Podcasts/PoliteConversations-Ep16

Polite Conversations Ep. 16 - Halloween Special with Lucien Greaves of The Satanic Temple
Oct 31, 2016 00:38
For this episode, the co founder of The Satanic Temple returns to the show for a discussion about offensive halloween costumes, cultural appropriation, whether pumpkins have anything to do with white privilege...Satanic cultural identity, conspiracy theory culture in america vs. muslim world (even though, sadly, anti semitic conspiracy theories are common place among muslims i haven't come across an 'infowars' type conspiracy *culture*....)
https://pod.casts.io/podcasts/polite-conversations/episodes/episode-16-halloween-special-with-lucien-greaves-of-the-satanic-temple

Transcript

[WIP]

Unknown Speaker 0:00 This end of October, I wanted to honor my absolute favorite holiday by doing a Halloween episode. For those who don't know, I'm rather obsessed with Halloween and All Things spooky year round pretty much, not just in October. However, it is nice to have a time where I can just let that freak flag fly high and proud and not stand out so much. Even though I grew up in Saudi Arabia, the compound for foreigners I grew up in celebrated Halloween, and in a pretty big way too. We had a couple of houses that even went all out with motorized decorations and everything. I mean, Halloween decorations are pretty rare in Saudi as it is, so I was pretty fortunate to have access to Halloween culture at all. One of my happiest childhood memories is my mom throwing a kick ass Halloween party for my school friends. She put in a lot of effort to she dressed up as a witch and came in holding skin grapes and boiled spaghetti, eyeballs, and vans Of course, all to the delighted shrieks of a bunch of 10 year old kids. Anyway, I wanted to have this discussion simply to explore some of the questions in my mind. Now I know there are no black and white answers to a lot of things, but just having a conversation helps. Does the cultural appropriation outrage have merit? Is the outrage over offensive costumes proportionate? And is the outrage to the outrage to such things proportionate. Throughout my teens and early 20s. Especially in uni I dressed pretty hardcore goth. And I remember getting extremely annoyed when everyone on my floor would come to my dorm room to ask if they could borrow a dog collar or corset for their Halloween costume. This is how I dress every day for fuck sake. These are my clothes. They're not a Halloween costume, I think to myself. So I mean, I can understand when people are annoyed by others treating their everyday clothes or national outfit as a costume. annoyance and eye rolls I totally get. The outraged shit show that results from these things is definitely way too much though. college professors have had their careers impacted by such stuff. So that's definitely not cool. And I do think that learning how to be offended is an important part of becoming an adult. Coming from the Muslim world. Believe me, I've seen and heard too many awful instances of what happens when people cannot handle offense. However, I don't approve of the other anti PC extreme either. Where everything is done with the intent of pissing people off and shitting on their cultures, nationalities shitting on religions, I can get behind harmful aspects of cultures too. But harmless parts of cultures like clothing and food and accessories. No. So when Miley INNOPOLIS wants to go across campuses wearing a native headdress, he's an asshole. And I really just think it's a mirror image of the absurdity. He's mocking on the left, he's got nothing of value to add. And worse, he often tends to dehumanize people however when you give him the over the top infuriated reaction he wants, you're doing nothing but helping him strengthen his brand and increase his popularity. There's no need to fuel them like that. If we could just learn to disagree and learn to be offended, mature early, Milo would be out of business. Also, there are degrees to the offensiveness of costumes that are lost in this blind outrage. blackface and Nazi outfits are obviously way worse than a sombrero, in my opinion. And when we group everything together, as blanketly unbearably offensive, then we really lose out on important distinctions and people's intent and varying degrees of awfulness. This trend towards forbidding certain costumes is an authoritarian one. We've got to let people make mistakes, and learn from them. This is how we move forward. And this, of course, doesn't apply to the obvious No, I don't think a KKK costume is appropriate anywhere. But we've succeeded in making it socially unacceptable enough that it often doesn't come up. I'm just not sure that Aladdin matches up in offensiveness. So let's employ nuance and critical thinking when it comes to these things. Sometimes the outrage is coming from a justifiable place but it's just taken too far. proportionality is key in all things in opposing stifling political correctness to never go the alt right route with all that said, Here's the episode make sure that that program doesn't contain controversial subjects. And you're not impolite to people that oh definitely not dad. You know me I'm never ever controversial, or

Unknown Speaker 5:23 Okay. Welcome to Conversations with your lovable never piss anyone off never been banned from Facebook or YouTube never been sabotaged or censored for politely expressing a difference of opinion. Ex Muslim host Ina, keeping it non controversial

Unknown Speaker 5:47 Welcome to the polite conversations Halloween special episode 16 is about to happen with my favorite religious leader returning to the show Lucian grieves from the Satanic Temple is here. Hi, Lucian. Hello. And I mean who better to discuss Halloween and spooky things with Hey, like I couldn't think of a better guest for today's show.

Unknown Speaker 6:09 I don't know I probably could but I I deal with me all the time.

Unknown Speaker 6:14 Okay, so let's begin with the most frightening topic I have on my list. I read this scholarly paper. Well, I didn't read the entire paper to be honest. I read some articles about it. And it's called the perilous whiteness of pumpkins. Did you hear about this?

Unknown Speaker 6:30 No. Please tell me all about it.

Unknown Speaker 6:33 So this is how the paper begins. It's like peer reviewed proper scholarly paper and it starts off saying this article examines the symbolic whiteness associated with pumpkins in the contemporary us, Starbucks Pumpkin Spice Latte, a widely circulated essay and McSweeney's on decorative gourd season. pumpkins and aspirational lifestyle magazines, and the reality television show pumpkin chunk, provide entry points into the whiteness pumpkin connections. Such analysis illuminates how class gender plays and especially race are employed in the popular media and marketing of food and flavor. It suggests a complicated interplay among food, leisure, labor, nostalgia and race. I failed

Unknown Speaker 7:25 to see the connection between pumpkin spice and the pumpkin Chunkin. Is this supposed to be a commentary on pumpkin spice permeating everything and conspicuous consumption and it's talking

Unknown Speaker 7:40 about the whiteness, pumpkin, whiteness, pumpkin connections about how all these things are indicative of white privilege? Now, I mean, I have a bunch of decorative gourds in my house right now. And I can assure you that I'm not white. I mean, I enjoy pumpkins and pumpkin flavored stuff mildly. I don't know, what's a white about it. They also talked about how they're creating these white pumpkins. They're genetically modifying them or whatever. And they look really cool. Like I've been seeing them around. I was just admiring them the other day, and they're supposed to be some connection with that, too. Like how that's kind of racist? I don't know. I don't know where this stuff is. I

Unknown Speaker 8:22 think it is possible to appreciate pumpkins and Jack O' Lanterns without marginalizing somebody else.

Unknown Speaker 8:29 Right. I mean, maybe Donald Trump, but

Unknown Speaker 8:34 might feel as orange ironically. Exactly. So

Unknown Speaker 8:37 that's why he might be offended by

Unknown Speaker 8:41 I'm not Yeah, I'm not not exactly sure. But you know, this, this whole thing about peer review, it isn't all it's supposed to be there's has to be a million journals by now. And sometimes Peer review means nothing more than people in a similar field, read it and agreed with it.

Unknown Speaker 8:59 Right? I mean, and then sometimes stuff like this is blown out of proportion to right, where it's like one obscure person saying that the study of glaciers is misogynistic. I don't know. I remember reading that somewhere. And then it becomes like this right wing propaganda anti left tool as well that the left has lost its mind and they think everything is sexist, and everything is racist. Therefore nothing is sexist, and nothing is racist and caring about that just means you're a cook.

Unknown Speaker 9:28 Right? Well, that's that's the danger of going too far and becoming a satire of yourself, then you become indicative of the entire of the entire dialogue to those who want to dismiss the dialogue. Right.

Unknown Speaker 9:41 And I see that we're we're kind of experiencing that in a big way, especially in the I guess, online atheist community. There's a lot of these anti PC, anti Regressive Left voices that are becoming so popular, but they're really just a mirror image of what Like they oppose, right? Their feelings are so easily hurt if you talk about white men, or they want to tread softly, but with different types of people, so they want to tread softly with racists or sexist. Have you noticed that around?

Unknown Speaker 10:16 Yeah. And it's a real difficult thing to talk about, because it's the middle ground seems so difficult for people to maintain. And I'm not one for the middle ground just for the middle ground sake. But when you have dueling sides of the of the spectrum that are equally insane, after a certain point, the conversation it gets very depressing to try to engage in the conversation with any honesty at all. And of course, we we view that on the question of Islam and of various other things in politics. Now, it's just, it's very depressing. But I do see how, how it feeds itself. People who feel very alienated by a group that wrongly, witch hunts, accuses them of upholding views that they don't whether they're being called racist or misogynist, for a semantic faux pas, or anything else, then feel embraced by the other side of the argument that isn't exactly reasonable, but at least treated them politely only for being pilloried by their enemy. And I've seen that happen before I was at a conference where, where the guy who filmed the Missouri University protests, Mark Sher Becker, he was talking about how he was filming this safe space, and an administrator from the school came and assaulted him. And he was talking about the First Amendment and journalist freedom and how he was actually on side. On most of the issues of the protesters. It was a Black Lives Matter protest. But they had set up us what they call the safe space in a public area. And he was trying to explain that this was a public area, and that, you know, he should film in that it really doesn't help protesters or activists to demand that the cameras be off at any given time, that's actually quite a quite a backwards way of thinking. In any case, there were people complaining that there wasn't a person of color on the stage to counter counterbalances points, as though any person of color would do as though there's a monolithic voice right or full of color, and that they would all you know, you could pick anyone out of the crowd and they would have the valid counterpoint to what he was saying,

Unknown Speaker 12:56 even though humanizing in a way, right, like to people of color to assume that you just pick anyone. And

Unknown Speaker 13:04 yeah, sometimes I think this kind of coddling attitude is more one of those who have really had no interaction with people of color. And they do have this, this very bizarre notion that it is a monolithic voice.

Unknown Speaker 13:18 Yeah, we have to deal with that, like with the Islam topic all the time, right? We're, especially as ex Muslims, people are always trying to tell me like, how to think about my own culture. And well, meaning people, they think that I shouldn't criticize things that I grew up with, when they're free to do the same for their culture, you know, and they just don't realize how offensive that is like, no, no, no, it jobs are totally empowering and beautiful and feminist and diverse. And you should accept that. Like, it's just part of the culture. It's so exotic and like, no, they're actually used to keep women down.

Unknown Speaker 13:57 Well, I have no love for the Catholic culture. But I do see that double standard where you in the United States, you are free to criticize the Catholic sets as you will as you should be. But if if but yes, if somebody who grew up in the Muslim culture is to insult or criticize the, the practices of Muslim culture, then that's a different story. You know, you can make jokes at will about child rape within Catholic Catholic culture, but it seems like if it were some kind of outside group, something that was less prevalent in the United States that would then be considered as some kind of attack upon a culture and you can't criticize the Catholics for raping children because that's that's part of their yeah, that's,

Unknown Speaker 14:51 that's what it boils down to. And it's so harmful because I mean, I speak to a couple people and one on this podcast to where She went to the authorities she was being abused at home. But her school sent her back thinking that oh, well, you know, she's being beaten or whatever. Like, it's just part of their culture. Like we can't get involved in this. And I mean, children suffer because of it. So it's just a terrible attitude to have. But on the other

Unknown Speaker 15:19 table attitude, but it is oddly, it's, it's oddly, infantilizing and racist in its own right. Because people follow these practices when they legitimize them as being some kind of cultural heritage, and the criticism against them is considered racist. It almost seems as though you're saying, Well, you can't expect anything more from these people. Exactly. This is fine. This is a genetic defect of theirs or something like this is this is a racial proclivity of theirs to act this way to behave in this manner

Unknown Speaker 15:53 to treat women less or whatever. Yeah, right. Right.

Unknown Speaker 15:57 We can't expect anything different. So we need to, to work with them in this way.

Unknown Speaker 16:02 And that's the irony of like feminists defending misogynistic Islamic practices and turning on dissenters from Muslim cultures who want to call them out. They'll host these slot walks and be anti slut shaming when it comes to Western culture. But if we try to talk about slut shaming within our culture, which is pretty extreme, where silence time and time again, I've been bumped off of radio panels, once they've heard my views. So I mean, it's kind of sucks how that works out.

Unknown Speaker 16:37 Yeah, well, in sheer Becker's case, the the conference I was at there, there were a preponderance of people willing to willing to completely pillory him in in dubbed him a racist merely for having had the audacity to stand up on the stage and speak about his experience about being attacked by a white administrator at his school for filming in this safe space, defying this this SafeSpace idea where media wasn't allowed, even on the outskirts of their encampment, and it just seems so very wrong to me, one could argue that he was right, or he was wrong in his assessment of whether he had the right. Yeah, legalistically. He did, but they could question the the ethics of that. But I didn't see that what he had done was it was a commentary on how he felt on on race at all. And this was exactly what he was trying to explain. But, you know, he was obviously very deeply disturbed by this, I filmed a video where he was trying to explain where he was coming from, and he was invited up on stage to talk about this, and he was crying. And then later on, I could see that he was more and more embraced by the right wing. And we welcome that. I think he I think he did for a time. Oh, well, I know he did for a time. I think it's kind of he's kind of leveled off and come back to reason now. But, but that's how you can see that kind of thing happen. You can see, you know, it really doesn't help. It really doesn't help your cause to go on an internal witch hunt. And I think that's what you find, when people start trying to find the meaning behind the meaning when they start looking at pumpkins and trying or the the racist statement they're in. I think we're

Unknown Speaker 18:34 right. Like, imagine if I wanted to carve like white Jack O' Lanterns? Why, like, Should I be concerned about what my neighbors will think like, will they think I'm a brown white supremacist or so? I don't know. I shouldn't worry about that stuff. I think

Unknown Speaker 18:49 most most real people don't don't think of those kinds of things at all. It takes a certain brand of academic and humanities to come up with these types of things. Yeah, for sure. I think that I don't think that idea about pumpkins and white privilege has much staying power. In any case,

Unknown Speaker 19:05 no, probably about as much as glaciers and misogyny.

Unknown Speaker 19:10 Right, or skyscrapers and misogyny. There's a whole idea that there's these phallic structures, but what the what these theories fail to do is present an alternative. It makes a bit of rational sense that we would build upward. I don't know how it make more vaginal struck.

Unknown Speaker 19:36 Well, there was this stadium or something that was said to look like a vagina. And when people pointed that out, then then they were called sexist, or something. I mean, it's endless. How many ways this can go and you're really just a sexist or a racist if someone just doesn't agree with you, right? Well,

Unknown Speaker 19:56 this this isn't the only these aren't the only topics where this is true when you start from your conclusion and are looking for the evidence to support it, and discarding that which might disprove it. And it's really a non falsifiable claim. You really are just a conspiracy theorist. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 20:16 Yeah. And I mean, there's equal parts of these crazy left wing conspiracies and crazy right wing conspiracies, where on the one hand, I mean, I hope they're both fringes. But there's like the all heterosexual sex is rape kind of people. And then there's the Mike Cernovich. sigh can feel sound waves and date rape isn't real and poor, white men are being oppressed everywhere. Between that it's so hard, even just even on the Islam topic, it's like the left will silence you. But then the right will embrace you only to try and get you out of this country or out of the west, you know, so it's like, you don't really know where to go and how far you should go saying something like, I'll criticize something about my own culture. And then all these crazy Trump lovers will step in and pat me on the back. And I'm like, No, not you. You just want me out anyway. So

Unknown Speaker 21:15 yeah, but it sometimes it's difficult when people are saying you're right, I agree with what you say, to turn on them and say, Well, I don't agree with what where you're coming from but that that's and that's part of the degenerative spiral. I think that's how people end up in bracing, and some of that sometimes the extremes just because they felt so alienated by the other side.

Unknown Speaker 21:36 Absolutely. And then and that's how it happens on both sides, right? So people who are feeling alienated by the Western right somehow sometimes find it in them to justify the Islamic religious right and side with them. Like kind of make excuses for why people have turned to extremism and how it's Western racism that's caused us Western imperialism has caused us and lay no responsibility on the actual jihadist, but then on the right when they feel alienated by the left, they think that Western racism is caused by I guess, Islamic extremism or the left's denial and people are blaming the existence of Trump on the left, which I find really shady.

Unknown Speaker 22:23 I find this whole Trump phenomenon for very interesting I, I think this is really the ad absurdum we need to we need to show us that some people just will not be shaken in their in their loyalty to a party, regardless of who the candidate is. And it's it's amazing to me to see that the the party of the evangelical right, a Christian Right the family values people are this unshakable in their adherence to the cause that they will embrace the grabber by the pussy,

Unknown Speaker 23:01 right? This the serial adulterer, the you know, everything wrong, non Christian. Personally, I think I remember seeing a part where he was like, trying to talk about his favorite verse of the Bible, and he sounded really unsure. He had to think about it.

Unknown Speaker 23:18 Oh, yeah, he missed, he missed named it. I can't even remember which passage he was trying to. Probably everybody listening will know off the top of their head. But that was actually one reason why I wanted him to win the primary. I was far more afraid of Ted Cruz. I thought there was the, you know, Trump to me kind of Bekins the end of the GOP as we know it, in my kind of idealistic interpretation of this. Well, I hope they're right. Cruz and some of these other fellows that are genuine theocrats. Yeah. Well, Trump really has no, no genuine ties to this type of thing. But in this last debate, he really did scare me because he was talking nothing short of the overturn of Roe v. Wade. And yeah, in various other things that are, are very disturbing.

Unknown Speaker 24:07 Right? And Pence is no No sweetheart, either. Oh, Pence

Unknown Speaker 24:10 is terrible. Pence. Pence is a real shithead. And I've known this well before he was the VP candidate. He's genuinely a scary individual. But in before people think, well, the media actually did a good job with Trump because they've been openly critical of him. But we shouldn't forget that it was because of their hyper coverage of him and his entertainment value, prime to begin with, but it was really disappointing for me to see after the vice presidential debate, to hear this commentary about how how poised and presidential Pence was and Pence is really going to be the rising star in the GOP. Never mind the fact that there wasn't a word of truth coming from his mouth and the insane things he's he's done in Indiana, such as trying to pass a law for women to pay for the funerals of their of another just insane things like that. Even Chris Matthews was gushing that to you was so poised and presidential that that he was the guy to look out for in the next next election. I guess if

Unknown Speaker 25:21 they're not raging lunatics at that moment, it seems like a good thing because of Donald Trump. Maybe because he's shown us crazy have

Unknown Speaker 25:32 gone on and on an all out assault against the media personalities, he should have been ingratiating himself to, they would have treated him as a as a legitimate candidate. So I don't think we're any better off now than we were when we were when this started.

Unknown Speaker 25:50 Yeah. But back to Halloween, so offensive costumes. Now. I mean, I've seen a lot of people talk about this in a very black and white sort of way. Either it's, there's nothing offensive about any costumes ever. Or everything's offensive, and you can't do anything ever. So just like a lot of other things on the internet. It's very hard to get like a nuanced opinion on this now. I mean, I grew up in the 90s. So and in Saudi Arabia, so Halloween was I mean, actually, surprisingly, we did celebrate Halloween, where I lived in Saudi Arabia was like a little compound for foreigners. So I'm not Saudi by ethnicity. I'm Pakistani so I guess we somehow lived in this compound with a bunch of Westerners, Americans, Germans, British Canadians, so I guess it was very North American lifestyle. And Halloween was big in my compound. It was the 90s. I mean, everyone probably did the offensive. There was a lot of like natives and tribal people, or there's a lot of like, a lot of Pakistani and Indian parents would just be like, hey, put on the outfit like you were for your cousin's wedding. So we don't have to get your costume and be an Indian princess. Right. So I mean, you just can't do that stuff now, because people will freak out if you patronize the cultures, right? But we all did it. Like I don't know,

Unknown Speaker 27:22 I think with any of these things. I think we've lost sense of, of trying to gauge somebody's intentions.

Unknown Speaker 27:32 Yeah, definitely. There's no question.

Unknown Speaker 27:35 When, if, if a little girl's favorite Disney film is Pocahontas and she wants to dress like Pocahontas. I hardly think that's a racist statement. Really. It should be planted as as such to her. If somebody's dressing in blackface, you might want to ask them what their what Yeah, absolutely. Assumptions might might reasonably be a little different. But this idea of cultural appropriation really distresses me. I don't see how I think it was Steven Pinker, who tweeted and said that culture is appropriation in that intermixing culture. And that kind of CO opting of cultures, I think, is always been a very positive thing. But some of these concepts of cultural appropriation are very backwards. Dreadlocks certainly

Unknown Speaker 28:29 are Did you see that video of that kid being stopped in the university hallway and being yelled at by some girl for you know, appropriating her culture and having dreadlocks and he can't do that? Because he's white. And then if I remember correctly, I think he he told her that there were other cultures that have also had dreadlocks in the past. So which is

Unknown Speaker 28:51 true? Yeah. In very white ones that at that

Unknown Speaker 28:57 the Vikings are

Unknown Speaker 28:59 Scottish Highlanders. So it doesn't make sense. But even if that were true, I would think that kind of non segregationist hairstyle is, is a bit better. I think of this kind of scenario in which imagine you have two little girls around six years old, white and black, and you have the black girl braiding the white girl's hair into cornrows? Would it really actually be appropriate to go up to them and tell them? No, you have to realize you two are distinctly different and separate and you're not allowed to share hairstyles amongst one How is that productive? It's absolutely your segregation ism. And it's it's a completely backward way of thinking. I'm not sure who that's supposed to defend what what that's supposed to protect or how that's supposed to help. A more, a more balanced attitude.

Unknown Speaker 29:54 I actually came across someone on Twitter who was like an anti racism activist who was speaking about She did not approve of interracial relationships. And it's really shocking at this stage how they're not even slightly self aware that they sound like white supremacist when they say that and that white supremacist would be so on board with their terrible ideas.

Unknown Speaker 30:21 What was the justification for this idea that that the recession mix?

Unknown Speaker 30:26 Well, she was like, okay, different races that are not white can mix and date or whatever, but why nobody should like people of color shouldn't date white people, I guess just because I don't know. She must think they're awful or I don't know. I don't know what the justification. Yeah, it was very racist.

Unknown Speaker 30:45 Yeah. Well, that's, that's what you find at the extreme ends, you find so many commonalities. Yeah. You find the the conspiracy straight and that conspiracist left and sometimes you forget who's who who are the 911 truth eaters? And who are the birthers? You know, they're there. They're distinct different ends of the political spectrum. But the thinking seems J Yeah. Same.

Unknown Speaker 31:08 I was in a Halloween party store the other day looking for a costume and there were there were some really tasteless costumes that made me cringe. But I certainly wasn't going to go seek out counseling or, you know, I think that's the appropriate responses you cringe. And that's really all you can do. You have to let people make their own choices. Like I have a friend, a really good friend who loves to wear really, really awful Halloween costumes. I don't know why but he thinks it's funny, if nothing like blackface or Hitler or anything like that, but he grew up in Saudi Arabia. So he makes a lot of tasteless Arab jokes in his costumes, and I guess, technically, he's, it's better if, if, if anyone must do it that someone who grew up there can do it, I guess. But it's still really cringe worthy, but he's not Saudi, and he's East Asian. So when you look at him, he looks East Asian, and like he's mocking Arabs, but you don't know his history with the culture and it just looks really bad. It's really tastes tasteless.

Unknown Speaker 32:20 Well, if you're if you're not in drag or wearing something satanic, I'm offended. I know, right? I mean, that's what Halloween is about.

Unknown Speaker 32:29 Do you do go and drag sometimes on Halloween?

Unknown Speaker 32:33 No, but always satanic.

Unknown Speaker 32:35 Okay, well, that's good. At least our site you should do like drag satanic someday.

Unknown Speaker 32:40 It needs to be something homicide or something. Something demonic, something horrific.

Unknown Speaker 32:47 I mean, I've done like, like really offensive non outfits before, I guess. So I've done really offensive outfits as well. And I'm not ashamed of that. My non outfits were great. But I think that they would piss a lot of people off I had a friend who did a pope, Pope wearing a dildo, I don't strap on. Stuff like that. I think it's great, of course, depends on who you are and what your political and religious views are. But imagine doing like a Muhammad costume you probably be killed.

Unknown Speaker 33:21 People need a day like that, though. You'd be surprised at how earlier Christmas celebrations were a lot like that where you was an overturning of the norms and people would dress in drag or, or make a mockery of figures of authority, burn effigies, that type of thing. The dominant culture tried to completely co opt these things in that eventually happened with Christmas. Halloween is still contentious. You know, even though it's been diluted to this form, where it's it's, of course rather commercialized, and parents take their children out and collect candy. But it's still far too far too demonic for some of the real zealots.

Unknown Speaker 34:09 Yeah, for sure. And I think my parents neighbors were really, really Christian. And they had grown up in Canada their whole life. They saw us one time like we're at my parents house, and we're carving pumpkins. And they're like, I've never seen that being done before. And I'm like, really? Yeah, no, my parents won't allow you know, my parents wouldn't allow us to celebrate Halloween it just made me really sad that someone's grown up here in North America their whole life and they've never seen anyone carve a pumpkin or celebrated Halloween and imagine how excluded you must feel as a child like I have a religious relative also that does not allow her kids to celebrate birthdays even or or Halloween and

Unknown Speaker 34:54 this could backfire. I'm it's a curious thing to consider now because the For decades, you've had extreme Christian groups declaring Halloween Satanic and therefore trying to drive it out of the schools and trying to to withhold people from having any celebration of Halloween. Well, we're a religious organization, self identifies as Satanist. I feel we should have the right to have our our holiday as it is and have it recognized as a religious holiday.

Unknown Speaker 35:29 I'd be so on board with that. Because then we get to take the day off, right?

Unknown Speaker 35:34 Yeah, but what's also interesting is that since I've been doing what I've been doing with the Satanic Temple, and it's been as high profile as it has been, Halloween has been less of a question. Every year, people seem less interested in the satanic Halloween celebration, is they're interested in Christmas, because that really seems to be where the culture war is at. Because

Unknown Speaker 35:58 there's a war on Christmas. Oh, yeah.

Unknown Speaker 36:00 And they're also there's, there's also this motivation to kind of satinised Christmas and bring Christmas back to these traditional roots and in bring Krampus, back to Christmas, bring Lord of Misrule, back to Christmas and bring that inversion that day long inversion of values in this discarding of the usual social norms back to Christmas again.

Unknown Speaker 36:24 Now, when you say inversion of values, what like, What do you mean? Like you're a good person, generally, from what I can tell. So do invert that. What do you mean?

Unknown Speaker 36:36 No, no, if the earlier Christmas celebrations kind of inverted the Christian paradigm? No, it was a day in which the the poor were really allowed in the houses of the rich. It was that kind of trick or treat mentality. It was a day and you know, when earlier on Halloween was a day in which the children could confront their parents in ways they hadn't before or their or their elders. And they were given that kind of latitude is that kind of lessening of restriction that loosening of boundaries for a day, where you kind of have increased the latitude in the name of fun and enjoyment? Of course,

Unknown Speaker 37:21 right? No, no, that sounds great. Going back to the costume thing. So the University of Florida issued like a statement on their website, where they talked about choosing Halloween costumes to their to their college kids, you know, and it sounds like they're talking to really little children that don't understand. The decisions that they'll be making will impact them like the pictures that they'll post on social media, I guess it's important to remind kids that yeah, if you're gonna dress up in a really awful, tasteless costume and posted on social media, your future employers could find it. So perhaps that's a lesson that they might need to learn. But they went on and they were like, you know, we encourage you to think about your choices of costumes and themes. Some Halloween costumes reinforce stereotypes of particular races, genders, cultures, or religion. Regardless of intent. These costumes can perpetuate negative stereotypes causing harm and offense to groups of people. And then they said if you are troubled by an incident that does occur, please know that there are many resources available, please take advantage of the seven day a week presence of the you matter we care program at the University of Florida by emailing bla bla bla. And there's also a 24/7 counselor in the counseling and Wellness Center available to speak by phone at and they give the phone number. So like they're offering counseling to people that are offended by Halloween costumes. I mean, that's really taken it far. I think it's really coddling the students.

Unknown Speaker 38:56 Yeah, I would think a lot of what would be said there it goes without saying that certain costumes can be offensive and other people can be offended. But I don't know if I would, I would recommend counseling. I mean, I point out to somebody that their costume looks stupid.

Unknown Speaker 39:20 I think you should be able to point out somebody at their costume looks stupid, and they shouldn't need counseling after that, or you shouldn't need counseling by seeing something that's bothered you.

Unknown Speaker 39:33 I think there's a real backward thinking from this counseling culture from counselors themselves licensed mental health professionals, and what really is good mental health practice. And this is kind of interesting because this goes back to the Satanic Panic and hoppy and harkens back to some of the concepts related to Satanism and Halloween and everything else but In the recovered memory movement, which helped motivate the Satanic Panic, people digging for repressed memories of abuse, insisting that certain certain neuroses or or psychological melees of any type were indicative of past abuse that was so traumatic that it couldn't be remembered, it couldn't be recalled because it was that painful. So they would go through these efforts to dig for dig forward those memories, through hypnosis or whatever else. And of course, what we find is that people under these conditions would confabulate what they, they were convinced by their therapist was supposed to be there. So they would come up with these narratives of, you know, if it weren't alien abduction, or past lives, it was satanic ritual abuse or other equally implausible stories. But this idea also that you need to recognize a trauma, even if you don't see it as traumatic at the time, and then kind of cultivate this trauma, recognize it, cry it out, or whatever. And that also goes to this idea that you need to let out your anger or, or recognize your sadness and cry in this idea that if you do so, you've taken that away, that you've had this kind of AB reaction, and that goes away, it turns out to not be true, you're really kind of cultivating then that mentality, and you're not doing anything to lessen it, you're actually increasing that feeling, that feeling of victimization, that feeling of trauma, it's that the research supports this idea that this isn't beneficial, that this is actually rather crippling, in backward, and that it has the the opposite effect of what it's intended to do. And I think that's, that's really the horrific part of universities putting out messages that say that you may be traumatized by the sin, rather than planting the idea that you you should be, or or, or maybe you're just on caring about these topics. You know, if you see something like this, that you must recognize that this is traumatic to you, and that you probably need to speak to a counselor as well, then you're actually developing a mindset in an environment where it legitimizes that reaction to these types of things. And, of course, as you said, there are situations where things are patently offensive, and you should they should be called out on that. But is the proper reaction to that also to relegate yourself to a victim status and go to a a counselor? Or is it to confront somebody and ask them? What were you thinking? Exactly supposed to mean? You know, have that kind of have that kind of dialogue? But no, I think that this kind of therapeutic setting that's been cultivated now from since for some time, it hasn't been revised, despite the empirical evidence is very disturbing, in in indicative, again, of just the lack of responsibility we've seen from organizations like the American Psychiatric Association and other groups that are almost wholly political by this point, and completely operating in ignorance of where the current research leads us.

Unknown Speaker 43:36 Well, also, the danger is that it fuels this, this anti PC crowd to to the extreme kind of people where they're actually coming out and saying that people of color have lesser IQ just because of their skin color isn't racist, and nothing is racist anymore, you know, and extreme misogyny like making excuses for actual rape, like people who will say that marriage is implied consent, and so you cannot have marital rape. These are the people that are being empowered from that other extreme, right? When you claim everything is racist, like pumpkin spice lattes and white pumpkins, then you're muddying the water to such a great degree where if someone actually sensible will come out and say, Well, no, this guy who is saying that black people have lower IQs and this guy who's saying that you cannot rape a woman that's married to you are actually misogynist and a racist, then then they're hard to recognize as such, because then they'll throw back at the person. Oh, well, you're just one of those leftists who think everything is racist, and everything is a misogynist. So it's become so crazy that it's hard to even see real racism for some people anymore.

Unknown Speaker 44:50 What's really distressing is how many people don't seem to recognize that there are gradations on the spectrum and that you don't necessarily follow neatly into on one side or the other, right? So, if I make a comment on one topic, somebody will make a whole series of assumptions of what I believe about other topics based on that. And I see that even recently, we went and visited the Westboro Baptist Church because I happen to have a lecture in Kansas City. And yeah, and we we showed up at the Westboro Baptist Church and brought brought a DJ with

Unknown Speaker 45:33 you guys had a dance party. I did remember seeing that something like that. Right, guys were dancing. Right

Unknown Speaker 45:38 in there. There were a couple of comments on my Facebook Fan Page expressing a criticism that I would never do such a thing outside of outside of a mosque. And the real problem right now is Islam. And I just couldn't understand that thinking I asked, I asked these commenters to tell me where exactly they believed the Westboro Baptists Islamic equivalent, what we're in the United States. And I get that kind of question all the time as well. What are we doing to combat radical Islam? And I tell these people, Islam in the United States, and we really don't have the Socratic Islam trying to impose itself in American schools or

Unknown Speaker 46:24 see now you're just upset. You've upset the Pamela galleries and Robert Spencer's of the world because they think it's a Sharia takeover, like for real bodies. They made that they've made that up. Yeah, of course, they've made that up.

Unknown Speaker 46:40 But if it were happening, you would see the Satanic Temple questioning that as well. But you just don't see that happening. And I hate you. And we really don't, in reality, see a problem of radical Islam trying to take over American politics in this idea that I, that we must, because we we go on the attack against what's admittedly an easy target, like the Westboro Baptist Church, that we're sympathetic to radical Islam.

Unknown Speaker 47:13 Don't you know, you can't, you can't think two things at the same time, like so if you're attacking Westboro Baptist Church, you clearly think that Islam is wonderful. Right? I mean,

Unknown Speaker 47:25 it's, it's distressing to see how prevalent those notions are. It's on a lesser level, you'll see, you'll see that when you make any comment against one of the one of the presidential candidates, if you say anything about either presidential candidate, the next thing you'll get is a whole other one, Terry? Yeah. About, about the faults of the other one. Yeah. And that really disturbs me, because that carries on past the election. And it really, it really sets up an environment in which the candidate or the elected official can do no wrong, because there's always something worse that has already been done by a candidate already, therefore, therefore, it's anything goes

Unknown Speaker 48:12 well, and nothing is going to be worse than ISIS anytime soon. I mean, so that is like the greatest gift to, I guess, the extremists of all other kinds, right? Because you can't criticize anything else because ISIS is going to be worse. Well, Westboro aren't beheading, you know, and I get this all the time, too. And I get called, like a stealth jihadist, or stealth Islamist because I've dared to criss criticize Christianity one day, out of like, 45 days of me focusing on Islam. But one day, I'm like, Well, you know, Christians can be assholes, too. And whoa, you clearly are so tribal and so attached to your former religion, that you're probably working for them. So I guess you must

Unknown Speaker 48:58 run into the embrace of Christianity. Or your or your with the are you with ISIS?

Unknown Speaker 49:06 Yeah. That's basically it.

Unknown Speaker 49:08 It's just frustrating.

Unknown Speaker 49:11 Oh, it's very frustrating, because then you're called like a regressive leftist, which you clearly aren't, you know, and I'm sure like people that hear this, some assholes are gonna think that you are too because why does the Satanic Temple fight Christianity and Christians? Well, you do a lot of legal battles, I think, right. And then America just so happens that you're fighting a lot of Christian theocrats that are trying to impose laws based on their religion

Unknown Speaker 49:39 there. This is something I pointed out on some of the social media when we've gotten this criticism. The Satanic Temple doesn't have a fucking army. We're not going over to the Middle East and fighting any of these battles. We're not going into the mountains of Pakistan. We were fighting. We're fighting legal battles. So when a religious group is fighting for excuse of privilege, you know, fighting against extremist terrorist groups really isn't our jurisdiction. That's not our that's not within our purview. In fact, I'm getting a little a little scared over how, like Google is kind of taking on that fight against against ISIS. And I don't know that that's really within their their business model their their business. Are you aware of this? No. What what their Yeah, there was a an article in Wired that was talking about how Google has this approach to try to convert ISIS recruits. And they're trying to find the common structure in the in the kind of search history that people who might gravitate towards ISIS have in their manufacturing the search results to kind of dissuade them, which sounds all fine and good when you're talking about ISIS. Because as you said, ISIS is the is, is a gift to some because it sets the international law.

Unknown Speaker 51:02 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But you know, you can't judge people on their on their internet searches. Because I mean, just me I write about extremism, extremists and leaving Islam. So I searched a lot of this stuff. And then I mean, are people gonna think that I'm an extremist Islam is from my internet search. So that that kind of does scare me because?

Unknown Speaker 51:24 Well, it scares me because Google is working with outside parties, and I don't I find it hard to believe that their attempts to model opinion ends with trying to dissuade ISIS.

Unknown Speaker 51:41 Yeah, I don't know if they should. I mean, like, I can see why everybody should want to try to do something if they have the power to. But sometimes, I mean, sometimes it doesn't go right, right, like Facebook, with its stupid real name policy. I guess that was meant to dissuade people from harassing other people online. But

Unknown Speaker 52:03 it was meant to to build a more accurate Mark marketing.

Unknown Speaker 52:08 Yeah, that's right. Actually, that's so true. But I mean, what it does is it really shifts on people in vulnerable positions, and people who have to be anonymous, because they're victims of abuse, or because they've left a religion that will get them killed like myself, so. Yeah, Facebook is awful.

Unknown Speaker 52:27 Oh, yeah. I hate Facebook. Yeah. Something I probably mentioned before, but it it's worth repeating. Is that despite whatever community standards Facebook claims to have, and and how hyper vigilant they are, over whether a nipple is posted in a picture, or hasn't been one fucking death threat we've gotten that Facebook has agreed to take violated their terms of service. Yeah, well, it's not a nipple. There's been outright death threats that have come in that I've reported to Facebook, and I've gotten the immediate response that this does not violate their their community standards, you can have a category for religious hate speech, and that people will post things about killing the Satanist burning the Satanist, whatever, whatever makes them happy. And you report that and somehow that doesn't, that doesn't fit within that framework. So either you have community standards, or you don't, or you're trying to uphold some kind of standards, or you're just a tool. And if Facebook could just present itself as just a tool and not not a community with standards, this would be more understandable.

Unknown Speaker 53:40 Yeah, I mean, there was a really good documentary about Facebook called Facebook is done. So I guess like how they maintain their how they really exploit people from developing countries and how they hire them. And they are paid based on how many of these reported messages that they can go through per hour. So they're literally just skimming and they gave stats in that documentary of how how few seconds, they have to go through each picture in each comment. So that's why so many just slipped by, except for the really obvious ones like nipples are, I mean, they've taken down my artwork, which wasn't even naked. So and they said they took it down for nudity. So I don't know what's going on there. But clearly, it's a very faulty system, and they don't seem to give a shit and they don't make

Unknown Speaker 54:28 it easy. They don't have the money to employ more people to kind of increase the scrutiny on claims. Yeah, cuz they're such a poor, poor Corporation. They have no money. No, though. They're pretty rich, I think. Yeah, but you're right. I think they do have remarkably few employees for the amount of revenue they generate. I'm not exactly sure what those numbers are. That might be inaccurate.

Unknown Speaker 54:55 I don't know. I mean, I I'd recommend anyone listening and if you get a chance to Watch that documentary. It's up on on YouTube too. From what I'll try to include a link on, on the show notes. But yeah, so So tell me this, I came across an article a couple of years ago about school in Canada that wanted to stop calling, calling Halloween Halloween, because it was offensive to some parents. And so they want us to call it orange and black day. And

Unknown Speaker 55:26 oh, I thought you're gonna say they're gonna try to make it All Saints Day just in All Saints Day celebration. No, the church had pulled this one before where they they wanted Halloween to be co opted into some day where you pick your favorite saint and pray all day or something that would certainly not catch on because it's there's no fun involved in it in the least.

Unknown Speaker 55:51 No, yeah, that would be like a terrible version of Halloween. So, so worn on Black Day, and my immediate same

Unknown Speaker 56:00 celebration, when when that just mean that later on orange and black day, it would be considered an offensive.

Unknown Speaker 56:07 Maybe you're Ryan? Yeah, I think you're Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 56:13 I thought I thought Canada was better about these kinds of things. I would have expected that from, say, Arkansas.

Unknown Speaker 56:20 Yeah, Canada is generally better. But we do have the occasional weird thing. creep in sometimes. I mean, we do have a blasphemy law on the books, it lies dormant, but it's still there

Unknown Speaker 56:33 in what's what's the what's the gist of it, that word or deed against to the most holy is is

Unknown Speaker 56:42 criminal and something like that.

Unknown Speaker 56:46 You know, well, you know, I actually, there was actually a warrant issued for my arrest in Mississippi. No, no back when we did what we call the pink mass. Oh, right. Yeah, where we had a protest against Westboro Baptist Church, following the Boston Marathon bombing, when they came to

Unknown Speaker 57:07 end, you had these homoerotic rituals over the grave of a

Unknown Speaker 57:13 right. And there was, there was no material damage done. The cemetery was open to the public at the time. So there was no, there, there was nothing really, really done or yours, or said that could that you'd think could be construed as a crime in actuality. But they issued a warrant. Well, this is what I, what I'm told, I know. And I've never seen a copy of this, this was something that the sheriff at the time said to the media, but that they had issued a warrant for desecration of a grave. And that was so subjective is to be essentially an anti blasphemy law. Where it by word or de, do you sometimes how in salt, this this grave area? So I assume that using vulgar words within the proximity of the grave and in no set proximity, you know, it's not within 20 feet or anything like that. At least I don't I don't think that was the case.

Unknown Speaker 58:18 But you also pull pulled out your your balls, right?

Unknown Speaker 58:22 Yeah. And I rested them on the grave, but very respectfully, today, yeah, of course, in a very tasteful manner, with nothing short of reverence. So really, it was the interpretation of whoever signed off.

Unknown Speaker 58:37 It was just an act of worship on your part. Right.

Unknown Speaker 58:41 It's bizarre, though, because I would think that with that latitude of interpretation, you could call what the Westboro Baptist Church does desecration or

Unknown Speaker 58:52 because don't they go to military funerals and stuff and chair that God hates them and that they should have died?

Unknown Speaker 58:59 Yeah, and it's all because of gays somehow.

Unknown Speaker 59:04 Yeah, but that Yeah, but they don't get shut down.

Unknown Speaker 59:08 Yeah, well, I was I originally thought, well, it might be worth just fighting this charge going back to Mississippi and, you know, make a mockery of that kind of little legal proceeding so long is the worst that could happen was was a fee, you know, but I consulted my lawyer before attempting to go back especially after having insulted the sheriff's department and in press you know, I wanted to make sure that there was no chance they could detain me Yeah. Lawyer advised against it because he said no, they could and probably would throw you in the in the can for up to a year.

Unknown Speaker 59:46 What? So you can't go back there.

Unknown Speaker 59:50 Yeah, that brings me to another story kind of off the topic, but I was at I was in Arkansas. Last week at a subcommittee hearing about our bafflement monuments to be placed next to the 10 commandments monument and I was explaining to this Subcommittee on monuments. the legitimacy of our claim and how I feel that bathmat is the best chance for the 10 commandments to be allowed to stay. Because if they put up a 10 commandments mighty minutes, it's certainly a violation of the the Establishment Clause. And if they can't demonstrate that viewpoint neutrality that the tank mammas will come down at taxpayer expense. But what happened was a documentary crew was there filming me do this subcommittee hearing because they're doing a documentary about the Satanic Temple and things were doing. And instead of wearing the microphone, the camera man decided to put the microphone under the podium so he could get any of the speakers that would come up. There was a lawyer for the 10 commandments monument speaking before I did, so the microphone was just kind of taped under the podium and it was one of those transmitting ones you know, the little box that you were a few television interviews or whatever. And so after the subcommittee hearing, they forgot to collect the microphone so it stayed under the podium from Arkansas in this in this building, noticed it later on and assumed that we had bugged them it Yeah, so part of the satanic conspiracy I guess, but the director of the documentary or the production team or whatever else they took ownership of it and said they have no we left this and it's it's you know, it's not we just forgot it is all but I guess Arkansas launched criminal investigation. The production company has gotten a defense attorney and he hasn't he hasn't seen reason exactly yet. I just feel it's it's an amusing little side story and

Unknown Speaker 1:02:00 all the trouble people get in like just associating with you huh?

Unknown Speaker 1:02:05 Yeah, well, who knows if they're trying to find a pretext to either deny our our claim to put up the bathmat or or deny future filming or whatever else but yeah it's interesting yeah, the panic we cause

Unknown Speaker 1:02:21 so just hanging out with you makes people get into trouble good to know don't get my podcast banned again please It's already been banned off of YouTube twice a third time would be unnecessary.

Unknown Speaker 1:02:35 What banned off of YouTube Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 1:02:39 for I don't know for violating community standards for when there was nothing nothing more offensive said than what was said here today perhaps. And I think people watch my content sometimes and then they mass report it and then they get it taken down because other people who put it up to put my content up on their channels it stayed there just fine.

Unknown Speaker 1:03:04 Oh yeah, I think you must be victim of a concerted effort in for fucksakes Have you ever seen comments on YouTube YouTube as bizarre there's something there's something remarkable about YouTube in which you can look at any random video and managed to find some racist comments some of the most ignorant in there will be apropos of absolutely nothing within the video at all. I was explaining this to somebody how I've seen these these remarkable comments on YouTube that seem unique to YouTube over most any other venue or you know you can see comments on articles and not see things of a similar nature but in YouTube it's it's it there's something different video one time for the Satanic Temple in one of the first comments to pop up after I had had this dialogue with somebody is are you and it helped you a

Unknown Speaker 1:04:06 lot sorry you cut off a Fagin. Oh, well, dear.

Unknown Speaker 1:04:11 In what was what was interesting about this comment is it wasn't even clear who it was directed to. You know, is who affected I wondered in what was the relevance to any of this at all. But that's really seems the norm on YouTube. It seems like there's just armies of people combing through YouTube looking for something that was uploaded to give some kind of non sequitur comments that is

Unknown Speaker 1:04:37 well, have you seen some of the like most popular YouTube atheists, they're horrible. What is it about YouTube that brings horrible people together and gives them such a large platform and I say this as someone who has a YouTube channel so you know, I get it hashtag not all YouTubers or whatever, but there's a lot of really, really disgusting YouTubers. atheists do my work. Because I don't want to get dogged by everything. I mean there's Islam is out there. Yeah, there's a hate preachers of all sorts. So yeah, YouTube brings up YouTube brings out the,

Unknown Speaker 1:05:15 but I'll see these videos, these video channels where it's just some slob sitting in his living room pontificating about world events. And then I'll look and see that there's like some 100,000 views a massive following and I don't know how that happened.

Unknown Speaker 1:05:33 Yeah, I am in the same boat because I am blown away by like the student, his wife beater saying nothing of importance and having really stupid opinions. And then you see, he's got like, you know, 100,000 YouTube subscribers, and I'm like, what? How do you

Unknown Speaker 1:05:52 happen? I know, I feel like I've done I'll start feeling good that I've done something right that the media has been managed very well. The after school, Satan club video has over a quarter million views. And then I see things like that. And I think wow, or recently, there is a story. I have my my Google alerts set. So I get stories related to the Satanic Temple and Satanism. And there was this massive amount Well, I wouldn't say massive amount because you probably haven't heard of it. But once you have your alerts set, you have these things coming in. There was a significant amount of press around a story related to a UFO researcher who was allegedly killed by Satan. This is one of the stupidest most irresponsible conspiracies stories, but all these UK sources covered it the mirror the Daily Mail, yeah, yeah. All that crap. And then it just made me think wow, made me feel less of it made me feel less accomplished in bringing attention to the issues we have by by managing to get them into the press and creating a dialogue about it.

Unknown Speaker 1:07:07 Well just know that the stupider shit always appeals to more like more minds, right? You can

Unknown Speaker 1:07:13 definitely see that in the Satanic Temple because we do some very serious campaigns, right?

Unknown Speaker 1:07:17 Your stuff is definitely highbrow and intellectual and not everyone's gonna get it or have the patience.

Unknown Speaker 1:07:25 don't realize that because sometimes the things that are that get the most coverage are just the things that are most easily summarized. They're not necessarily

Unknown Speaker 1:07:35 Well, Kim Kardashian asked for one right?

Unknown Speaker 1:07:39 No, I mean, I mean, I met even within the Satanic Temple. It's, it's easy to summarize in a headline, the bathmat, can you

Unknown Speaker 1:07:47 mean Kim Kardashian? Its ass is not part of the Satanic Temple.

Unknown Speaker 1:07:53 I am not at liberty to disclose whether it is. I was speaking to a journalist from Pacific Standard yesterday, and he was hoping for kind of maybe a tongue in cheek comment related to the idea of satanic ritual abuse or related to Halloween or something like that. And in he was thinking, you know, that there's far more evidence that the that Christian mainstream organizations have been abusive to children than then any imaginary satanist group. And before I talked to him, I led him to our gray faction.org website to let him know how much we've been trying to do to rectify the continued purveying of Satanic Panic through licensed mental health therapists and how we're fighting the oversight boards to investigate some of the conspiracists within the mental health profession in these kinds of serious efforts were doing. And he had no idea that we were involved in these types of things. He had this idea, just looking from the outside, that there's just this kind of prankster ish political theater, he didn't know that we are involved in this, in these protect children campaigns, run up exemption forms from corporal punishment for kids. And, you know, in a lot of people still, I think, don't know that we have these lawsuits in Missouri, fighting for reproductive rights. And that obviously, these are very cost prohibitive legal battles in that these are our very kind of well thought out and have none of that humor value that people might be looking for something that would be more more prankster ish. That is unfortunate. I think that's that's part of the whole clickbait culture that that has, I mean, it admittedly it's it's helped us get certain attention issues, but it's also had its downside and that it's diminished our Some of the most thoughtful campaigns we've executed.

Unknown Speaker 1:10:04 Yeah, yeah. I mean, have you seen these Alex Jones and this this British guy that works for his website? Paul Joseph Watson I think he also perpetuates the Satanic Panic stuff in a whole different way where he thinks that the music industry has ties to the to satanic rituals and the Illuminati and Mickey Mouse ears are a sign of how the Illuminati control the music it's like really absurd shed and then you see these prominent atheists entertaining this guy as if he's a legitimate voice and hosting them on his show on their shows. And it's just really depressing that just because someone hates Islam people are willing to team up with these really awful characters. I don't know if you've heard of him but you should check them out Joel

Unknown Speaker 1:11:02 Stein seems at ease with with embracing to a certain degree the 911 truth or movement which I'm stressing as well, this

Unknown Speaker 1:11:12 guy is also a 911 Truth or if I'm not mistaken

Unknown Speaker 1:11:16 Well, Alex Jones has no credibility at all in in anybody who doesn't think that Alex Jones is a stupid asshole is probably a stupid asshole. I really have no no tolerance for Alex Jones or his following or or any of that. See,

Unknown Speaker 1:11:31 it's so refreshing to hear that because some of the atheist circles that I've been around online are really starting to find if not, Alex Jones has his buddy Paul, Joseph Watson at least very credible and worth interviewing and worth giving more credibility to which I just think is wrong. Before I let you go, I have some audience questions for you. Oh, yeah. Someone Someone wants you to ask you. What? What do you wear under those robes? I don't act. I've never actually seen you wear robes. So I'm not sure how relevant that question is. But

Unknown Speaker 1:12:13 yeah, I don't wear robes. So typically, I wear clothes. Okay, so we're wearing robes. I don't know. Maybe I'd be compelled to wear nothing under them. But I'm not not sure whether I guess

Unknown Speaker 1:12:27 it does depend on the weather. Always wise and sensible. You are at Natali his dad asks, Where did this sexy costume thing come from? And should they cut that shit out?

Unknown Speaker 1:12:40 Well, there again. It's like It's like judging the intent of person speaking. I guess you have to judge the the efficacy of the of the sexy costume.

Unknown Speaker 1:12:52 What about like a sexy poop emoji? Because I saw that recently. Sexy corn on the cob

Unknown Speaker 1:12:59 emoji emoji. Yeah. Oh, wow.

Unknown Speaker 1:13:03 Sexy corn on the cob. I've seen a sec.

Unknown Speaker 1:13:06 If it's not if you're not in drag or dress satanic Lee, I'm offended.

Unknown Speaker 1:13:12 Some would call you transphobic for that,

Unknown Speaker 1:13:14 right? You know, if I'm offended, I'm gonna run to a counselor.

Unknown Speaker 1:13:19 As you should of course. Okay, Joel, our DOD asked describe what a Satanic Temple taxpayer subsidized enormous religious theme park in Kentucky might look like? Well,

Unknown Speaker 1:13:33 it wouldn't look like it. You know, we've we rejected tax exempt status from the beginning because we reject that notion that religious organization should their own unique type of tax exemption. So yeah, no, I think that is an outrage. And it's, at least at least there was good news from American Atheists. They they filed a lawsuit against I forget which state but a state was subsidizing a big Baptist Convention to the tune of some 65 grand I think it was, but they they they reversed that when American Atheists filed suit or or threatened to file suit. So that was a victory but I am encouraged that people realize what a terrible thing it is that tax subsidies went to the Creation Museum. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:14:27 And I think a lot of people realize that just not even just atheists like a lot of people across the spectrum of different religions that that believe in evolution, I guess, are offended by that. Yeah. And it's funny because Ken Ham kind of tweets obsessively, trying to show that there are crowds there. What is the deal with that? Like, he's always like, Oh, look, there's a credit was a massive crowd here today. Oh, people are bringing their friends and families. Crowds in the cafeteria. Okay, can we get it you're insecure? are not well,

Unknown Speaker 1:15:00 not only insecure, I think this kind of goes to the notion that that seems prevalent in this crowd. And within theocratic politicians circles, that consensus can make something true that I think they really have no idea what constitutes facts or evidence. And they really feel that reality is built by consensus. So if you if you have people in general agreement that the United States was founded on Christian precepts, and that they were fundamental to the formation of constitutional law, that, yeah, I mean, revising that history absolutely does have an effect on how we carry out things in the current day or move forward with things. But I also feel that on the Ken Ham level, there's this misunderstanding of what science is there's this kind of strange notion of what reality is, and this idea, yeah, that's funny,

Unknown Speaker 1:16:01 because he refers to evolution as a as a myth, like, as a fairy tale or something. So ironic.

Unknown Speaker 1:16:09 Right? He's kind of he kind of sees the arguments against his own arguments, and tries to co op them. He doesn't. He certainly doesn't try to learn from them. He doesn't know what empirical evidence is, he obviously doesn't really understand the scientific method or, or can't see past his own self imposed delusions to comprehend these things. And I think all that you're left with, then is this consensus. If you can get enough people to agree with it, you've made it true. Or you then have some kind of license to impose the outcome of that belief on to the world.

Unknown Speaker 1:16:46 Yeah. Alright, so atheist, Iran asks, How does Lucian grieves feel about being referred to as a real worshipper of Satan by Muslim conspiracy theorists?

Unknown Speaker 1:16:57 No, I haven't. I would, I would like citation on that one. If there's been Ahmed, if there's been commentary about me from Muslim conspiracy theorists, so I would love to see, I assume this person is speaking to some actual commentary that's been made. But I think people would be amazed to know how, how often I don't look at commentary about me and how often I don't look at emails I even received from the general public, I do have people who I share email accounts with who look at these types of things. But I found that after a short while, I found that I couldn't, I didn't really have the stomach for a lot of it. Does it

Unknown Speaker 1:17:40 upset you like, does it? Have you been really, like ever really upset by stuff that people have said about you?

Unknown Speaker 1:17:49 No, but there's kind of a cumulative effect. If you're, if you're reading over a bunch of that stuff, it can just ruin your day, really, for sure. Even if it's not something you're dwelling on, it's like reading it, reading a book about some horrific event or whatever, after a while, it just, it just really wears on you, you know you do the theme just kind of gets to you, if nothing else, and it's not very productive. It's so much of it is repeating upon itself. And then you begin wondering why you're doing what you're doing. Yeah. Who are supporting you, sometimes they're sending you the most ignorant messages. That's the worst part, you know, the threats and things like that. Those are very predictable and easy to dismiss. When you're getting strange messages of support that completely miss the point of what you're doing. That can be more distressing. Still, for sure. Wow. When you when you found that at least 90% of the messages you get are from people you don't want to engage in you stop wasting your time with that. And if you're lucky enough to have other people willing to filter that kind of thing. Like I do, then that's different, but I am I am interested in in if not Muslim, just Middle Eastern conspiracy theories and in in all Altras conspiracy theories, because I'm, I feel like I'm very aware of American conspiracy theories. And, and I like to try to see the common structure of conspiracy theory.

Unknown Speaker 1:19:18 Mm hmm. I mean, I don't recall like a crazy conspiracy theory culture. In Saudi, like, there is one over here, but that's probably because ideas are very policed, and you can't really be open about what you're thinking. So I mean, we had the word Prince and Royal and things like that bleeped out of cartoons in Saudi because we're not really supposed to think about the monarchy because it's not really an Islamic governance, something like that. They don't really want you to think about the monarchy so they removed traces of monarchy related words.

Unknown Speaker 1:19:55 Ah ha.

Unknown Speaker 1:19:56 Because then obviously, you're not going to realize you're living In a kingdom,

Unknown Speaker 1:20:01 have you seen any Muslim commentary on the Satanic Temple? or No, I

Unknown Speaker 1:20:05 haven't actually that's I've only seen Christian commentary. I mean, I know that Muslims will immediately say anything is satanic if they feel enough fear or disgust towards it, so maybe not directly about the Satanic Temple, but yeah, Satan for sure. I mean, Satan supposed to piss in your hair, if you don't wake up from morning prayer or piss in your ear or something like that. There's a lot of I mean, there's a lot of Satan related myth stuff, right? Which I always say as a kid, right? Because,

Unknown Speaker 1:20:42 right, right, I believe the, the Muslims have more of a, or just as much of a fear of Satan as his Christians. And yeah, Jews have a lot less of that. So I think, I think the Satanic Temple is a lot less shocking to, to Jews. Yeah, but I, I could see it still being shocking to Muslims. But that said,

Unknown Speaker 1:21:08 but I mean, people are still killed for witchcraft and shit in Saudi Arabia, right.

Unknown Speaker 1:21:15 But in the United States, again, of course, the situation is completely different. So we have had positive American Muslim commentary. And that's just because I feel in the same way, we have received some positive commentary from from moderate Christian groups as well, where they actually look at what we're doing and see we fight for religious freedom. And if you're part of a genuine religious freedom, that is, I mean, that's not just your religion. Right? Right, this idea of the government viewpoint neutrality, and that all religious perspective should be treated the same real, religious, religious freedom. But when you're part of a minority religion, it's I think it's easier to see the value in that and I think, for that reason, we've had some positive commentary from American Muslims.

Unknown Speaker 1:22:11 Well, that's nice to hear. I mean, I wouldn't think that you would get any but because there's just such a fear of Satan and anything satanic. I mean, they will take it quite literally that you're trying to summon Satan and indoctrinate their children or something. So if they can see past that and just see to the legal from the legal standpoint that you're fighting for religious freedom for everyone, then that that's a that's a really good thing.

Unknown Speaker 1:22:40 Yeah, yeah, we have had that but, but as I said, I'd be really interested to see the

Unknown Speaker 1:22:45 that'd be pretty cool to like, have you guys invited to like an interfaith dialogue with like, Muslims, that'd be amazing. Like a, like an Iftar in Ramadan, like with the Satan this, that'd be so cool. Something to aspire to. I'll see if I can hook that up. Not that I'm very well. Not that I'll be very welcome. But I'll see if I can get you guys in Iftar invite.

Unknown Speaker 1:23:10 That would be interesting. I would I would do that. Yeah. Definitely.

Unknown Speaker 1:23:16 Cool. Good to know. Okay, so So last question. A couple of people asked me this, I think they still think that you might be a superstitious guy. So they asked me like, is he for real? And what is Satanic Temple all about? So if you have a quick little Do you really believe in Satan? Do you really believe in the supernatural?

Unknown Speaker 1:23:36 No, we're very open that we don't. And it's funny, we're very clear about that. And we're very upfront with what we do and don't believe and I feel like mainstream religions have so perverted people's minds in certain ways that that degree of honesty be speaks of dishonesty to people they'll say well, you're you admit you're an atheist as though this would be something I would hide. Therefore, these claims to, to deeply held beliefs or a religion are mere artifice, they're they're dishonest ploy, or whatever. And they'll say these things, but apparently without reading our justification, or, or understanding what we mean by non theistic religion, or recognizing how counterproductive it is to say that if you are non superstition, you don't have a religion. It would be a different story if religions weren't afforded certain exemptions and privileges. But since they are the idea that you as a non believer can't have a religion is actually diminishing your your civic capabilities. And they're right Thank God goes entirely against Democratic constitutional principles. So when we put forward the definition of religion, that would that we think is legitimate, I think it's really the the only way you can define religion in a pluralistic society. And the Satan aspect of it isn't arbitrary. It's not something we, we use just as a ploy, or just to piss off Christians, as some people take the liberty of asserting when they, they decide they know exactly what our motives and values are, you know, for the most part, I feel that probably a lot of the people who self identify with the Satanic Temple come from backgrounds where they were indoctrinated into Judeo Christian culture. And they have seen that as a destructive force, and have come to embrace the aesthetic, the symbolism, the rebel narrative of the satanic metaphor, and I feel it's completely legitimate, it does help us maintain a sense of cultural light. And I think that's really those are the elements you need to be a religion I think those are the only elements that can be asked of you to have a religion to have your deeply held beliefs and have that sense of cultural identity.

Unknown Speaker 1:26:08 Yeah, I mean, I think that's a that's a great answer. I really do enjoy the Satan aspect without it. I don't know if you'd be my favorite religion. But yeah, it

Unknown Speaker 1:26:19 wouldn't be mine. Yeah, you don't have to have puts supernatural value to symbolic constructs to appreciate the artistic raw material that Satanism provides.

Unknown Speaker 1:26:33 Right so when you say like, it helps you maintain a cultural identity like Is it is it a part of your everyday life like is your does your house have a satanic feels? Who it is your I don't know. Do you celebrate holidays and with a satanic touch to them?

Unknown Speaker 1:26:50 I definitely appreciate I've always appreciated Halloween over everything else. But yeah, but But as I've said, where there has been kind of recent push to Satan eyes Christmas, and I I've so I've, I've grown to appreciate the season more and more as time has gone on. But yeah, I've always gravitated towards the satanic aesthetic. Even when I was a little kid. I really love the universal horror films. And, and I feel that's that's common in people who gravitate towards Satanism. Yeah, it's

Unknown Speaker 1:27:26 so strange because me too, like, I think I watched Nightmare on Elm Street when I was five. And I don't know why I was allowed to. But it did.

Unknown Speaker 1:27:36 Right. Right. I but I, I think that's something that some of the atheist activists who embrace us and feel that this is just simply a great form of activism. Don't understand that this the aesthetic, the art that that comes with, it isn't some kind of effort to piss off the other side. It's something we actually appreciate. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:28:02 Yeah. I mean, that's, that's really, it's really a good way to put it. I don't think I've ever thought of it like that. But I mean, it's true. Like I shop during Halloween for the rest of the year. Like I'll buy like wine glasses with little edge skulls on the more you know, I have like a skeleton apron and things like that. So so like, when it's Halloween, like my friends know that I'm going to be out buying stuff. So they'll like buy me little things. Like my friend just came over the other day, and she bought me like this hand soap from Bath and Body Works. And it's like it's called vampire blood and Scott bans on it. So everybody knows, right? It's probably it is like a cultural identity that just emanates it. Like if you were to come to my house, you'd see a lot of a lot of stuff that that, like I'm not a Satanist haven't signed up officially for the at your website, but maybe I will someday. I don't know what prevents me from doing it either. Maybe just this idea of not being attached to a religion is important to me. But yet I'm really drawn to the Satanic Temple, I have to say,

Unknown Speaker 1:29:10 well, the the one thing about the Satanic Temple that really distinguishes us from other religious groups is we have none of that insularity. You know, there's there's certainly nothing that discourages the self identified satanist from engaging with other people in. We're not we don't proselytize. Yeah. There isn't this notion that well, if everybody converts to this way of thinking the world will be a better place and we'll be better off and that's just that's, that's the destructive force of religion, this idea that you can build this worldwide utopia, everybody's in agreement with your with your particular code of ethics. That's just

Unknown Speaker 1:29:54 tribalism, right? Yeah. Yeah, that

Unknown Speaker 1:29:57 the tribe must but that the tribe must be excited. extended into the entire world that everybody must be assimilated. That sounds terrific to me.

Unknown Speaker 1:30:05 Yeah, assimilation is a horrible word outside. Well, even in terms of immigration, I hear people use it all the time, like assimilation versus integration, and I just flinch when I hear assimilate. Just don't like the word but yeah, I mean, even when you get a group of non tribalists together, as you see many atheist proclaimed to be non tribalism, they start to develop this tribalist way of thinking around being non tribalist. And then it becomes tribal

Unknown Speaker 1:30:36 Right exactly and and I've seen that in the in the atheist groups because I go to speak at the secular conferences and atheist conferences and that kind of thing. where more and more the primary concern seems to be in growing numbers. And it seems to me that if your primary concern is the numbers of people that's why then you're not Yeah, but you're also not creating the type of value that would draw people in any way set the mission than growing numbers to to draw in the non conformance

Unknown Speaker 1:31:12 you're true Exactly. Then they become conformance Right? Like it's a vicious cycle. People used to say that to me about like Goths to like when I was in in in college and I guess i i Dressed extremely goth I suppose. And then there was this friend of mine would always be like haha it's so funny to see all these non conformance like standing there and alive for Depeche Mode concert like with everyone's in black, everyone's got fishnets everyone's got a black trench coat. And he's kind of Rocky.

Unknown Speaker 1:31:46 The non conformists uniform.

Unknown Speaker 1:31:47 That's right. I mean, it annoyed me really to hear that at that point, cuz I was like, Hell fuck you like. But yeah, I can see that. But anyways, it's been such a pleasure chatting to you. As always, thank you so much for joining me for this special spooky episode. Hopefully you weren't too offended or triggered by our conversations. And you are a counseling

Unknown Speaker 1:32:16 counselor. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:32:20 All right, well, you take care of yourself. And, you know, let me know if there's anything I can ever do to help your organization that's within my limited abilities. I fully support the Satanic Temple. What's your guys's website again, just in case people want to check it out?

Unknown Speaker 1:32:36 The Satanic Temple calm in? I was talking earlier about the therapeutic culture that helped provoke the Satanic Panic. And if people are interested in what we're doing on that front, they should check out Grey faction.org All right, well, take care. Thank you. I hope to talk to you again soon.

Unknown Speaker 1:32:59 Yeah. All right. Bye. Bye. Thanks for listening to another episode of polite conversations. You can support this podcast by sharing the shit out of it, making some noise about it, or contributing via Patreon patreon.com forward slash nice mangoes. No Ian mangoes. Also, you can follow me on Twitter at nice mangos. If you want to make a one time donation instead of a monthly patreon one. You can do so via PayPal. Nice mangos.blog@gmail.com. Remember, no Ian mangoes. If you've got an interesting story and would potentially like to be a guest, you can email me there to a special thanks to Dylan Beck for theme music, sound and production help