. My five year old child, he's been riding his normal bike for about a year. Let's see if he can ride the backwards bike. His kid learned in one week how to ride a backwards bike. Then he went over to France or Europe someplace in, he's like, Well, there's a normal bike.

Unknown Speaker 1:27:30 Well, I'm really the kid is a genius. And the dad is just stupid.

Unknown Speaker 1:27:34 This has to do with neuroplasticity here. He got enrolled like he couldn't do it. He had trained his brain to ride a backwards bike and he could not ride a normal bike. So we went back to his kid, his kid had no problem flicking back and forth to an unknown, a normal bike, and a backwards bike because his brain could was so still learning. So we're taking information and keeping on information. So yeah, it's those early development years. Yeah, where his brain once it learned one, it looked like you were juggling balls. I was juggling testing. Once he learned one, he forgot the other. Yeah. And then one, he had to go relearn the other. He forgot the other were his kids. His brain was still malleable. He could learn both and retain both at the same time. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 1:28:16 well, which is why I think that you know, why they want children in religion early. It's why they want them isolated. It's because when it comes time for important questions in your life, you need to refer to religion. Yeah, that needs to be your first thought. What would Jesus do? What does the Bible tell me to do? Not what is my mind telling me to do? It's like training you how to think.

Unknown Speaker 1:28:34 Yeah, Tracy and I were talking last week about because it was fairly recently it was fast and testimony weekend for the LDS church, right. And we were, we were relating different memories that we had of going to church and stuff. And neither of us ever got up at fast and testimony meeting to all to bear our testimony throughout growing up in the LDS church, and, you know, we both we both agreed and remembered seeing, you know, tiny, tiny little kids, though, yeah. Who would have a hard time even getting up the steps to the podium, and then standing there and and oftentimes having to use a booster to even reach the microphone. And baring their testimony that they know, the churches for

Unknown Speaker 1:29:22 90% of the time the parents are whispering in their ear. Exactly, exactly.

Unknown Speaker 1:29:25 Yes. Yeah. And and, you know, they're, they're up there. They used to bother me, even when I sort of believe Oh, yeah, they're up there, you know, burying their testimony that they know that the church is true. And this is all just them repeating verbatim what their parents have told them and most of the time, it's, I love my mom, my dad,

Unknown Speaker 1:29:43 I know Joseph Smith.

Unknown Speaker 1:29:47 I know Joseph Smith was a prophet. I know the church is true, and it's just being fucking force fed to them as they're standing up there. It's nothing that they actually fucking know. Or that they believe they don't even know they don't even have a call Knowing versus believe and all that and they're up there being fucking force fed this shit. And it's shameful.

Unknown Speaker 1:30:05 All the people in the congregation are turning to each other out of the mouths of babes.

Unknown Speaker 1:30:08 Yeah, you know, oh, it's so true. Isn't that adorable?

Unknown Speaker 1:30:12 But if you repeat a lie enough times a lie becomes a truth.

Unknown Speaker 1:30:15 I remember going to, like, my daughter was singing there something Church activity and looking over to my youngest to and repeating verbatim what the kid was gonna say before they even said it. Like, I like to bear my test. And

Unknown Speaker 1:30:28 I know the church, my mom and dad.

Unknown Speaker 1:30:31 Yeah, I feel some hope that the youngest two are picking up on the things that I try to teach them. I don't ever come out and try to bash it directly. Yeah, tell him mostly teach him think for yourself.

Unknown Speaker 1:30:42 I mean, before I was even before I was baptized, I mean, I would see kids, you know, just a little bit younger than me going up there. And I even at that age, I was fucking disgusted. That, you know, sometimes I'd be upset with the kids and looking back, it's like, well, I can't really be upset with him. They didn't know any better. And, and in retrospect, I'm fucking disgusted at the parents who would who would put their kids up to doing this kind

Unknown Speaker 1:31:07 of to be honest, they don't know any better, either.

Unknown Speaker 1:31:09 That's what I'm saying. And that's one of those things where I kind of tried to have a little bit more patience, because it's like,

Unknown Speaker 1:31:15 Oh, I'm not saying, Be patient. I'm not saying that. They're adults. Um, but I don't know any better.

Unknown Speaker 1:31:19 They're adults, but they don't know what they don't know. And that's what I try to get when I talk to adults. I'm like, you don't know what this situation is. I play a volleyball lot with these Mormon guys last week. One of them was trying to talk to me about oh, what do you think about what's going on in Baltimore? Don't you think it's crazy? The typical, they're burning down their own

Unknown Speaker 1:31:39 crazy black people are destroying their own city?

Unknown Speaker 1:31:41 I'm like, well, first of all, if you look at it in context, I mean, it's not like this one thing. I've already given my burn down the city. I'm not talking about the police whatsoever. All I'm saying is it's like, you know, they want to look at things in isolated events, but don't want to look at the systematic things that lead towards these types of riots happening, or dissension amongst people.

Unknown Speaker 1:32:02 And they also want to ignore the fact that the riots got shit done. The riots, the riots got national attention it brought it brought the city to a standstill it in it gave voice to so many people who had been oppressed and repressed for so long. And and led to real action. I mean, there were six officers charged with crimes in the data this guy,

Unknown Speaker 1:32:27 and even if he I mean, even outside of that, it's like when they're talking to me about these things. I mean, these are people that for the most part have never even left this date. Probably still live within 10 miles where they were born. Like you have no idea what the world is outside of Utah. You're looking at everything from your particular dog. Oh, yes,

Unknown Speaker 1:32:44 I do. I've been to Disneyland.

Unknown Speaker 1:32:49 Right. Yeah, if you go for a weekend somewhere doesn't necessarily mean that you're the most worldly.

Unknown Speaker 1:32:56 What's the what's the

Unknown Speaker 1:32:58 like, they didn't have any killings at my resort.

Unknown Speaker 1:33:01 I'm, I'm I'm having in my head. I'm having this weird mashup of like NWA lyrics and Disneyland and thinking, you know, I didn't seem to the top of what the fuck Magic Mountain y'all because I've been to the mountain.

Unknown Speaker 1:33:20 I'm just saying, I think a lot of times when it comes to especially, it seems like it especially for religious people, but you grew up in a community even like we're talking with Lucien earlier. It's like, a lot of people don't understand what he's actually fighting for. I'm like, if this was a country, 50% Muslim 50% Christian, they would be raising all kinds of hell. If they wanted to have a Muslim prayer in your school you take a look at New York when they wanted to do their teaching the Pledge of Allegiance in different languages for language month, and everybody raised high hell as soon as they did it and freakin Islamic.

Unknown Speaker 1:33:54 Or I even saw where the one school had a voluntary burqa week where women could wear the headdress that had you know, the scarf, and everything is it was optional. People were freaking like, Oh, you're posting like Muslims. Like no, it's fucking optional. You live in a school with a large Muslim population, no

Unknown Speaker 1:34:15 problem just to the children up like Indians or Hawaiian? Yeah, it comes to that burqa.

Unknown Speaker 1:34:19 FOC akin to you bringing Islam to America's America. We were American flags on our heads. We will wear American flag for underwear for shirts and pants. But we will not be wearing burkas on our kids.

Unknown Speaker 1:34:33 I'm so glad you brought up the American flag. Did you guys see where? I can't remember her name that stopped the people that were protesting burning the American flag. The veteran? Yeah, the veteran that came up he's talking about how there. You will not remember how that desecrating the flag she had posed in Playboy with the flag draped on her ass button naked down

Unknown Speaker 1:34:52 on the ground and seems to fucking ignore the fact that sure you may have you may have quote unquote, fought for the freedoms of these people. to do whatever but part of that is that you fought for them to be able to do that you fought for them to aim to be able to have the right to step all over the flag to burn it to piss on to shit on this do whatever the fuck they want as part of their free expression. No,

Unknown Speaker 1:35:15 no, no no no right Well, Ryan fought for them to be able to treat the flag the way that he feels it should be

Unknown Speaker 1:35:22 I mean, I semi agree with them like as as a veteran as someone who's thought I guess

Unknown Speaker 1:35:29 it was fought. I guess

Unknown Speaker 1:35:31 I've been there. I've been to Afghanistan Iraq.

Unknown Speaker 1:35:34 Graduations don't

Unknown Speaker 1:35:36 kill anyone. Don't downplay it, but I never I mean it that is there right? There is no law saying you cannot burn an American flag there is no law saying you cannot. Or we're

Unknown Speaker 1:35:46 gonna go a different way with that. And I was gonna get myself in trouble.

Unknown Speaker 1:35:52 I saw you look at me like oh fuck is my bad.

Unknown Speaker 1:35:56 No law that you cannot have that flag draped over your wrist.

Unknown Speaker 1:36:00 Personally, I think it's a little bit a little disgraceful to burn the flag and be stomping all over and stuff. That's my personal opinion. I personally would have no fucking problem burning a Bible. There's tons of people that when we fucking lynched for burning a fucking Bible, so

Unknown Speaker 1:36:14 what are your problems with with burning the flag or stepping on or whatever? What what logical reasons or arguments for for it? Do you have or do you have it?

Unknown Speaker 1:36:22 I mean, it. It's just a symbol. Yeah, it's a symbol of our just like, I would be fucking pissed up shot of American Eagle. Well, that's a that's a that's a little.

Unknown Speaker 1:36:33 It's a little. It's also it's also a living thing. Yeah, it's,

Unknown Speaker 1:36:37 but I mean,

Unknown Speaker 1:36:39 it still represents symbolism and its symbol. commercialism. Now it does. But

Unknown Speaker 1:36:43 at the same point, shoot Santa. Ah, I don't buy on Christmas. By saying your

Unknown Speaker 1:36:50 honor. Your honor. The podcast guy clearly said it was okay to shoot.

Unknown Speaker 1:36:55 Yes, I did. But by saying that, you know, it is a symbol, the real Santa. But I don't have the same sentiment that the people going after them are saying that you have to be so into this country to be like, Well, if you don't fucking like you get out. It's like, no, if you see a problem with the country, bring it up. Yeah, nothing is perfect. And this country is far from fucking perfect.

Unknown Speaker 1:37:17 I'm personally kind of against the burning of anything, a bible of flags. I think it really just symbology

Unknown Speaker 1:37:24 is unbelievable. Which is why I don't give a shit.

Unknown Speaker 1:37:27 I'm saying I'm against it personally, for myself, I don't care what anyone else does themselves. I think you can get further trying to be open trying to have a conversation open up. Some people Yes, not gonna come

Unknown Speaker 1:37:39 back. But I would, I would I would point to I would point to the riots in Baltimore and say, this type of stuff is what gets attention and drives the narrative, right? It opens discussion, it opens dialogue, even if it's even if it's negative initially, it's what opens dialogue and gets people talking about you. So if I want to burn the flag, if I want to, you know, if I want to wipe my ass with it in public, it shouldn't fucking matter. It's a symbol, it's, it's something to show my personal feelings about it. And I, you know, I don't understand why anybody would would have any problem with it. Just as I don't understand why anybody would have a problem with a sound that I make with my mouth. If I want to say, Chick fil A shit, fuck Pittcon bitch. It doesn't matter. It's a sound. It's a symbol, it's a thing. It's not. It's not part of you, I'm not harming you, or anybody else by doing this.

Unknown Speaker 1:38:30 How does it make you feel to know that I agree with you. Now,

Unknown Speaker 1:38:33 on this point. I must be that slightly differently, though, because those people are angry with the municipality or particular government. They're not addressing their issues by raising that you're bringing national attention and pressure actually down onto those municipalities. And I would

Unknown Speaker 1:38:47 have, I would have burned a swastika flag in 30s, Germany, and I would have been right.

Unknown Speaker 1:38:53 Yeah, I don't even know if I would have done that, though. Me personally, that's what I'm saying. I'm saying I don't think that you really changed. Well, she's by burning what I'm saying.

Unknown Speaker 1:38:59 What I'm saying is yes, you're right. It's symbology.

Unknown Speaker 1:39:03 And you're not actually changing anything by doing it. But

Unknown Speaker 1:39:07 it's a display of disgust or disagreement with what that represent. I'm

Unknown Speaker 1:39:11 not going to be mad at you guys for doing it. So don't get me confused. There. I'm saying me personally, I wouldn't. Yeah, I'm the person burning the flag. I cared less about them. I thought the woman should be arrested for interrupting them. Or she was like, their personal property. But I'm not against the burning it. I'm just saying I'm trying to be. I guess I'm trying to come from an angle of where I want to communicate. I want to bring people in

Unknown Speaker 1:39:34 Well, I mean, a lot of the time it that's what starts the communication. That's what starts the dial.

Unknown Speaker 1:39:39 Yeah. But it starts it off at a hard place that sometimes, but it still gets it started and

Unknown Speaker 1:39:44 cases where otherwise it wouldn't. And a lot of times it doesn't get to the burning of something until it's already at a hard place.

Unknown Speaker 1:39:50 Yeah, for some people. It doesn't just start there. I'm just saying like, if I'm having a problem with

Unknown Speaker 1:39:54 those people. I mean, I yeah, they're already they're willing to talk. I mean,

Unknown Speaker 1:40:00 But sometimes that's how a person might view a person who wants to burn something. But I think it takes extreme action sometimes. Yeah, sometimes it honestly does. But I'm just saying if it's no right

Unknown Speaker 1:40:09 and taking the middle ground suddenly.

Unknown Speaker 1:40:13 No, you can have a conversation with somebody, you start there. They do almost be like going over to your neighbor doing something to shock them, and then trying to start the conversation from there. Yeah, for some people. That's right. I don't know what the flag burning was all about. It's probably obviously discussed with the government, which I can understand and respect. But there's ways that you can do it without starting off on that polarizing effect. Giving fuel to the Fox News's will shatter

Unknown Speaker 1:40:38 there are sure there are you mean, and there are ways that you can protest involved or without rioting, but it's, you know, it's it's everything that leads up to that and then what do you do? beyond what you've already done for, you know, years and decades and centuries? Oh, you have for you just fucking have enough.

Unknown Speaker 1:40:58 You absolutely. Could I think you probably could have started with boycotts. I think the people writing weren't necessarily the people that are actually concerned about correcting the problem. Yeah, a lot of younger people a lot of anger and angst. And that's something that changes with age. Yeah, so I'm saying you can the riots mellowed

Unknown Speaker 1:41:12 quite a bit in my in my,

Unknown Speaker 1:41:13 I'm not mad at my senior years. I'm not mad at people for writing.

Unknown Speaker 1:41:18 You're still young.

Unknown Speaker 1:41:21 I'm not mad at people for writing. I'm not gonna call them bugs. But I'm saying that you could probably still address that issue without the right the right happened. Can't take that back. So

Unknown Speaker 1:41:29 I'm not. I'm so hesitant to butt started on this.

Unknown Speaker 1:41:32 But here's my disagree. Here's my analogy necessary.

Unknown Speaker 1:41:37 I think it's still necessary. And I think even with the riots, the the the the actually the right result won't be accomplished.

Unknown Speaker 1:41:45 I think if people could get away from their need to capitalize and consume, that boycotts could strongly affect this country, they still do, even when it comes to that's why in Canada right now, they're trying to ban Israeli talks of boycotts. They're trying to consider those hate crimes in Canada right now they're looking to pass a law because boycotts would be a hate to boycott Israeli groups because of their treatment of the Palestinians. Well, that is that's, that's a lot you can look it up on it right now. The same around the same time they say we support free speech and Charlie Hebdo.

Unknown Speaker 1:42:20 That is Canada though. They had to they had to rerelease Grand Theft Auto was taken, we're

Unknown Speaker 1:42:25 really really sorry that people are boycotting your business. Hey, we're like we're gonna get on that right away. We're going why they called

Unknown Speaker 1:42:32 the Quakers and the Canadian Quakers a hate group.

Unknown Speaker 1:42:37 How do they call Quakers a hate group quicker because they

Unknown Speaker 1:42:39 want to boycott. They want to boycott Israel because of the treatment of Palestinian Quakers

Unknown Speaker 1:42:44 don't really consume anything though. Do they? Like what would they make?

Unknown Speaker 1:42:48 Oatmeal? Maybe

Unknown Speaker 1:42:50 less ovens anymore?

Unknown Speaker 1:42:54 I think I think when it comes to protesting and try to get a message across the guy with the soft voices, he's gonna do it. Yeah. Got it yells enough voice I'm gonna give more.

Unknown Speaker 1:43:02 I definitely agree with that. But I think it's money. Everybody. I mean, when it came to apartheid in South Africa,

Unknown Speaker 1:43:08 but but the other thing we got to look at what like when we're bringing up Baltimore, is that for the total of what 15 days they're protesting, there was seven hours of pure chaos. And that's what made the news. And that's was it things moving? But was it that seven hours of pure chaos that made them make the decision? Or was it the 15 days of people standing the streets chanting in being together and holding arms? It

Unknown Speaker 1:43:33 probably was the 15 days better, but I'm saying is.

Unknown Speaker 1:43:36 When did the news took? I don't know.

Unknown Speaker 1:43:38 When did anybody Oh,

Unknown Speaker 1:43:40 seven if I had to wager a bet it would be the seven hours. But I don't know for sure.

Unknown Speaker 1:43:45 That's what got the most press? Yes. nationally. Yeah. But 15 days got the most press locally there. I guarantee it. Well, because it went locally, man.

Unknown Speaker 1:43:56 I don't know. The other thing that I would say

Unknown Speaker 1:43:58 I don't know for sure. But I would I would be

Unknown Speaker 1:44:01 I'd be willing to bet that locally, the more the impact for them. I would be very surprised together but community for 15 days and

Unknown Speaker 1:44:09 third time and you have hit US history. A peaceful protest actually did something that would be I think

Unknown Speaker 1:44:15 there always has to be some kind of a balance. I'm just saying I think that you can affect people a lot with the pay book. Person course,

Unknown Speaker 1:44:21 of course. But the problem is the people who are generally in need of the most help don't have the paper.

Unknown Speaker 1:44:26 I know. Well, that's I'm saying so

Unknown Speaker 1:44:29 well in it and it depends and then I'm not

Unknown Speaker 1:44:32 the money. I'm saying when you don't spend your money when you're not in public transit. When you look look at it. Look at like, but it was done.

Unknown Speaker 1:44:40 And it depends on the situation when I mean look at Cuba, how long it sanctions against Cuba going on. Right and there's no way to what end? Yeah, other than other than causing suffering for Cuba is popular. Yeah. But Cuba. I mean, it didn't result in any it didn't result in any change within Cuba. Really. It no not at all other than, you know, keeping them in the fucking 50s For the last 40 years, I

Unknown Speaker 1:45:03 still had agreements with other countries. I'm just saying.

Unknown Speaker 1:45:05 Yeah, okay, so let's look at Chick fil A. So let's say all of the inner city, urban kids in all of these made let's not even say Baltimore and all these major cities. Let's say they now boycott and they're not going to spend their 15 cents a week at Walmart. What the fuck does that do? It will nothing something bullshit. You will know if if all the suburban white mothers stopped shopping at Walmart around the country that would do some I think in a way urban kids this is not I'm not being racist. I'm just saying that's fine. They have no other option but my inner city urban what they have to do and so

Unknown Speaker 1:45:43 the urban people change things with boycotting the transit system. Yes. And the thing about the transit system that can say that it was about I'm just saying it wasn't all about her. It was Rosa Parks getting on the bus was to anger the black people it wasn't for the white people to get them to join in the boycott. It's like they need some kind of monumental move moment in order to want to actually participate in the boycott. Well sometimes that's what it takes. I mean America makes it especially now it is with all the technology it makes you want to consume it makes you want to be part of things that makes you want to seem cool. You get used to the nice clothes you get used to maybe being able to eat the foods you like

Unknown Speaker 1:46:18 but one I think we're setting up we're setting up a false dichotomy here right where you have to we have to be all peaceful all boycotting all all all kind of gracious and whatever or you have to Ryan and you don't and and it's not just that you have to pick between one or the other. It's that all of those voices are valid and and lead to change you know, it's not that he's spot on the middle ground. Well, no, it's not that you're you're right, you're right. It's not that any one particular way influences everybody, universally everybody universally in the same

Unknown Speaker 1:46:50 one other thing I'll say about riots, I'm not angry. Like I said, I'm not angry at them for writing. I understand where that frustration comes from. Yeah, I've had moments like that in my life where it's like, I'd like to hit this fucker in the face. But what I'm saying is tell you sometimes it works to polarize the country because you have your people that are pretty much but you're against them anyway. I'm not saying they're appointed. I think that's a good thing. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:47:13 And I agree it is polarizing sometimes. And it does make some people have something to point at everything. And then to those people who pointed that and make that a polarizing issue. I say fuck you think that's a good thing you for making this a polarizing issue and being that fucking backward.

Unknown Speaker 1:47:30 But I actually have that enlightened conversation with that person. That's when they're like, well, they're burning their own city.

Unknown Speaker 1:47:36 I think that's a good thing. Yeah, I think that polarizing issue is a great thing. Because what it does is it forces people out of the middle position, the people who have come by apathetically and done nothing about what they knew was wrong and sat there and it forces everyone to take a position and it forces everyone else to either have to defend the wrong position they hold right which they can't do or to stand up for the position they no was right all along to

Unknown Speaker 1:48:01 that and to expose what they believe. And that's I think it's

Unknown Speaker 1:48:05 almost a religious dichotomy there because I think they still stayed pretty much apathetic they just have something to bitch about why they stay apathetic Yeah, cuz I mean most of the time what do you have

Unknown Speaker 1:48:18 I was just gonna hang on there man I'm I'm trying to jump in and

Unknown Speaker 1:48:23 Ryan's just there like

Unknown Speaker 1:48:26 a couple of times bring up the boycott issue with polarizing that because when you have the boycott going on one group of boycott the other group that is on the exact opposite side that wants to fucking make a thing for it will purposely give that place business and grow their fucking girl profits for them like when everybody's boycotting Chick fil A their profits fucking sore because I'll hold people like well you know what, all the other fuckin times this week two times this week so give them more money

Unknown Speaker 1:48:51 again let them eat it and die it's the same thing but that's so

Unknown Speaker 1:48:55 true. I hope you choke on that chicken

Unknown Speaker 1:48:58 but for sometimes with the polarizing of a boycott it doesn't always work with some issues with with with issues. Yes. Because they give business to them because of to be on the other side of them. Yeah, but

Unknown Speaker 1:49:10 over time, though, and the same thing we see with rolling coal and global

Unknown Speaker 1:49:14 warming, but it all settles in flows can we

Unknown Speaker 1:49:17 get the misogyny out of this? We can girl caught this stuff too. And we want to keep them we can girl chi hate burger, and

Unknown Speaker 1:49:25 it really only works. And it really only works in first world countries, right? I mean, how are people in third world countries going to boycott the shit that they're not buying?

Unknown Speaker 1:49:35 Because it depends on what the resources because there are some things in third world country that they still rely on. I mean, that's where most of our cigarette industry is.

Unknown Speaker 1:49:42 I'm not gonna buy the water I need to live right? Yeah, yeah, the water their water

Unknown Speaker 1:49:46 is shitty anyway. Yeah, I'm saying but if you look at like cigarettes, I mean, there's been what it wasn't New Guinea, but there's someplace that tried to pass a law basically boycotting cigarettes and they sued that country. Hmm. And when you think About the

Unknown Speaker 1:50:00 tobacco companies who I remember seeing this device. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:50:05 When you think about the new TPP Yeah, that's one of those things that's taken away American sovereignty and put you in like a similar situation. There's certain things though, regardless of the people, they're still needed to either work or to spend their money in any area that you live in.

Unknown Speaker 1:50:22 Yeah, well, we haven't happy note and tonight off on it. Oh, no happiness.

Unknown Speaker 1:50:27 No good.

Unknown Speaker 1:50:28 Do we not have anything? I haven't

Unknown Speaker 1:50:30 peonies in the you didn't get to speak to Lucia. Yeah. Yeah. We got to speak.

Unknown Speaker 1:50:35 Come back, Lucian, Lucian,

Unknown Speaker 1:50:37 and welcome back. I'm just gonna call him Doug from now on, because it's, it's been, I think even, you know, going into the interview, I thought, Okay. He's going to be representing the Satanic Temple, all referred to him as Lucian. Throughout the thing, and I fucked up like right off the bat. Hey, Doug. Hey, Doug. So I fucked up right off the bat. And then I thought, fuck, mental, mental, mental. No, don't do that again. And then I think we got like, another 10 minutes into it. And immediately again, I was like, Yeah, Lucien.

Unknown Speaker 1:51:17 I didn't notice that. Yeah, but I did notice that you tried to stave off the the making fun of your fanboy cutting that off in

Unknown Speaker 1:51:29 yourself. Yeah. Fuck. Why not? Man. I was like, I told these guys. I was drunk texting you because I did.

Unknown Speaker 1:51:35 No, but you know what? It was awesome. Yeah, it was really cool.

Unknown Speaker 1:51:39 I do have one positive note. And then I've made all the way through this thing. No pee break.

Unknown Speaker 1:51:43 Nice. Same here. Same here.

Unknown Speaker 1:51:46 Me. Three more. I'm

Unknown Speaker 1:51:49 saying for my third appearance. I've normally hit the restroom like three four times by now. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:51:54 Wow. Well, then you would almost be up with Matt. I'm pretty terrible. That's right. No, yeah. I really, really appreciate Doug coming on the show. I look forward to having him on the show again sometime in the near future.

Unknown Speaker 1:52:07 Yeah, one when we get some developments on that Oklahoma case. Yeah. Or Missouri, either or

Unknown Speaker 1:52:13 Oklahoma? Or I mean they they've got a lot of irons in the

Unknown Speaker 1:52:18 fire. I love the excuse on the Oklahoma when they put the monument back up like oh, this is private funds. We're not using any state fun.

Unknown Speaker 1:52:24 Yeah, as if it matters. Property Yeah, it's still on state fucking property. We didn't

Unknown Speaker 1:52:31 even talk about weasel off with them either. Yeah. But

Unknown Speaker 1:52:35 Oklahoma's is one of the many states that you can see regressing throughout our country Oklahoma, the whole Bible though Oklahoma

Unknown Speaker 1:52:41 and Mississippi, I think Utah. I

Unknown Speaker 1:52:46 you know, you're testing to an extent, but I don't

Unknown Speaker 1:52:49 I think Oklahoma and Mississippi are probably the two biggest offenders. I think Utah's Texas, Texas, you get weird shit coming out of Texas. But Texas isn't nearly as red as most people think. Texas is so gerrymandered, much like Utah, is that that it appears a lot more red than it is but you still have, you know, places like Dallas and Austin and

Unknown Speaker 1:53:14 I'm really really surprised to find out that Dallas was not a Republican city. Yeah, it's pretty much democratic.

Unknown Speaker 1:53:20 I mean, it's basically basically almost anywhere you go, where you have Urban Development's, it's not fucking red it's it's the rural uneducated backwater fucking ignorant places that you have a lot more red showing up and that's where our listeners play. Yeah. Yeah, you get Mike Huckabee out there saying a bunch of dumb shit.

Unknown Speaker 1:53:46 So that just remind all our listeners anymore fucking ignorant

Unknown Speaker 1:53:49 and just backward. I will Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 1:53:52 you know, he has really taken a decline over the last 10 years though

Unknown Speaker 1:53:56 at you know at one point I there there was a point in time where I would have voted for John McCain and or mine to

Unknown Speaker 1:54:05 that was pre bush. Yeah, remember it was

Unknown Speaker 1:54:07 pre Bush Okay, so yeah, more than 10 years 20 years Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:54:11 But Mike Huckabee has taken like a hard hard hard fucking turn today yet at least from everything I've seen but then but he steers recent appearance his recent appearance on fucking Real Time with Bill Maher. Yeah, I had I had to stop and rethink my whole view on him because Bill Maher had him on the show and was just like, So how you doing? Or How you holding up softball? Like you seem you look good. How's everything going? He didn't ask him about any of the fucking asshole things he's been doing or saying the right but you know and so then I had to rethink and actually question myself and go okay, so my previous views of Mike Huckabee was it because I'd seen him on shit like real time before where they weren't asking him any real fucking questions. And they just let him come on there and look like you know, the young Grandfather that I remember as a kid and Mr. Nice Guy, and he's jolly and happy, because they weren't fucking asking him about any of the shithead fucking things that he's actually the biggest fan

Unknown Speaker 1:55:11 of Bill Maher.

Unknown Speaker 1:55:12 I'm not either. I like those.

Unknown Speaker 1:55:14 There's been Well, the thing is I like Bill Maher, but he's a panel. It's not like a Bill Maher. Lanzi. He's a panel. It's the people that he gets on. He gets interesting people of Sam Hey, Neil deGrasse Tyson. Yeah, well, you can show it to people. Yeah, right.

Unknown Speaker 1:55:29 When he's when he's got some when he's got someone who's got a well thought out position and a tough stance like Sam Harris. He's happy to stand over there behind the walls. Yo, yo, get him Sam, you know, but when when he's on his own, he's a fucking asshole. I was gonna say pussy, but he's the biggest

Unknown Speaker 1:55:49 he says so many backwards. Stupid, ridiculous. Shit. I'm just not a big fan. That there are a lot of things that I like about Bill Maher. And there are a lot of things that he says that I like, and I think he's funny occasionally, but lately I jammed UPS not great. No, no. And lately I have a really hard fucking time watching him because he's

Unknown Speaker 1:56:06 drawn Judith Miller. Freakin made me sick. He's one that Judith Miller the one the New York Times writer that pretty much dick cheney would feed her a story she'd repeated then he'd quote that story is the reason for needing to go to war. Well she's the victim Yeah, like Oh, well I wasn't the only one doing it and Bill Maher softball on her left and right and my guy wasn't

Unknown Speaker 1:56:28 the only one doing that excuses. Sweetheart come here and give us kiss like I

Unknown Speaker 1:56:33 think you're the only one getting direct leads and being quoted directly

Unknown Speaker 1:56:37 he's he's just he's he's more that Disney atheism that I'm not into that G rated soft you know, it's extreme on some of them. I don't know how he gets extreme on anti Vax, you know, and then backs out of that he you know, don't

Unknown Speaker 1:56:52 it's just that he it's just that he's he's like he's like a fucking seesaw you know, there's some things that he's that he's hard line on and some things he's not and some things you'll choose to question about and some things he won't and then he'll fucking criticize people for you know atheists being wrong or I watched an episode where at the end of it it was all I mean, you could have been fucking pat robertson sitting there and saying some of the stupid shit he was saying, where you know, I see people doing this and I see I see liberals doing this and I see liberals doing that and you're just harming liberal causes. I was like, fuck you Bill. Who the fuck? Who the fuck do you think you are that you are the liberals? Fucking spokesperson I

Unknown Speaker 1:57:34 kind of like the Bill Maher show more than like Bill Maher. It's the way I'd put it.

Unknown Speaker 1:57:38 Yeah. Yeah, there there are a lot of dumb fucking things that spill out of his sock hole. Yeah, that it's it's getting harder and harder for me to watch a show lately. And in fact, I have like, I think I have like six or seven episodes of real time saved up because I just I haven't been excited to watch it anymore. Because it just sometimes it's fucking painful to have to watch it and try to pick through these mounds of shit for the tiny little diamonds that will spill out occasionally lately.

Unknown Speaker 1:58:08 Well, I think they'll mark a whole episode. But tonight we're about we're about out of time.

Unknown Speaker 1:58:15 Shut down by the middle of the road or

Unknown Speaker 1:58:17 I'm trying to keep us on a similar time chain. time schedule. Time and

Unknown Speaker 1:58:23 smack what are we counting? Are we shooting all of the time? We have to give it us an extra half

Unknown Speaker 1:58:29 hour on the clock.

Unknown Speaker 1:58:30 Yeah. Daddy has spoken. I feel like we were just hitting our stride and

Unknown Speaker 1:58:35 and Randy does like I'm like we could easily make a four hour show. But do we do have a song to play it on tonight? Do we or do we not? Oh,

Unknown Speaker 1:58:46 we've always named something on Thank you very much for tuning in everybody. We'd like to thank our very, very special guest, Mr. Doug Messner, a very special Lucien Greaves. I think he's very, very special. He said, you've

Unknown Speaker 1:59:00 got too many special.

Unknown Speaker 1:59:01 Yeah, I think it's one too many specials.

Unknown Speaker 1:59:03 We'll have him. We'll have him on again. I'm sure. Next week, we will have Mr. Joey Lee Kirkman on the show. He's the author of bedtime Bible stories and the soon to be released PR Pope. Oh, yeah. Which I'm very much looking forward to. Joe is also an awesome guy.

Unknown Speaker 1:59:22 I have his book. Yes, I

Unknown Speaker 1:59:24 have it too. I also have some autographed, original little sketches.

Unknown Speaker 1:59:29 I almost bought his autographed book, but it was like, Oh, I gotta wait two more weeks to get the autograph.

Unknown Speaker 1:59:36 Joey is a great, great guy. I really look forward to having him on the show next week. So be sure to tune in next week to catch all of that happy action, everybody. Until then, happy trails and enjoy the rest of your time. And thank you very much for coming on tonight. Oh God Oh fire everybody

Unknown Speaker 2:00:07 just remember as always you can find us at godless revolution@gmail.com Facebook and Twitter

Unknown Speaker 2:00:14 we'll steal tiles that grab the road God seats that selflessly my friends that can carry the heaviest of

Unknown Speaker 2:00:35 I've got a mine to your house my intentions are his internal combustion Satan is got brakes I'm wide awake I can stop this car at any time

Unknown Speaker 2:01:34 at the very last second I can change directions turn completely around if I do so. I've got my intention Satan Satan is my mode is this mistake stay