Podcasts/Sacred Tension-ShivaHoney708tf

ShivaHoney708tf SUMMARY KEYWORDS ritual, people, book, tst, experience, satanic temple, religion, satanism, satanic, writing, satanist, feel, religious, life, shiva, part, mass, absolutely, long, chapter SPEAKERS Shiva Honey, Stephen Bradford Long

00:00 You're listening to a rock candy podcast. Hi, I'm Liam Hooper. And I'm Peterson Toscano. Together, we co host the Bible bash podcast. Each month we look into a different ancient story. We're curious to find insights into our own queer lives. We discuss these and share our findings with you. You can find the Bible bash podcast pretty much anywhere you listen to podcast,

Stephen Bradford Long 00:24 New episodes come out at the end of each month. This is sacred tension, the podcast about the discipline of asking questions. My name is Steven Bradford long and we are here on the rock candy Podcast Network. For more shows like this one, go to rock candy recordings.com. All right. Well, hello, everyone. And welcome back to the Coronavirus series of sacred tension, because we live in a fucking apocalypse in my brain is just not able to do as much work as it used to be able to do right now. Because we're all just managing stress, we're all just managing massive amounts of uncertainty, and financial distress and all of that stuff. The brain fog is everywhere. And I have it too. So I still want to provide these conversations for you. Especially for people who might be feeling a bit alone for people who might, you know, feel stressed out shut in into their homes and whatnot. So I want to provide these conversations, but they're just going to have to require a little bit less work. Because I do not have the energy for right now. Also, I don't know how much longer I will have to do this is why we might be getting back to regular edited episodes, because I do kind of feel like my life is somewhat coming back together. So it might be a couple of weeks, or it might still be several months. I'm not sure. But I see light at the end of the tunnel. For me personally, I feel like I'm adjusting to the new normal. So this I'm not sure how many more episodes there will be like this. But thank you for tolerating and enjoying my unedited episodes. All right. Well, before we go on, I have to thank my latest patrons. There has been a huge crop of patrons and I have to thank all of them so very much from the bottom of my heart, because now it's really hard for everyone, including creators. And so if you have a creator who you really love, a small, independent creator, that creator relies on their listeners. So if there's someone you love some like a YouTuber or a musician or someone who you just absolutely love who's, who's smaller, who's more independent, please support that creator if you're able to do all of us small independent creators rely on you. Of course, there is no pressure and I need you first and foremost to take care of yourself right now we are living in hard financial times. And but if you're able to give, then please do so I need to thank my latest patrons Rohan Shiva. Oh Shiva. Hi. Hey, Rohan, Rohan, Shiva, Nathaniel. Nick, Phil, Kelly. Kisa, Christopher, Lady Lillith. Jen Mao, Lisa Willard clowns. And kitty, thank you all so much. You're amazing. And for those of you who are unable to give right now that's okay. I completely understand I will continue to bring these conversations to you for free. And if sometime in the future you want to become a patron you're welcome to but there's no pressure. All right. So I am talking to the absolutely amazing and magnificent Shiva Honey. Hello Shiva. How are you? Hello. Are you I'm so great. I'm I'm really tired. I just got off work. And let me tell you the grocery store business during a peak endemic is, is complicated and stressful. So it feels like every day when

Shiva Honey 05:07 I can only imagine I remember reading about

Stephen Bradford Long 05:10 Yeah, yeah, it's nuts. It's it's been absolutely insane. Fortunately, things are kind of calming down some so. But every day when I come home I just feel fucking destroyed. But how are you doing?

Shiva Honey 05:27 I'm telling you to but like for other reasons I can't imagine working in a grocery store right now I've been so lucky to be able to be at home and work from home for the most part over the last couple of months. But it's it's rough out there things are finally I've had a lot of craziness and drama in the last couple of weeks. But things have this week is things have turned around. So the reason I'm tired is because my husband and I stayed up until like seven in the morning playing Sailor Moon monopoly. That's amazing. Over the unexpected, but you know, that's great. Well,

Stephen Bradford Long 06:01 that's great. That's hilarious. So yeah, speaking of hung over my, I had to send you a message shortly before recording being like, hey, so my son, my very drunk partner who's playing Wolfenstein in the next room right now. drunk, drunk, ordered a pizza and I had to go pick it up because like, I might be late. I'm so sorry. No, COVID-19 is the is the best time to say get very drunk. I guess.

Shiva Honey 06:33 It is, you know, I'm sure I think liquor sales, I saw a statistic somewhere that they've gone up incredibly sense. Oh, yes, you can, you know, makes a lot

Stephen Bradford Long 06:40 of sense. I mean, at the at the grocery store, we have an incredible alcohol section. And it's all like, small, independent breweries. I'm in Asheville, which is like, you know, our, you know, beer city north or your city, America. And so all of the small independent breweries are here, not all of them, of course, but a ton. And we, we must spend hundreds of 1000s of dollars now, try keeping that every week keeping that section stocked. I have never seen people drink this much alcohol. I mean, there are people coming through the lines, with carts piled flat of just alcohol, and literally buying like $2,000 worth of alcohol at a time. And I want to be like, You do realize this zombies aren't coming. Right. Yeah. Anyway, so. So you're Shiva, honey, which means you're an amazing badass, you are the author of the devil's tome, you are part of the leadership of the Satanic Temple. And you have been for quite a while. You were involved in the Seattle in the Seattle chapter. And you are on the International Council of the Satanic Temple. So you and now if I understand correctly, you are the director of events.

Shiva Honey 08:06 It's kind of gone back and forth. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, I got involved with TST back in 2014. Actually, the Detroit chapter so I'm based out of Michigan. Um,

Stephen Bradford Long 08:16 oh, right. Right, right. Yes. Yeah, yeah. But um, that was my dyslexia. That was my dyslexia. It's like, which one is in the Northeast, and which one is the Northwest?

Shiva Honey 08:26 I've been I've visited the temple and Seattle, and they're great folks, too. I went to one of their parties. It was really awesome. But um, was I gonna say, Yeah, I got involved back in 2014. Detroit was like the first chapter of the Satanic Temple and I kind of got my feet wet with the the work there. And then I became a, I was a founding member of the National Council now known as the International Council. I think that was back in 2016. When we formed, I served on that for a couple of years. And then I transitioned out to do more like project work. I don't even I guess I still have the title, the director of national events for tst. But I mostly my work with them now. Is, is around creating rituals for the headquarters. So I've been coming to Salem over the last couple of years to, to create with a group of awesome collaborators, the black masses that we've done on baptisms, all that good stuff. So it's been great.

Stephen Bradford Long 09:29 Fantastic. Yeah. So for people who don't know who are new to this show, first of all, welcome. Hi, I'm glad you're here. And secondly, TST stands for the Satanic Temple. And if you're new to the show, the Satanic Temple is a non theistic religious organization and I have done lots of writing about non theistic Satanism at my website. Also go check out the satanic temple.com If you are interested in need more in information about it. So, your whole theme you are such, how do I how do I Where do I want to go with this? Basically, I love you, because you have a sense of, of ritual and for lack of a better term mysticism, and I mean that in an entirely non theistic sense.

Shiva Honey 10:32 Well, thank you,

Stephen Bradford Long 10:34 you know what, I don't know. And that I, and it is because and that, and the lack of those qualities is what always felt me shut off from the broader atheist community. Does, yeah, I mean, I am a deeply religious person, who is also non theistic. And I'm also, I consider myself a mystic, but I consider myself a non Supernaturalists. And I know that's a contradiction in terms for a lot of people. But for me, it isn't. And so I always got this sense that TST was, was to a certain degree hospitable to that. Maybe not consistently, maybe not in every chapter, or what have you. But I always had the sense that there might be some openness to it. And then I read your book, which I just thought was so wonderful and so liberating, because it, it helped me. I think the I think the best thing about it is the permission that it gives people, I felt like the book gave me permission to be who I am, which is a deeply embodied, very religious and very ritualistic non theist, and Satanist. Does that make sense?

Shiva Honey 12:00 Yeah, that's amazing. I mean, that's what I really wanted to set out to do with this book, because I think I think we actually probably come from similar backgrounds, too. I've read some of your writing, and I thought that you're Yes, we do credible. And I really appreciate that. And I appreciate what you're saying now about mysticism. It's, I'm also I guess, I, you know, I always considered myself spiritual, I guess, to some extent, although not in the theistic way, that I guess mystic, spiritual, whatever. And I find that within, you know, I've done a lot of different work within the temple previous to the temple, I wasn't, I didn't really identify as a Satanist. But my journey has been one more were a lot of folks in the temple gravitate toward like, really, you know, really strong activism, which I still appreciate and take part in or different different sorts of areas of interest. For me, the inner work part has always been the most interesting. And the thing that I've really focused on cultivating over the last couple of years, and yeah, for me, when I first got involved with the temple, I think, I think we as an organization, being you know, a group of people, we're still trying to figure out how ritual fit in and it was quite a taboo for a long time. And a lot of people came from that hard atheist background that carried a lot of baggage rightly so because of, you know, really fucked up religious upbringings, or, you know, various ABC and D that's happening out in the world the way that evangelicals have, or other folks have hijacked religion or ritual, in a certain way. That's been really distasteful. So it's, it's taken us, I think, a long time to come to a place where we can kind of understand the nuance of all of this and have it still, you know, incorporate science and incorporate the values that we have as Satanists. So it's been an ongoing process. But I found that so there's so many of us out there, I before I started writing the book, before I started doing the rituals at headquarters, I thought that I was one of the few people maybe that was really interested in that aspect of Satanism. And then, through my work at with the temple over the last couple of years at the headquarters doing rituals, and through teaching some classes, I found there were so many folks that were kind of in the same headspace that I've been in and and wanted somebody to come along and say like, it's okay. Yeah, so that was kind of my purpose in writing this book. I was like, nobody's written anything like this before for our specific group. And I want to give people the permission, if I can to be able to kind of explore this path and make it their own, and hopefully inspire some other people to kind of help this area of our religion grow more, and, you know,

Stephen Bradford Long 14:32 yeah, and that's, you know, that's one of the most exciting things about being in a healthy new religious movement. And that healthy part is a really important caveat. But a healthy new religious movement, which is we get to decide I mean, we get to shape and be part of the conversation about how this religion grows and what it will look like. And that to me is just so exciting that we are in the process. As of building this religious movement, it's still very much in its infancy. And you know, what you were saying a minute ago was just exactly my own experience where, when I came to TST, I was kind of a, I was so on board with all of the activism with the symbol of Satan with the tenets with all of it with the non theism, so on and so forth. But I wasn't entirely sure if they would be on board with me. Yeah, you know, being a, being a fully religious human being who loves the occult, who loves Taro, who loves all of these different things that are more quote unquote woowoo. But I found enormous fulfillment in from a non theistic perspective. And just as I've spent more time in the temple, I have, I've discovered that I absolutely have a place that and I haven't felt marginalized at all, every so often there will be someone who kind of throws up a flare or whatever. But you know, that's everywhere. So what has been your journey into satanic ritual?

Shiva Honey 16:28 Yeah, well, I guess it starts, it's, it gets lost start at the beginning. So I grew up very religious person, I was raised inside of Evangelical Church, which I really clung to, I think I had a really, I had a really traumatic childhood. And, you know, a lot of the trauma that I experienced was at the hands of the church, but for whatever reason, I think, just out of pure survival, I decided to just take on the mantle of it anyway. And just like become an even keel basically, as a kid, you know, I got baptized, I think when I was eight, or something like that. And I was like, the funny thing, I was like the Bible Memory Verse champion. I was like a wantagh's and like, all that, all that business, and then I got older. And even as a teenager, the whole Christianity thing stuck with me quite a bit. But it's shifted. You know, I never took the social beliefs really of the church on but I did take on the idea of Jesus is like, a liberator of people to some extent more on like the liberation theology side of things. So like, some of the social movements that happened around Christianity that were actually positive, like in South America, and that sort of thing, that all the folks that ended up getting, like, decommissioned by the Catholic Church by Ratzinger and everything.

Stephen Bradford Long 17:41 They're badass acids. They're all amazing.

Shiva Honey 17:45 Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I just, I thought they were really great. And I knew so many, there were a lot of people outside of that church, specifically that I was involved with, that were good people. And like, I was always really interested in like community activism. And I found a place in there for a while as I got older, but then the real shift took place when I helped my mom get a divorce from her really abusive ex husband. So I got a house and I like moved her in with me. And she's, she's kind of a recovering evangelically She's become like, pretty Willy and interesting in her last couple of years, kind of along similar path to mine, but But anyhow, once I was able to separate kind of from his influence, and actually my biological father, who was also really abusive and Catholic and fucked up. And once we were able to kind of get away from those people, I was able to finally safely kind of explore things on my own, because I was always interested in I was trying to write I wrote papers about Satanism, when I was in high school, I think, or maybe early college, like kind of a ethnographic sort of experience, like trying to to find like a church of Satan group around my neighborhood, and that sort of thing. And I, I was always interested in like astrology and witchcraft. But you know, all those things were like banned in my households and, you know, punished severely if you are caught. So I definitely kind of gave that space and filled it, I guess, with like, the sort of mystical Christianity. And then once I was finally able to separate from all that I was probably about 25. And I started getting into Crowley and I started getting into just just a compendium of various like occult thinkers, taking what I thought was good, leaving what I thought wasn't trying to understand a little bit more about the practice of witchcraft, primarily, you know, being a solo practitioner, not really being interested in any sort of hierarchical groups or anything like that. And then, you know, through I heard about the Satanic Temple. I remember being at work, and coming across the pink mass and thinking that was like so great, because I also loved like the work of Abbie Hoffman, in this sort of political theater aspect to activism. And I thought, like, how I thought it was so smart and so funny. Yes.

Stephen Bradford Long 19:57 That was that was my first exposure to no actually my exposure was The BDSM babies that checks blacks that Jax Blackmore did. And I fucking loved it. I was I instantly got it. I don't know, like I instantly understood what TST was and what it was doing in that it was a religion.

Shiva Honey 20:20 Yeah, yeah, totally. And it just to me, there was that multi pronged approach that I've always thought was so smart to there's like, I call it portfolio kind of tsp. There's the activism part. You know, there's the art part that I think we're exploring more and more. And then there's, you know, there's the legal the legal portion of that work. And then there's the community building, it's, and it all comes together and weaves around in this really, really interesting kind of tapestry.

Stephen Bradford Long 20:46 And it's, it's gorgeous.

Shiva Honey 20:48 Yeah, I love it. And it's, it's, so Jax was the chapter ahead of Detroit I hadn't, I don't think she'd become the chapter head yet when I got involved. So the group in Detroit was just beginning. And this was like the first chapter of TSC. And I gotten I was, I was already active in the art community, and I was doing like satanic themed occult performances with my band and everything. So I got invited to go to this haunted house with a whole bunch of Satanists. So I was like, Cool. And then basically, the chapter started so right after that, we did, like snick activity, so we brought the stink tivity statue to the Capitol, Lansing, which was completely insane. And we kind of just went on from there for a little while, we we burn bright and short. Sure. And in the background of all this, I was I had been for years, you know, practicing tarot, I had been, you know, creating rituals for myself, especially, you know, coming out of that traumatic adolescence and trying to find different ways to heal. And to understand myself, I had also come out of a big breakup, and, you know, was exploring, like being queer, and being all these other things. And it was just, that was happening in the background, but I wasn't really talking to anyone about it, because I was too nervous. What people would think, at that time, like I don't, you know, there wasn't really a clear message that that was accepted within the organization and that sort of thing. So I was kind of quietly practicing the backgrounds and, and then got asked to come to Salem, I think it was 2017 to, to take over the first black mass of headquarters. So I came in there and just kind of realized that we're all kind of figuring this out as we go along. And then just kind of like, stopped asking permission, and started just like doing my thing and seeing that people were responding to it. Well, so it's been a long journey, but in my mind is all makes a lot of sense.

Stephen Bradford Long 22:36 Yeah, no, I love it. And, and there's so much in there that I relate to as well. How did people? How did people initially respond to your kind of esoteric ritual interests in the Satanic Temple?

Shiva Honey 22:53 I would say not well. At least I can say that there have always been those people that I'm close to in the organization who've understood like Lucien and I are close. I'm close with one the OGS stew and what does what

Stephen Bradford Long 23:07 does OG mean? Oh, original gangster

Shiva Honey 23:09 like,

Stephen Bradford Long 23:10 oh, okay, cool. TST got it. Okay. I was like, Is this a technical term and TST that I'm not aware of, okay, cool.

Shiva Honey 23:19 Society. Great, you know, like, hello, access, who's one of my, one of my friends, he was also part of the Detroit chapter, and he's in like, Hail Satan and everything. He's, he's great. And he also comes from that sort of background too. So we, some of us would talk about it amongst ourselves. Lucien nuts, you know, he doesn't really practice but he just appreciates and like a supportive of this sort of thing. But, uh, yeah, I would when the forum was active, I don't know if you're on Facebook or not, but there was a tsp official. Yes. That was Oh, yeah. Just kind of, you know,

Stephen Bradford Long 23:51 there were there would be wave after wave after way. Yeah. Just ceaseless controversy. And, and also, you know, some of that controversy has kind of spilled over onto my Discord server for my community, where, you know, fortunately, my community is it, they're just so wonderful. And usually when, when conflict does arise, they handle it really well. And generally, I'm really proud of them ever want everyone at my Discord server? I think they're amazing, and I'm super proud of them for how they handle the occasional conflict. But one thing that that has come up is people feeling confused and ostracized by what they have seen as the culture of TST which is some people are hardcore, no, which is allowed period. And then there's you

Shiva Honey 24:58 and here's you. Just than my own thing, yes.

Stephen Bradford Long 25:01 But also, I mean, and the way I try to articulate it is, well, as someone who has been in various religious settings, you know, these tensions are normal and they're healthy, as as uncomfortable as they are. And so, the fact that there is a faction in TST, who will always be no witches allowed? As, as wrong as I think that is? Oh, and, you know, no magic allowed no, no ritual allowed as, as wrong as I think that is, I think it's healthy, that they're present, you know, religious community is made up of tension. But also, I am very much it, I feel like what I tell people is if I am welcomed, if I Steven long and welcomed in the Satanic Temple, there is no reason for a non theistic witch to be welcomed, there is no for or there's no reason for a non theistic witch not to be welcomed. Or a non theistic Muslim, or two, or, you know, what have you, I really see TST as kind of being this unexpectedly broad cultural phenomenon of, of people from different religious traditions finding solidarity in the temple, you know, whether they're witches, or pagans, or Christians or whatnot. And, and that is how I approach that whole thing. But it is an ongoing issue. And it's so it's so funny to me how some people just lose their shit. Yeah,

Shiva Honey 26:50 yeah. At the moment, we're not like, yeah, we're not like a monolith, you know, and I think that's apt, there's no religion, where people are all going to be robots. And if there were, then that's absolutely horrible, right? Like

Stephen Bradford Long 26:59 we Aryan don't want that.

Shiva Honey 27:01 Yes, nobody has the same experience, nobody needs, we know, we have the same basic needs. But like, you know, when it gets to get down to the details, there's a lot of nuance there. Yeah, and going back to kind of what we were saying before, like, when I first got involved with TST, nobody really spoke about it, but then the forum, you know, people would start having conversations, and I would chime in here and there. But before I was kind of known a bit more, you know, I'd go on there, and people were just really mean, and also behind my back, and I'm sure they still are behind my back. I just don't care. But like, you know, I've had people sent me send me screenshots talking about how stupid I am. Like, I practice taro and make ritual, I can't believe she was put in leadership, you know, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, well, that's fine. Like, everybody's entitled to their opinion. But for the most part, now, I just might my feeling with TSC is that, you know, I have a lot of tolerance for diversity, diversity of opinion, diversity of background, as long as you're not like a neo Nazi or something like that, like, you know, yeah. But I think that, you know, it's the tenants and, you know, this, this belief in those values that unites a lot of us and the good work that we do. And, you know, for me, when I thought, you know, again, with writing this book, I had, I was somebody that had been involved with the organization for a long time and had had positions of leadership. So I'm, like, somebody's got to speak up for us, you know, and to be taken seriously. And so I wanted to use any sort of clout that I'd gained over the years to be like, you know, it's okay. Because also being like a religion that's recognized by the government now, the American government, North American, or I should say, United States government, like, there's a need to, you know, demonstrate that we have all these different practices and it's just like, it'll just make sense to me, you know, like,

Stephen Bradford Long 28:51 we are a religion, we are a religion and a religion is embodied, it is incarnated, and you know, involves the body and the mind and ritual and all that to varying degrees for different people, you know, and yeah, one of my big interests is um, is developing maybe develop as the wrong word but, but cultivating the interior satanic practice. And and how do we create a culture that encourages that to in such a way that it is accessible to people who want it, you know, and that that is the important distinction for people who want it. There are some people there are some Satanists who will not be interested in, say a, a private interior or satanic practice, and that's totally okay. I'm one of the people who does want that and does want to build it, but that other Satanists don't. It doesn't make them less satanic, you know? No one is no, no one is more or less satanic based on how they practice. But I would love to see, I think one of the reasons why I was so excited about your book is just because I, I am personally very interested in cultivating more of a space where we can have that interior religious experience, if that makes sense to you. I don't know how well I'm communicating that No, no, I

Shiva Honey 30:37 understand completely what you're saying. I've been thinking about this a lot, too. And I've been thinking about I just had some really great conversations, I have a Patreon too. And I just had

Stephen Bradford Long 30:46 this everyone goes support her on Patreon, by the way, thanks. Go, oh support, go support Shiva, go support Pinna mu, go support Lucian, and then you could have like, a, a fabulous satanic quadrilateral of Patreon satanic content. Yeah, let's

Shiva Honey 31:04 do it, we're doing it. But you know, that was kind of the idea behind that project. And getting the Patreon going was that I wanted to help encourage and cultivate, you know, that community that sort of the group that's focused on ritual, satanic ritual, and, you know, can can learn and grow together and that sort of thing we can where we can all learn from each other and share our thoughts. So I had a really great conversation with those folks yesterday. And then I had a really great conversation this afternoon with the TST, Ohio group. And we got into some really interesting philosophical discussions and like, really interesting ways that now that I think people understand it, and know that it's okay, that they want to explore this idea of ritual. And we got into like discussions of like, the self and like metaphysics, and like quantum physics and all this wild stuff that I hadn't really thought of, in the context of my work yet, but it's cool it was getting, it was getting really cool. And I just love seeing that happen. I love you know, the thing that I can't stand is like elitism, and I can't stand the sort of hierarchical approach. Like you were saying, like, I'm a better Satanists than you, because it's like, I'm an anarchist at heart, and I'm like, everybody just needs to do whatever they need to do to like, get them through the day and like, make them feel good. You know what I mean?

Stephen Bradford Long 32:15 Like, there's life is short, like, life is fucking short. And like if people need to, you know, piss on each other consensually to feel good and have at it, go for it. Like,

Shiva Honey 32:30 I talked about ritual in the context of sex a lot to just like some people, you know, and I talked, I was on Lucians podcast, like, when I first released the book or like, first announced the book or whatever, and that's what I was talking about. It's like, you know, some people don't need ritual. Some people want like vanilla sex. Some people just want to, like, be straightforward. Get it done with don't need the additional processes to like, get off, you know, but some people have these very detailed, beautiful and exquisite

Stephen Bradford Long 32:57 they don't need a latex bodysuit. And that's okay. Yeah.

Shiva Honey 33:00 And some people need to latex bodysuit that's like a frog and like, that's exactly. It's cool. Like,

Stephen Bradford Long 33:07 you know, I sure. Let's, let's embrace it. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, I think that, yeah, I remember hearing that conversation and really loving that part where just bringing a non judgmental aspect where I I think that if we're comparing ritual to kink, then I am, I am very, very, very kinky. I, I, I love the enchantment of it. And, you know, Joseph Laycock has a book called dangerous games, which is about Dungeons and Dragons. And oh, great. It's a great book. But what it's really about is, I mean, it's about the moral panic in the 80s. That over Dungeons and Dragons, has that tied into the Satanic Panic. And it's a great book. But what he says is that embedded in that panic was the harbor that Dungeons and Dragons was too much like religion in that it was ritualistic in that it was a shared imagined world, where you entered a space of enchantment, a shared reality. And he says, it isn't that it isn't real, it is an annex to reality. And, you know, when you play Dungeons and Dragons, you enter that alternate reality together into what he calls a pair of cars in a shared universe, and a shared imagined world and you have experiences there that alter you that change you that change your mind, it changes your brain and, and then you leave that space, you leave that sacred space and you return to the world altered in a significant way. And he says, what really frightened people about Dungeons and Dragons is that it was too much like really Jen, and it made the fundamentalists feel threatened. And, and I love that. And I and he says that play is at the root of all religion, this idea of entering an enchanted space. And, and having play and he does, he says he doesn't mean play in a in a degrading sense, but play as a fundamental human activity, that of, of entering into an enchanted space where we can experience transformation, and that that is the root of religious experience. And we also explore that in things like Dungeons and Dragons, right? So I, so you know, like, before we started recording, I lit my deep work candle, which I do whenever I do any kind of deep work, focused work. And that was because it sets the space and it creates kind of an enchanted atmosphere. And it's a physical representation of my focus as I do whatever work that I'm focused on, you know, and I have all kinds of little things like that in my life, where I just ritualized certain aspects of my life, to bring a certain measure of enchantment and wonder to it and try it. And it helps me become, it helps me be more open to the transformation of that experience. The candle thing, I have been doing it for a long time, but reading your book helped me clarify, oh, this is what I'm doing. I can do this more deliberately now.

Shiva Honey 36:35 You know, awesome. Yeah.

Stephen Bradford Long 36:39 So, some, so your book is divided between? What are the basic sections of your book? Explain kind of the journey that you take readers on through your book.

Shiva Honey 36:50 Yeah, I'm actually going. So I've got it in front of me, because I forget details sometimes. But yeah, basically. Yeah. You know, I wrote this book pretty quickly. But it had really been like, well, how many of you like a six year process, I guess, just through experience, trying to figure out exactly, not annoying that I would eventually write about just having these experiences and trying to understand how to explain my experience to other people try to get them to understand, again, like the context of ritual in this newer, new version of Satanism. So basically, the book is structured, I've got the foreword from Lucien, where he just kind of puts into context, how ritual fits in with the the framework within the framework of the Satanic Temple of got just a brief kind of introduction to the book, I start out because, you know, science is everything, and I do you feel like giving people reason, a scientific reason why ritual can fit in with our beliefs is important, and I think has been the thing that's convinced a lot of people that it's relevant and gets them to understand where we're coming from. So I've got like a brief meta analysis kind of, of the literature as it as it is now, more specifically, the literature that circulates around the kind of like the psychology of ritual, there's, there's a whole other body of literature that's more geared toward, like anthropological, sort of, like, you know, ritual brings us together as groups and that sort of thing. But this is more specifically, like, you know, some of the mechanisms, people trying to break down the mechanisms of how ritual works within the human psyche that kind of help us. So I start out with that, just giving the background and then I talk a little bit about just my life, I didn't want to get into too many details just because of, you know, it is what it is. But I just wanted to give people some background. And I think a lot of us share some common themes within our experience. And it's nice to know that other people have have had that. So just kind of like my background and how I got involved with Satanism, and sort of like kind of my mystical background, I guess, and interests and how that's all sort of led up to me creating my own practice, and can also give other people ideas about how to create their own and where to draw from, then I've got my section on, you know, how to build your personal practice. So these are just, that's just like a couple of short pointers, from my experience that can help as you're going through to try to to try to figure out, you know, what ritual means to you what kind of rituals you'd like to do how you'd like to create a ritual, that sort of thing, and also really to give people the permission to just, you know, go with their gut and do things that make sense to them. So the rest of the book is laid out around solo rituals. I'm predominantly like a solo practitioner. So I've got I think 14 rituals that are, you know, for personal working by themselves pretty much and can provide by no means are they like, you know, follow it to the letter, sort of like, here's what you have to do. It's more like, here's some things that I've come up with that have worked or have worked for other people that I've worked, have given them too and give them a try or let them serve as inspiration for you. So I've got those and then I've got the second section to that portion of the Book, which is about group ritual and and gets into for the first time. Some of the background behind the rituals that have been done at the Satanic Temple headquarters in Salem. It's got some really awesome photographs in there by June of 87. He's Steven Pompeo, he's He's incredible. He's actually working on a book himself that will be coming out eventually. will be amazing. But

Stephen Bradford Long 40:20 Oh, neat. So he's review him about that. Oh, you should.

Shiva Honey 40:22 Absolutely. Yeah, I'll put you guys in touch. He's incredible. Yeah, he just, I met him through Lex who also contributes to the book. He's a lot of illustrators a core. No. So this is Lex quarry. So he is one of the he does most of the illustrations for the solo rituals. And then Lucien does a lot of the other illustrations as well. So he designs a lot of the

Stephen Bradford Long 40:46 Yeah, part of the book. That's the whole other part of the book is The gorgeous illustrations and photographs. Like it, it really is a beautifully put together book. And it it currently sits on my altar. And is is a perfect altarpiece for my spooky little altar here in my study.

Shiva Honey 41:08 Yay, thank you, that was my that was my thought, too. I was like, if I'm gonna write a book, I want to make it really, really beautiful, because I'm very interested in aesthetics. And like, so much of what I've put together when I do big rituals, like at headquarters or with other groups, so much of me the ritual work in that context, revolves around the you know, the images and the, just like the dressing the environment. So I really wanted to make this I don't, I didn't just want to like flop out a book and be like, here you go, I wanted it to look really beautiful. And also to kind of support the artists that I really love. So Lucien, you know, I've always loved his artwork. And then Lex is incredible and has done like all the flyers for the HQ events and that sort of thing. He's such a talented artists, I really wanted to bring him into this as well. And yeah, a lot of that's highlighted in the group ritual section. So you can see things, you can see some of the photos of the rituals that we've done at HQ, you can see you get the scripts of the rituals that we've done kind of my thought process behind the rituals that I've worked on. And I also bring in other people that I've collaborated with, just to give you sort of an idea of like, you know how we go about these things, because it can be really intimidating to start working on creating your own rituals or creating group rituals. And I think a lot of us, I know that when I was starting out, first time, I went to headquarters to do a ritual. That was the black mass of 2017. And it was, I had like three days to prepare. And I didn't know what I didn't know what permission I had to get from WHO and I didn't know, you know, Malcolm and Lucien are just like, yeah, just do it. And so like, I don't, you don't care, like specifically all the details. And it was like, you know, you just kind of pull it together and figure it out. And there was a lot of definitely a lot of nerves around being able to create something that was worthy of that space. But it just, I kind of tried to try to lay bare some of my insecurities and experience with creating all of these things. And just kind of like the thought process behind them and what's worked and what hasn't worked to and I spoke with some of the people that I've collaborated with, either on the ritual for the headquarters, or also for the one big ritual. We didn't Detroit in December, just to get other people's perspective, too. So it's not just me talking. Yeah, yeah.

Stephen Bradford Long 43:21 Yeah. So speaking of that, so that that ritual that you just that you just described the you will go trilogy. I I think that was one of my favorite parts of the book, because it's so the the you'll go trilogy was like this, this series of three rituals between three different cities, right? No, yeah. It wasn't two or three different. Oh, yeah. Grand Rapids, Lansing, and Detroit, Lansing, and Detroit. Yeah, yeah. So So these three cities and each one having a different ritual that needed to be prepared. And like the the work that the deliberate and mindful kind of ritual work that was put into preparation for each of these rituals in these three different cities and you like, take us on this journey through these three different rituals and like, the emotional catharsis through the whole process of it, I thought it was that was just gorgeous. That was really beautiful. It was like, cathartic, just reading about it. And so I also loved the black masses. And I what I what I found so exciting about them was just walking away from the black masses feeling like there is so much potential here for new and interesting and exciting ritual in community. And feeling like we've only touched the tip of the iceberg of what's possible for satanic ritual. And that was really, really exciting for me just feeling like there is so much potential for what's ahead of us as a community when it comes to the kinds of rituals that we can develop. It's like it's this totally new, fertile ground.

Shiva Honey 45:16 Yeah, absolutely. That's what I feel about this as well. And I think you were mentioning this, when we first began speaking about, you know, us being in the, sort of the precipice of a new religion. And I think, you know, it's easy, especially when you're, when you're in a chapter or you're, you're doing a lot of the on the grounds work. And, you know, things can be difficult, and things can be challenging, and things can be tedious. But what I always try to remind people of when we're in the midst of doing this work is that we are creating something completely new and different. And I think that is really, really important and the opportunity there to just try to tread new ground. And to be able to, you know, develop and imagine something totally new and different is huge. The ability to to just create a new path for folks. You know, that's, that's, that's the unique, that's a unique opportunity and life experience to have. Yeah, so it's really cool. I

Stephen Bradford Long 46:12 agree. I totally agree. Well, like one of the masses, and I'll go ahead and put this out here out there I was, I was one of the masses that immediately came to mind. So I wrote an article a while ago called Satan in the void. Where, you know, a Christian once asked me, a Christian friend asked me, so your Satanism isn't really about Satan is it? And I was like, well, in a way, it's very much about Satan. I wouldn't call it Satanism if it wasn't about Satan, you know, if that's the figure of Satan wasn't at the heart of it. But in a way, he's right, which is, I feel like Satan, my Satan is a guide, he isn't a god, he's a guide. He's a who models a posture towards the universe. And that posture is one of humility and radical agnosticism. Before what I you know, what I like to call the void, not not void, as in, you know, nihilism. But void is in a void of knowledge, a void of knowing, you know, just standing before the universe and, and looking at it almost unbearable mystery. And that's what my Satanism is really about. It's about rejecting false narrative structures that try to impose on the void. And, and thinking, you know, wouldn't it be interesting to write a mass about that, and, you know, like, incorporate quotes from soft from Carl Sagan or something? You know, it's that was, that was one of like, many different ideas of, of potential directions that I personally could go in with my own ritual. Quick, so a question about the black mass, because this is a question that I get from actually a lot of people. For you as a former Christian, what does the black mass mean to you, especially destroying the Eucharist or destroying the wafer?

Shiva Honey 48:13 I think, see, this is the thing. And this is why I've changed the black mask quite a bit from like the LaVeyan version, or kind of what was traditionally done, I think, because maybe because I didn't grow up Catholic specifically, that whole aspect of the mass at that mass is actually my least favorite mass, the first one that we did in 2017, where we pulled because I didn't know what was possible, or what I was supposed to be doing. I was like, well just take, you know, the group that was preparing the maths previous to me, we're basically taking, you know, in inverting some aspects of, ironically, the lovies, black mass. And, you know, I felt that that was more of a performance then up something I had, like a lot of personal investment in. And I think that, you know, maybe that has something to do too, with the shift between living and Satanism. And what I would call like this more modern sort of practice, especially with satanic rituals that I think a lot of people were reacting to, specifically Catholicism that were in that group and for me, it was just it didn't mean as much like even though I took a lot of Latin out of the the first mass that we did, because I'm like, no one's going to understand what we're saying. And we're not going to know how to pronounce things like we were also preparing it in three days like so it's like we have to be able to pull this off and Penny Lane from you know, Hail Satan, the director for Hail Satan and her crew were all there recording it. And I'm like, we have to make this look good. And just get this do this thing without it being overly complicated. So for me, it was for me it was more just play and it was more of a performance than it was like something I was like super personally invested in for me it was more of something that I was hoping would impact people more from a shock value standpoint, then kind of like a rock and roll show standpoint. And then it was from like, I think people are gonna come here and feel like, you know, spiritually or like emotionally move, which happens with the later mass and on baptism that I ended up doing it HQ. So for me, it wasn't I did not feel that much of a connection to it honestly, I felt like it was more somebody else's work that I was just kind of, I was almost doing like a reenactment of some some sort of historical thing, you know, that it didn't have a lot of sure that I didn't have a lot of connection with I suppose.

Stephen Bradford Long 50:27 Hmm, that's, that's really, really cool. I Yeah. And I could see that progression in the book, and you talk about that progression in the book of going from something that was purely performative to something that was much more interactive and cathartic. And, you know, I, I think that the reason I bring up the the Eucharist issue or the, you know, the, the destroying of the, the body of Christ, I think that that's really important for a lot of people, because a lot of people have been abused by that symbol. You know, I've, I have personally heard stories of, I mean, trigger warning for anyone with a history of sexual abuse. But I've, you know, I've heard horrible stories about, you know, someone being abused by a Catholic priest, and then them. And then immediately after the rape, being blessed by the Eucharist, you know, him touching the Eucharist, to her private parts, to her genitals to like, absolve her or some, you know, some weird distorted thing and so that that symbol has been a, that that symbol of the Eucharist has been such an evil and powerful symbol for so many people. And so that the act of destroying it, like they do in LA boss, you know, the, which was like the, the original prototype for the black mass, I think, or the maybe not, but but la Bas, by Holzman's were, you know, at the very end of that novel, that's the famous black mass where, you know, they they destroy the the Eucharist and whatnot. But I guess my perspective, is, I still want to consume that wafer, I still want to eat it, because to me, for me personally, Satanism rejects false binaries. So I want to be the Baphomet in and of myself is like, I want to contain Satan and Jesus simultaneously. That, to me, is incredibly satanic. And, and I think that the awesome part about being a Satanist is that you can all be united and still have very different metaphysics of how, you know, we interpret these symbols.

Shiva Honey 53:01 Yeah, definitely, like you said, there's just so much opportunity to to just kind of reinvent and mold things to whatever your personal needs are, even in a group ritual setting, you know, it's just like, you can really, you can bring in elements that are personal to you. So like the baptism, for instance, that one, and that one to me was more of a rejection of kind of like the what I grew up with, I suppose, than anything else, the one that I did at headquarters that's in the book, just because, for me, I think just, I started crying. I did this ritual a couple times, I did it once for the public. And then I did it once privately for some of the inner kind of inner circle TST, folks, but I the words that I put into that ritual, and just this, this idea about us being perfect, and like rejecting sort of Discworld and the threats of hell that people have thrown at us and a lot of things that had been said to me as the kid and as an adolescent, and as an adult to, you know, just kind of like throwing that back in people's faces and going through the physical ritual of actually like finding people and having them wear masks and throwing away things like having them thoughtfully throw away things, they no longer want to keep that That, to me was probably the most personal or effect, affected ritual that I've ever written or, you know, taking part in basically. And also people, people like lost their minds during that ritual and the last black mass to that we did, which I can tell you why I think that is in a few minutes,

Stephen Bradford Long 54:24 or lost their minds in a positive and a positive way. Yeah,

Shiva Honey 54:27 everybody was crying. Everybody was like breaking down, having these really cathartic experiences, especially with the and baptism. It was really, really powerful to witness and be a part of, and seem to resonate with people quite a bit. But yeah, that one for me was the most the most that was the most kind of like, connected, I think, to those sorts of triggers and and the damage, you know, from all those years. Absolutely.

Stephen Bradford Long 54:54 Yeah. And you know, when I look back at it My life in the church. And, and the immense power that I fell within these various Christian rituals and kind of these altered states of consciousness, and all of these, you know, really powerful, powerful experiences, many of which were abusive towards me as a gay person, or just as a person, period. And then some that weren't. But looking back on that realizing those events actually happened. And they happened because of the psychological power of ritual. Right. And so, um, I think that, and, you know, ritual has been such an important part of human development and human community, for, I mean, 1000s and 1000s of years, you know, we've we've been doing ritual for eons. And I think there's this temptation to, when we become atheists, you know, when we become enlightened atheists to just look at all of that, to look at those powerful experiences and say, Oh, that's too damaging, or that's irrational. And I really grieve for that. Really, because it's I because I think that while the while ritual can be used to really, really harm people. These altered states of consciousness are also some of the most beautiful and transformative experiences that we can have.

Shiva Honey 56:42 Yeah, absolutely. I agree. 100%. And I think it's, I think it's, you know, we're doing ourselves a real disservice if we give these beautiful aspects of religion like ritual to just, you know, these lunatics that really we're giving people

Stephen Bradford Long 56:57 we're giving away, we're giving, and we're giving them more power when we do exactly because, yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, I was talking to Lucien about this when he came onto my show several weeks ago, like, I feel like I was trapped in, in theism for so long, because I felt like I had to give up being a religious person in order to be a theists, or in order to be a non theist. And I, and I am actually really bitter about that, that I didn't feel like I, you know, because I looked at the atheist world, and I really admired a lot of them. And I really liked a lot of them. But I was just like, but I, I just can't live my life without ritual without religious altered states of consciousness. I just can't do that. I need religion in my life. For whatever reason, if you know, I know, a lot of atheists are like, that makes you weak. You're you know, but whatever. I don't care if it is a weakness or not at this point. I don't care. Yeah.

Shiva Honey 57:56 And it's like you saying that makes you an asshole. So there we are, you know what I mean? Exactly.

Stephen Bradford Long 58:01 Yeah. And so when we when we give up ritual, when we as non theist relinquish ritual, and just let the lunatics have it, what we're also actually doing is limiting the number of people who can experience it healthily. And what we're doing and we're limiting the number of, of people who can feel free to be religious non theists, you know,

Shiva Honey 58:27 yeah, and, I mean, now, we know, I mean, the science and we're only scratching the surface of the science of ritual right now, you know, and I included a lot of those sources in my book, and it's continuing, it's a continuing growing field of study. But we're, we're limiting ourselves, not only as a religion, for a way to kind of bring our community together and support each other, but we're limiting ourselves also for these, like, you know, these things that people have used for centuries independently as like, ways to psychologically deal with cope with become better and, and know ourselves more. And I think that's a real disservice to all of us. The other thing that came to mind, too, when you were talking is just that, like, you know, of course, a lot of us are coming from, from these really fucked up religious experiences, having that baggage, but also just the satanists in general, a lot of us haven't had a lot of experience, communally. Having support having support of a community and when I think about group rituals in the satanic community, I think of what a beautiful way it is to show our support for each other in a world that rejects a lot of us for various reasons, you know, and why should we let somebody take that away from us, you know, why should we take this, this way to affirm ourselves and when nobody else has, why should we take this away from from us, you know,

Stephen Bradford Long 59:38 yeah, totally agree. And also an important caveat, if ritual is just not your thing, and you know, we all we are diverse people, neurologically, we're, you know, we're wired differently, literally, we have different brains. And so if you're listening to this and just being like, Well, I'm a Satanist. But I just do not get this that is okay. You are told you're still 100% Welcome and still 100% a Satanist. And you are valid. Yeah. And you know, like, I mean, we've, I grew up Presbyterian. And there, I've met some stone cold Presbyterians who just do not have an ounce of ritual or ecstatic religious experience inside of them. And so religion just manifests itself in a lot of ways. Yeah, absolutely. For people who are interested in starting in maybe exploring more of a ritual practice, what would you recommend?

Shiva Honey 1:00:41 I would recommend that you have answered this question earlier today, I think that the thing that I would recommend is to explore as many avenues as possible to get your inspiration from a lot of different sources, to be wary of anybody who tells you there's one right way to do something and distress those sources immediately. And to just I would say, the first step for me, when I was when I was developing a practice was just to understand what my needs were just that act in itself, that's always been the center of my ritual. But you know, just just, it's an invitation for you to be really intimate with yourself in a world that, you know, I think, really discourages that in a lot of ways. You know, in a capitalist society in a, in a world that wants us to focus on what other people want for us, just just, you know, ask yourself what you need and, and just let yourself explore from there.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:01:37 Absolutely. Yeah. And we'll on Twitter, Willer clowns. He is the co host of my fellow rock candy podcast, common creatives. He's also a Satanist, he asks on Twitter, is, is there a good introductory ritual practice you'd recommend for those of us who find ritual harder to engage with?

Shiva Honey 1:02:04 Sure, I would say I like the site, that ritual from my book, but basically, basically, it's a ritual kind of around vision boarding, I probably besides Taro, all the rituals I use, that is probably the one that's most common, because I think it's like very, very tangible and goal focused, goal oriented. So just to give you a brief background of the site is basically, I say, it's like a ritual to see the future. But really, it's a ritual to kind of, again, understand what your desires are, and put them on paper or, you know, communicate them in whatever way makes the most sense to you and can kind of program your brain to be committed and open to what you need. But that That, to me is a really good one, that one, you just kind of sit with yourself, and try to just give yourself some space and time to understand what you want to accomplish. So it can be something like along the lines of, you know, personal accomplishments, professional accomplishments, maybe it has to do with healing, just bring forth bring forth in the front of your mind, whatever it is that you are, what you need, again, what you desire. And then to in this particular ritual, I suggest, you know, getting paper or like, a board and actually, you know, writing down words drawing pictures, there's one that I found really effective that I do a lot, which is to, to do do one sort of vision board that is like 10 years in the future, five years in the future, and then one that is like more proximal, so like a year out. But that gives you the freedom to just really start thinking about what you would like to have in your life, you know, from a more fantastical point of view, and then what you can do in the immediate to just kind of work your way to that point. So it's from somebody who is type A, and you know, works a lot in long, logical steps. That one makes a lot of sense to me. And I think it can also resonate with people that are maybe a little bit more scared to delve in. And, you know, unsure of what to do, because that one's pretty practical. So that's a nice one, I think, to be able to kind of just focus your energy and start to understand, understand what you want.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:04:05 Yeah, I think that's great. And that ritual is in your book, and people can find your book on Amazon actually go buy it directly from the serpentine a website. So then that money is going directly to Shiva and not through the Jake's antic disgusting Corporation. That is, that is Amazon. Here's another question. That's kind of fun. From here you have so often do you have time for another question? By the way? Okay.

Shiva Honey 1:04:33 Oh, yeah, I'm flexible. Okay, so

Stephen Bradford Long 1:04:35 Harry, hoof clop in we love you, Harry. We love you. Over there in Colorado, what would you what would be the most magnificent over the top satanic funeral she can think of?

Shiva Honey 1:04:50 Oh my god. Great question. Someone. Someone just wrote me because they lost somebody recently due to the pandemic and I sent them the memento mori ritual. And I actually think I might start writing quite a bit more on this topic specifically grief rituals around grief and dying, but oh, it would have to be like the like, I can't think of what it's called off top my head right now but like New Orleans style, probably something along those lines, man but really if it were to be like the best the biggest there'd have to be like, if it were me oh, there have to be like tons of music live music absolutely probably like some some, like a lot of food. Probably some sort of like, sex workers around or like something to do with that. I don't know, just like the best part you could ever imagine. Just like, you know, people being able to like, really let themselves go and just, you know, celebrate the short time that we are on earth basically celebrate life. 100% Yeah, bring it all in, you know?

Stephen Bradford Long 1:05:57 Absolutely. Yeah. It makes me think of Hunter S Thompson's funeral where he had his ashes blasted out of a gigantic cannon in the shape of a fist while playing Mr. Tambourine Man, bye, bye Bob Dylan. I'm like, that is my kind of funeral.

Shiva Honey 1:06:17 So funny. You mentioned him too, because somebody asked me earlier who the thinkers are that have influenced me a lot and I wasn't really prepared. It's kind of a complicated question for me, but I was going through my library and I was just like, Hunter Thompson was the person I was reading right before I became a Satanist. He's euros and like, I love so much.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:06:35 I love him. I love him so much like girl we need to we need to get together sometimes. And just talk about Hunter S. Thompson. Yes. Yeah, no Hunter S. Thompson, Oscar Wilde and Ray Bradbury were like my three really big influences in high school. Excellent. So one more question. John Lee on Twitter asks, When is the sequel coming out? Oh,

Shiva Honey 1:07:00 what is the sequel? Oh, my God. Yeah, I'm trying to figure out what I've got a couple of ideas for additional books, actually. So Grand Prix transparency. Like I said, before, just this book really only took like, let me think of how many months and maybe took like four or five months to write. But it was because I'd done so much work. On the other side, I, it was actually a real pleasure to write this book. It wasn't I'm used to. So I have like a graduate degree. And I'm used to doing academic writing or Lightyear to clean I'm writing for corporations. My undergraduate was in political science and international studies and my master's was in public administration. So hence, you know, the National Council trying to pull TSD together from an organizational standpoint when I was involved, but but yeah, I'm sorry, I just lost my train of thought there.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:07:44 Oh, so sorry. Writing, it was a pleasure. Oh, yeah. So sorry, I derailed it was

Shiva Honey 1:07:50 no, no, it's all good. It was like non academic for me. So it was just, it was just kind of like writing about my life in a way that was like, felt very natural. So actually, I've just finished up I've been had a really busy as we all have, and traumatic couple months here, but um, I just finished sending out some of the last books I have, I still have to send out my completely signed books, my from Indiegogo, the ones that have to be signed by Lucien and Lex, because we can't see each other to get them signed until this is all over with, and we're all quarantining pretty hard, so, but I just finished sending out like five over 500 packages. So what I'm going to do next week is sit down and start writing more for my Patreon, and then working on a couple of book ideas, too. So I definitely do want to do a follow up or several to this. I really had a great time writing it. And the response I've gotten is so far above and beyond what I had expected. It's incredible. I had no idea I knew from the rituals, identity HQ that there was interest, but I had no idea how much people really wanted to read this. And like the reviews that people have given, I've been like really generous and kind. And it seems to be affecting people in a really positive way. So I just want to keep at it. I'm, I'm just riding the wave, you know, great. And it's good. I'm also working on music for the book, too. So I started writing music to accompany to the personal solo rituals. So I'm going to release that eventually. And I'm working on satanic planet.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:09:13 You're also a member of satanic planet. Yeah,

Shiva Honey 1:09:17 I think like one of those like, you know, I'm affiliated. So yeah, how that all works, but yeah, some like background vocals. And I was supposed to go on, like on baptize people with them before the pandemic, but you know,

Stephen Bradford Long 1:09:30 it is very good. That's awesome. All right. Well, for people who want to find you and find your work, where can they do that?

Shiva Honey 1:09:40 Yeah, if you go on serpentina.com. You can learn more about my book, pick up a copy. And I've also got some additional writing for myself and some of my collaborators on that. And I just started up a Patreon as well. So that's under Shiva, honey, and that's where I'm really trying to get us all together. Us being those folks that are rich. So practitioners and want to kind of grow and share and do some cool work. So I'm also on the socials, just search Shiva honey and aside from our actual honey company, I think I usually pop up so

Stephen Bradford Long 1:10:14 fantastic. All right. Well it has been such a pleasure talking to you and hopefully we can do this again soon.

Shiva Honey 1:10:20 I would love to thank you so much for having me. This has been awesome.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:10:23 It's been a pleasure. All right, well, that is it for this show. The music is by the jelly rocks, and eleventy seven, you can find their albums on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you listen to music. The artwork is by Rama Krishna Das. This is a rock candy podcast. For more shows like this one go to rock candy recordings.com We have some amazing shows there. Covering pop culture and music and trans issues. LGBT Bill biblical scholarship, religion, climate change all kinds of amazing stuff. So check out Bible bash, bubble and squeak common creatives eleventy life and we have so many more shows coming on the way go to rock candy recordings.com to find all those other shows. Also, if you love my work and you want to support it, but also if you enjoy the other stuff that I'm involved with, if you saw our appearance at Rocky or if you saw rock candies appearance at Wild Goose Festival last year, if you liked our big Christmas party in Greenville, South Carolina, if if you'd like the other shows that I'm involved with, and Please support my Patreon that is the best way to support all the work that I'm involved with. And as always, this show is written, produced and edited by me Steven Bradford long and hail satan. We'll see you next week.