Podcasts/CwD-DougMesner-FounderOfTST

Feb 22, 2017 at 12:49 pm
Conversations With Dwyer: Doug Mesner - Founder of The Satanic Temple and Anti-Theocracy Activist
Doug Mesner joins Conversations for the fourth time and it is once it’s a riveting conversation. Doug speaks about fighting theocracy, when Republicans talk about religious rights they are only speaking about Christianity, and the backlash repealing the Johnson Amendment will have on Christianity and politics.
https://shows.acast.com/mattdwyer_x/episodes/59ee1d676a56eba371b69400

Transcript

00:00:00 [Intro]

00:00:53 Matt Dwyer: Let's now when I get into this conversation with Doug Messner, he started the Satanic Temple and we talked about this in the interview, but people always are like, ooh, Satan, and it's scary. Just Satan isn't scary. Because he's fictional. And just Oh, and sometimes I have a little bit of an audio problem because it's a phone interview. But a stay in there because Doug is it's not bad the audio but Doug is so intelligent and has so much to say that I really think you're gonna want to listen. So here we go our conversation with Doug Messner.

00:08:57 This isn't fair to say that you're an activists, activist against not Christianity, but like the "religious right" and what they've been...?

00:09:08 Doug Misicko: Yeah. Well, certainly, we're always going to be activist against autocracy and theocracy, and there's just no denying. He's assembled a whole cabinet of theocrats. People like Mike Pence were, were were problematic for us as people we were paying amongst the people were paying attention to before this administration came into place. A funny little story. And Oklahoma when the 10 commandments monument was an issue there. And I'm sure we talked about this previously, we offered a monument of our own a satanic monument to be put up alongside the 10 commandments monument and the thinking was that the Oklahoma government couldn't say no to a private donation to satanic monument because they had made this art Given that the 10 commandments monument on the Capitol grounds wasn't a violation of the establishment clause because it was a private donation, and an area that they then essentially opened up to be understood as a free speech open forum, and the government has to remain neutral on what's the appropriate expression of religion or political expression in such an open forum. That's, that's first amendment rights. So in any case, that battle kind of raged on and we, we contrived our argument for putting our Sudanic monuments up to very much match the justifications for the 10 commandments might be talked about the kind of legal precedent that would allow for this what kind of secular message that was related to United States history that we meant to evoke in all of this. And the Attorney General there at the time, was, was obligated to, at his own behest to defend the 10 commandments monument. Given the wording of the bill is it obligated the the Attorney General to waste taxpayer funds to defend this privately donated 10 commandments. So they're already see a kind of conflict of interest. But as Oklahoma refused to, to reply to, to our, to our request, at certain points, when we were trying to push for this, we filed a Freedom of Information Act request for all documentation relating to our request, and all internal government emails related to it, that type of thing, all of which is is completely fair game when it comes to Freedom of Information Act requests from, from the Attorney General's Office. And then I believe coordinated the documents gathering for information requests. We only got we only got letters that have been sent to the government from the general public. That is to say, when they, when they came through on this documents request, they were apparently telling us that they had had absolutely zero internal dialogue about this monument thing at all, even though it was international news since then. And this was a this was a big deal, and very controversial over there. We were supposed to believe that this that this document request was was was fulfilled by only these kinds of public messages. So we felt that if we were going to go to court to this, about this, obviously, in the discovery process, we would find that they had lied about these documents, and that there were absolutely plenty others within the government. And we had every reason to believe that there was going to be some kind of damning communications about specifically speaking about how they can keep the satanic monument out to the benefit of the of the 10 commandments monument. Well, in any case, it didn't come to that point where we go to trial, because the state Supreme Court in Oklahoma determined that the 10 commandments monument violated prohibitions against that kind of Church State intermingling, and they seem to think man on legal and opt out if we only wanted our money. There, so we go to our bid. The Attorney General in Oklahoma did not understand this, this, this basic principle of the separation of church and state. And once the once the Oklahoma Supreme Court ruled against the 10 commandments monument. He sought to change the state constitution, he wanted to put it up to a vote to change the state constitution to then allow for the 10 commandments monument to go up. Now you have to keep in mind, the state is nearly bankrupt, they they have school districts there that can't afford to keep school open five days a week, and they're fucking attorney generals worried, above all things about keeping defense on putting it to a vote to change the state constitution, without realizing that would also be a waste of taxpayer money because you can change your state constitution it's still not going to pass muster with federal law and who end up coming down Supreme Court later on. Anyways. Then to wrap that story up, this failed Attorney General this moron absolutely did not understand this job. We completely incompetent and wasteful at that. He just got confirmed yesterday, yesterday to be the head of the EPA and the Trump administration. And that one he's, that one kind of fell under the radar. I think for most people Scott Pruitt becoming the head of the EPA, because the rest of the cabinet is so fucking bad as well. that he's just another he's just another name on the on the roster. I mean, this is this is so ridiculously uncommonly bad this administration has put together that I think it it, it falls outside of the boundaries of anything we can consider normal or even disagreeable before this is a whole new realm. There's every day the news, you bring some forth some other horrific revelation of what's going on in this administration. I think the bedding has gotten a read recently, there's, there's betting pools, you know, and and there's being serious ads placed on resignation or impeachment before the end of the of this of this term. And people are placing ads out of office, whether it's in the first year, second year, third year, fourth year, the odds related to each. So it's a really, really, it's really an interesting time, if nothing else.

00:16:05 Matt Dwyer: Yeah, somebody pointed out to me that it's like if there's a Vegas odds, those people don't fuck with money, you know that those odds are probably correct or close to being correct, because they don't fuck around with with that. And that's an interesting point. Did you... Did you see this? This shift to the right, and that's an extreme shift. Did you see this coming at all?

00:16:32 Doug Misicko: It's been there. I you know, I hate to say it, but in some ways, it makes me happy to see that other people are forced to look this in the face. Because and you can see the shift in attitude the very night the election results were coming in. And and there was a whole new attitude just in the way that people thought about The Satanic Temple. As soon as those those results were coming in. Because we've we've always suffered from this general public perception that, that we're just a prank, and we don't mind. We don't mind being pranksters by any means. But a lot of times, people view prankster-ism, in uses of humor as as delegitimize, an organization such as ours, you know, the idea that we don't have true beliefs that this is all a big, big joke to us so that our deeply held beliefs, I guess, are matter of convenience. And that humor and in mockery are the great overriding, overriding drives as to what we do what we do. And I think Hillary's collected in a lot of people's mind kind of not this organization. But, I mean, as soon as the results are coming in, it was said that Trump won the election, that was one time where exogenous forces really drove a spike in our membership. I mean, it just, it just dramatically increased 100 fold force versus some some time, you know, and hasn't, hasn't leveled back down. People instantly, instantly felt the terror, I think, and then this fight against theocratic seams altogether to real. And it was it was something as I said, I always took seriously, I always thought was, was a very distinct and troubling problem. doing what I'm doing. I've been following this kind of push by church groups to plant politicians, public office and fighting kind of fights we do. Even though we approached them in a humorous way, it's always distressed me that we had to fight them at all. And I've been great fear for, for the American Republic for some time now, due to the preponderance of politicians coming into office now whose first loyalty is to their is to their tribal religious identity, rather than rather than any constitutional values and the constitutional values they seek to revise or rewrite entirely and prevent pretend that it's always been that way. This real drive and quota in America theocracy plates. This was it's, I can only hope. Now, that so. So all in unconcealed now that something will have to be done but I was terrified when I felt its more insideous threats.

00:19:49 Matt Dwyer: Do you feel that because I don't believe that the majority of America wants this and believe wants theocracy or is even that Christian? I know there's pockets that are especially in The South that are very Uber religious, but I feel like overall, that is not what people want. And I feel like this administration is making a lot of policies that nobody voted for or one. Do you agree to that?

00:20:13 Doug Misicko: I agree to that. And further, it may sound counterintuitive, but that's one thing actually, that makes me hopeful, you know, this. And as I said, Now, now, people are forced to confront the theocratic design. So a lot of these people in office, I think a lot of people who identify as Christian now are forced to look at the differences between the kind of sectarian divide that they've more or less ignored, it's kind of held a unified voice of the Christian agenda. You know, you have really extreme fundamentalist evangelical sects, just claiming the name of American Christian. And they go forward under the notion that they speak for all of the religious identification, Christianity, Kim, polls come around, say, oh, some 70% of Christians say they like to leverage that and say, Well, this is exactly what's in a line, alignment, our own agenda, the National Prayer Breakfast breakfast, Donald Trump was talking about repealing the Johnson and Johnson Amendment specifically prohibits church organizations from engaging in politics one way or the other, they're not allowed to directly or indirectly try to influence the outcome of an election by by showing for a candidate or against another. And they see, it's been pointed out that they violate this all the time, by by talking at the pulpit, in favor or against a certain candidate. And in nothing really comes of that. But what repealing the Johnson Amendment will do, will make it available for these nonprofits and religious nonprofit doesn't even have to file a tax return at the end of the year. So it's invisible money, and they'll be able to funnel money into political campaigns now, and I think, you know, Trump is smelling that money, and wants to repeal the Johnson Amendment. But I honestly think that that will have a very divisive effect on American Christianity. And in my view, this administration might be the ruination of American Christian identification, or at least the evangelical in I say that because you take, say, Catholics, a recent Pew poll showed actually that they're evenly divided about between Republicans and Democrats. And if you repeal the Johnson Amendment, and you have, say, a, you know, large funders funneling money through essentially just becomes dark money to laundered money to go on political campaign, and say, they get a cut of that money, and it goes to be funneled into a political campaign. Well, it's going to become very divisive to, to accept that kind of that kind of structure one way or the other, or month space. But then again, you know, if those are the churches that are getting the largest amounts of funding, it's difficult to say no to that kind of thing. And I think there's a lot of people who identify as Christian probably go to the churches, telephone one, and they still hold the delusion that they can, they can keep it separated. You know, this isn't a political, this isn't a political thing. This is supposedly a spiritual thing. And despite the strong feelings of some of the people in the congregation, you know, at the end of the day, they're just all Christian. Well, now, I think with the repeal of the Johnson Amendment that will really kind of force the hands of these religious organizations to engage in politics. And as that happens, I think people attending the churches feeling they're doing so for spiritual reasons, they're going to have to reassess everything and ask themselves how is there anything spiritual about this? How is there anything of religion? Dissolve political opportunism, and now this is all just a big money bullet, and it becomes like the corporate ties church, and I feel that I just, I just can't help but think that this isn't going to work out well, for that job close by and bear again, perhaps that's very hopeful, but it's all I can do is try to see try to see the bright side.

00:24:37 Matt Dwyer: Yeah, cuz part of me is like, I would love it if people started questioning that but I'm also like, will they because I, I just I don't feel like there's a lot of critical thought anymore in our society. I feel like that's been pushed down.

00:24:53 Doug Misicko: Yeah, well, maybe it's that or maybe the ones who are lacking in critical thought had to pull them So up to the surface more so that it's time.

00:25:05 Matt Dwyer: I mean, do you too.

00:25:06 Doug Misicko: I mean, you you take a guy like Mike Pence, I think I think his points of view are really quite extremist and radical. I mean, he is a Christian just in the way you would call Islamic radical Islamic. He's very much a Christian looking to impose his religious perspective in a very political fashion. He's wanting to remodel American law based on his theocratic and and I don't think he is indicative of the majority population by any stretch of the imagination. And I think, you know, the further they push it, the more they do force people to confront those differences in values.

00:25:51 Matt Dwyer: Yeah, I, I mean, I look at him and I'm, I think you're not even a Christian like you're just a guy with some fucked up agenda and you're using your, the umbrella of Christianity to, to present it because you don't act like a Christian, you're a hateful prick.

00:26:08 Doug Misicko: Right, right. Well, you know, this, this brings up all kinds of bizarre questions that I'm forced to think about, because it's funny to me. I mean, we we fight on, on a minimal budget and throw our lives into it, you know, to fight for what we really believe that we utilize humor sometimes. So people think that D legitimizing it does irritate me, when we get this kind of shitty commentary while they're not really, or whatever else. And those are, those are fine things. You know, that's fine to suspect and say, but it always troubles me that people seem to lack the ability to turn that around to the more established organization, like Liberty Council, the Lions defense fund, is begin asking themselves Wait a minute, alright, is if the Satanic Temple isn't a religion, just a political group? How are some of these so called Christian groups, any different at all? And, and I would be fine with people questioning our legitimacy if they were able to, to bring the question round and look at the parties where we're up against. But yeah, as you say, there's a there's a good question about, what does it mean to be a Christian? At this point, when you do have these kinds of eightfold pricks going around? In they're not tying their agenda to any any scriptural fields that you can find? That was a big question, but like Hobby Lobby, Hobby Lobby was leveraging the Religious Freedom Restoration Act sets a that they don't have to pay health benefits to, to health care packages that that cover certain types of contraceptives. Now, where in the Bible, are you going to find anything related to company health insurance, that provides contraception? And where do you really find anything about contraception in the Bible anyway, this whole idea of of them standing up their deeply held beliefs. So what were these deeply held beliefs come from? And what do they have to do with Christianity? And is this really something that's religious at all? Or is it just some atomistic drive? Or it can we consider it religious merely? Because you're, you're part of this little tribal culture and part of your identity that right again? Certainly Satanic Temple is every better religion? Well?

00:28:40 Matt Dwyer: Yeah. And there's a lot of things that the Satanic Temple it provides, is to sort of defend against some of these moves that the Christian right is made like I don't you have a statement that you believe that your religion believes in abortion?

00:29:02 Doug Misicko: Well, we believe in people being able to make that choice, you know, and of course, we came out in defense of the freedom of choice for abortion as as tying in with our tenants that that gives people their their bodily autonomy, that kind of individual choice and be able to make one decision based on the best available scientific evidence. And we do tie those in with our, with our most deeply held tenets. Of course, some of the Christian press lifesite Things like that. contextualize it to say that the Satanic Temple views abortion as a sacrament and tries to build it off like we prefer abortion over lifer, which is just bullshit. But we we actually have lawsuits being carried out now in Missouri, against some of the restrictions against abortion that they have. Because in Missouri They have these what they call informed consent rules. And they, they have a 72 hour waiting period. So while there's only one clinic in all Missouri that performs abortions, so a woman might have to travel for six hours or whatever, they're expected to come into the clinic one day, get these materials that explained to them, you know, it's this government mandated literature that explains them that like, exception, and that by having the abortion, they're essentially committing a murder of individual. And then 72 hours later, she's allowed to have that procedure. So she might have to travel, you know, six, seven hours come to that clinic, and then not be able to have feature two, three days later combat. You know, for some people taking that time off work and childcare, whatever just doesn't work, and then they can't they can't have procedure that that's that was the plan, all along make it as difficult as possible to hopefully stop abortions from take place. Well, our argument was, is that this idea that life begins at conception is without a doubt, a religious at something, you can't elevate the science. And that were of a different life doesn't begin to conception, you can only consider something individually, as is, the function doesn't have nearly sensation, but perception, you know, you have to have this kind of neurological developments. And and so anything search certainly about for 20 weeks can be considered a unique individual human being by by our point of view, and it's up to one whether she wants to wants to board to or not. And so we had a member in Missouri, he was seeking an abortion. We had her fill out exception to our waiting period brought to the clinic, they said they couldn't honor the state law. So we filed two lawsuits, the federal and state laws against Missouri. And those are, those are in the process of being litigated right now. Of course, we don't know the outcome, we and our lawyers think we have a very solid recourse. But but we'll see, you know, we just don't know.

00:32:27 Matt Dwyer: I mean, doesn't it seem like a great loophole for pretty much anything that these people that the right makes laws about is just be like, apply yourself to a religion, like you the Satanic Temple? And and then you they, they can't deny you if it's part of your religion? I mean, isn't that a logical argument that combats these idiots?

00:32:51 Doug Misicko: Well, yeah, and they never seem to even to this day, they don't seem to consider that another organization might come around when they strengthen religious liberty. It's obvious that when the politicians are considering religious liberty, there's their only thing out there. Well, both evangelicals and the lobbyists on the Christian right, come their way. And that they do you know, that they need to more loosely define religious freedom and allow more privileges and exemptions for that. But yeah, absolutely. We're saying that, okay, well, if it works, one way it works the other as well. And if you're putting together legislation based on your religious point of view, something you can't elevate to a scientist absolute, and that we do know, falls under the purview of religious opinion, our religious opinion, is entirely protected. And we should be able to refrain from any of these imposition of another point of view of product. I mean, it's a it's a basic and straightforward argument is valid. It calls very much within what religious liberty is actually supposed to mean. But we do live in a scary time now where, you know, just because we have 1000 legal arguments doesn't mean they'll be respected and the court in a judiciary populated by the Trump Tower

00:34:30 Matt Dwyer: Yeah, I mean, it seems like they are quickly destroying everything that is protects our government and I mean, he's, he's, he's shit talked the judicial system. He's he's trying to dismantle the intelligence community. He's, he's weakening the media. It's, and it's for people who are like, Oh, he's he's not. He's not a fascist. It's like these are clear actions towards We're creating a I can't say authoritarian government, don't you agree?

00:35:11 Doug Misicko: Yeah, I do. And one of the most troubling things about me is all this talk about this spiraling out of control violence, we're suffering, it's not true in SNAP, in 2015, we saw crime go up, but the overall trends is has been downward for some time now. And, you know, the, the graphs though, go back and forth, you know, in you don't know, if there's a trend still, too much later, you only know that retrospectively, right. And the uptick in violence in 2015, was certainly was kind of outlier out of the ordinary, this is well beyond the standard kind of fluctuations. It's, it's just, it's, it looks quite normal at this point. But this has been leveraged in this idea that we're spiraling out of control. And that would be, we need severe action to take place. And I think, you know, when people are using that kind of rhetoric, they're, their designs are obvious. So you can you don't have emergency powers unless you have an emergency, you know, you don't take drastic action on to these are Drastic times. And so, you know, we're, we're building this notion that the crime is spiraling out of control. And I feel like it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. You know, you have people buying into it, you have people acting, acting up. And then you have these kinds of protests like at Berkeley, where where people get all pissed off like things on fire, pepper sprayed on the faces, like, like savage little assholes. And in the upshot of that is nothing more than you're, you're justifying, after the facts, increase in police presence and the other in other other difficult little problems like that. And I think that that's the real spiral out of control. See that not that violence naturally on its own is spiraling out of control. But I think this idea of it's spiraling out of control, and everybody manner, because of that is going to have very, very terrible, very terrible effect. I mean, don't get me wrong, I am all for protest, but um, for protests that has an actual goal in mind, if your goal is just to go out there and destroy shit and light stuff on fire, because you don't want somebody to speak, even though they're they're going to have you know, even though this is the internet age, television age, and I think you're really working backwards.

00:38:03 Matt Dwyer: Do you believe at all that? Because there was there was rumblings and rumors about the the protests in Berkeley that the people that committed the violence may have been beaten from Breitbart or even from Milo, what's his Greeks named? I can never. But that, that maybe that was part of his act, because he's definitely a guy who likes to sensationalize, and stir the pot. And it's, though, protests like I mean, that happened in the 68 convention where they were Chicago police within the protests that started violence. Do you think that is at all something that happened in Berkeley? Or are they just a bunch of shit shitheads causing trouble?

00:38:51 Doug Misicko: And they're a bunch of shitheads causing trouble I'm because you have no shortage of people willing to take the credit for that in those those people, the whole anti fog group and things like that they've been they've been around for a little while now. And they've been stupid. They've been stupid all along. But you have to consider like, what what does that say about them? When, when that when that's considered a strong theory? I mean, when people are saying that, that Breitbart or some other right wing faction actually hired them to do that. I mean, that should just tell you that it's self evident that what they were doing was was so counterproductive, and you've been beneficial to the enemy. That that, you know, it's it sounds reasonable to say that they were they were actually commissioned by others died. And I think that people can't realize how backwards that kind of pre emptive violence, just that kind of disgusting behavior. I feel I was I was just disgusted by that. I think yeah, yeah. It's disappointing.

00:40:02 Matt Dwyer: It's anything that hurts the forward movement of, of the positive element of what we're trying to do is, is upsetting. And I've spoken at length with Mark Rudd from the Weather Underground, which was a, as you know, a political group that used violence. And he deeply, deeply, deeply regrets what they did in the 60s. And I mean, he's just, you see him speak about it. And he's just, you could see the remorse weighing on his body over what they did.

00:40:35 Doug Misicko: And I'm not a pacifist, right? I feel that pacifism can be sometimes a morally bankrupt position, if you're talking things related to self defense or other needs to just just tactically engage in violence for the greater good, there's no doubt that at times, you definitely do need to defend yourself and that, that you might need to do so and direct and horrible, violent action. I mean, you have to leave yourself open to that possibility. If I walked in, somebody's raping my girlfriend, I'm not going to, you know, to politely ask and try to negotiate for that person to stop, you know that that kind of thing just doesn't happen. But that said, if you're going to engage in violence and destructive activity, I would like to think that that's not the end in itself. But then that in itself isn't the goal of what you're doing just to create that kind of chaos and engagement kind of violence, if you're going to do that kind of thing as a last measure, because that's all you have left. I think you have to have in mind, what you want the outcome from that to be in real life of me, I can't understand what that outcome was they wanted at Berkeley, you know, otherwise, you're just hurting people.

00:42:00 Matt Dwyer: Yeah, and I don't get where they don't see that. Still, it seems like they would maybe be like, Hey, we're gonna do this positive thing. Okay, that didn't work. Let's rethink. Like, that's just the logic progress. Now as a because you're also you have a degree in neuroscience from Harvard. Is there? And I don't know, maybe I'm being dumb here. But as it will, correct. You did not miss speaking on that. Right. You're a neuroscientist.

00:42:30 Doug Misicko: Oh, I neither confirm nor deny any of by, I never. I never brought record into this. You know, my education really has nothing to do with what I'm doing now. But

00:42:43 Matt Dwyer: oh, I was just curious. If you look at the psychology of do I mean, Trump's actions does? Do they speak to it? Like, I mean, he's obviously to me, it's like, this is a crazy person. And I don't, right, he's crazy. Or do you think that's verbally?

00:43:01 Doug Misicko: You know, I honestly think no, I do honestly think there's something wrong here. You know, when you have this kind of kind of behavior in this kind of uneducated behavior, it makes me it makes me wonder if that is that really the way he always was, there was this idea that he was, he was a shrewd businessman, if nothing else, and he kind of ran on that platform is you know that he's been a successful businessman. He's gonna run the United States like a business. And then what does he do when he gets into office, he signs an executive order that's poorly hacked out. He doesn't run it through the proper interagency channels. He doesn't. He doesn't run it through the lawyers, so they don't understand what they're even going to be defending. When it's thrown immediately into a federal court. You know, I was listening to an interview with the Executive Director of the ACLU. And he was saying that, you know, when they were standing up there on the on the travel ban, the government lawyers were completely you know, caught off guard, they were like deer in the headlight, and they didn't, and they didn't know how to argue this. And it made me think that that that's not how a businessman does business you know, fails to run things through the proper channels and fails to have the best people give it the best understanding of how to make it work. And in obviously the things he says when he's talking he doesn't bring a full thought together. In just this bizarre kind of grandiose posture posturing during the primaries that kind of you know, I think I felt there's other people did that perhaps this was all on act, you know, this was working for him and he had done this done this reality TV show host bit for for some time, and that there was there was something more intelligent behind it. But we are not seeing that Intelligence surface and any of the activities going on in just given those those bizarre, those bizarre language issues the way the way he speaks, I do feel like he should be submitted to some kind of independent medical examination, medical and psychiatric. I wouldn't be surprised if there's something neurodegenerative going on. And I know it just sounds hysterical when I'm saying these types of things. People used to say things that people said these things during every administration, I feel like, you know, Obama came in the other side saying he's a lunatic, and he's the Anti Christ and that kind of thing. So it almost pains me to sue to be saying these things. I feel like I'm just falling in with that kind of crowd. But I honestly feel that, that Trump and this administration is far, far more different than anything we've seen before.

00:45:56 Matt Dwyer: Yeah, there's only the one thing I question is like, how much of it is maybe a calculated performance? I mean, I do think he's unhinged a bit. But it's also they're so fucking manipulative. And I feel like that since day one of that he's taken office, they've just set fire after fire, and they just keep people scrambling. And it's like that press rehearsal together press conference the other day was clearly a disaster. But I'm also like, well, he, he once again, has strayed everybody away from Russia, or actually, I think that backfired a bit, because it does does seem to just keep hovering, but it gets people confused and worked up. And it's, it's a constant distraction with them. And I'm like, maybe this is a calculated act. Do you see that sight at all?

00:46:50 Doug Misicko: I don't, I don't know. I think everybody's looking to see what the grand design is here in for me, I'm seeing less and less design as it goes on. He might be distracting from Russia to a certain degree, but he's not really distracting with anything that takes the that takes the critical scrutiny off of him or his administration. I mean, if it were Bill Clinton, he would go and go and bomb some third world country. If Donald Trump, you know, we're just seeing more of the administration entirely falling apart. And I think what what the administration really seems to be suffering from is just a lack of coherence all together. But I mean, we'll see. And I just have to wonder where I stand on that. Do I? Am I horrified to the point where I want to see somebody come in and pull the administration together? Or am I more afraid of somebody doing that and helping it sustain for a full four to eight years?

00:47:59 Matt Dwyer: Yeah, I mean, it there's all these things I read about where people are like saying that the Republicans know what's happening. And they're just waiting. They're using him as a decoy so they can get their agenda through, and then they're going to they're going to be the ones who pull the plug. And I've heard that from like, guys like Robert Reich, saying he's had conversations with Congressman, it's not like, conspiracy. But it seems like Black can fucking backfire. If you wait too long, like, it just seems like the Republicans are. People need to act on this now. Or it could be too late. Like, what if a terrorist attack happens? Or a threat? And then they have do their Reichstag fire? And it seems like then they can, they'll get more of the power that they want? I hope that wasn't too bad. I feel like I just babbled at you a little bit.

00:48:52 Doug Misicko: Well, I mean, talk about too late. I mean, look, I mean, back to the EPA pick, I mean, the guy's a climate change denier. And we are at a point right now where there's just we're we're way past due to take some serious extreme action to try to, to try to beat back the, the rapidly fluctuating temperature, or else we're fucked. And this was no time to have this level of stupidity in office. And I mean, as a matter of preservation of humanity, we have to consider what this means for appointing world leaders in the future. Do we have some kind of test for people to see that they have some kind of understanding of issues before they can vote? I mean, what can we do to fix this? And then are we a less democratic society for doing that? But then, you know, what, what's the alternative idiot like Trump? I mean, clearly so unqualified, do we have qualifications now? Because that seems to be something and absolutely lacking where if you just get elected, and you're considered qualified enough? Well, I think there's certain things Trump has done and said, that show that he doesn't understand the job. He doesn't even understand that the principles he's supposed to be upholding in that job. When you have these kinds of theocrats, who really don't seem to have any respect for the actual constitution, and are trying to rewrite American constitutional values in history, these people shouldn't have the job. If they can't uphold the Constitution, they shouldn't be in, in in the job. And it's odd, because, you know, usually they're the ones using that rhetoric. You know, they're the ones who claim to be on the side of the holy constitution and that kind of thing. But from any kind of dispassionate analysis that they run, absolutely. Absolutely, contrary to everything we hold on on that level. So, yeah, I don't know what the solution is.

00:51:04 Matt Dwyer: Yeah, it seems I've read this morning, that if he hadn't become president, he would have never made been gotten security clearance for the job. Like, if he was just appointed somewhere in a cabinet, people wouldn't have cleared him for security for security reasons, which is kind of a mind boggling concept.

00:51:25 Doug Misicko: Yeah, and there's also the, the rumor floating around that intelligence withhold certain information from him, because they don't trust him to keep it private. I mean, in all that happened, that's just another fucking thing. Korea was running some kind of missile test. And he was in a restaurant where there was, I guess, members of the general public and friends of his and they're pulling out classified documents, while people are just walking around the background and things like that. I mean, that's incompetent at such an extreme level, that it's just, you know, it, like I said, it causes you to, to question the qualifications of public officials voting qualifications. Hopefully, this causes for a lot of introspection. And that's, that's one of the one of the things I worry about is that it just won't, you know, I feel like the Democratic Party is so spineless and so worthless, and is just not nearly the counterbalance we need. I mean, they're certainly not not fighting this way they should infer as many times is, the Russia connection has come up. I'm just not seeing that kind of daily screaming that we should be getting for a full independent investigation. You know, it has its its 24 to 36 hour news cycle. And then it's forgotten all over again, until somebody weeks something even more damning about the Russia connection. But the fact that there is there's no real official movement from the Department of Justice, or anybody else at this point is just beyond disgraceful to me.

00:53:15 Matt Dwyer: That's, I can't see why there's somebody like Mark Rubio, or any other younger guy who has his eye on the on the presidency doesn't realize that this is the opportunity where you can make a lot of noise and become a fucking hero. And then you that's only going to help you like for your selfish motives, which, that's how they operate. It's like, How come no one's seeing that this is that is a political move that they could be making it confused. Yeah,

00:53:40 Doug Misicko: I don't get it. Because yeah, you're right. Because if you go in for the kill, and it works, here you are, you're your hero forever after because, you know, the people toeing the party line might in the time you're pushing, you know, really pushed back against you. But when it comes to the point where Yeah, you see that these real improprieties have taken place, and you can prove it. At what point are? Are the defenders going to completely drop away? Who's Who's legitimately going to be defending a foreign influence upon us election affairs? Yeah, cuz

00:54:19 Matt Dwyer: when when Trump's presidency collapses, and I do think that's coming, dude, like Ryan and McConnell and pence are fucked. Like they fucked themselves because they stood next to this guy and defended him and it's like, you're not going to be able to wriggle out of this one.

00:54:38 Doug Misicko: Yeah, I should hope not. I should. That's why I you know, that's why I really hope somebody somebody pushes it all the way. I mean, I just worry about it just falling into the background. I worry about people becoming unheard, all the scandal. I mean, there's the daily scandals coming out from the administration. I'm just worried that it just becomes part of the ambience after point people look at that Trump administration is it turns out to have ties with some some hostile foreign entity, whatever, you know, it's old news at that point.

00:55:13 Matt Dwyer: Yeah, well, I hope not. To wind to what, for those of you who, for those in my audience who don't know exactly what the Satanic Temple does, would you mind enlightening us on that and how people may learn more about your organization and exactly what you're doing because you do a lot of great work. And people hear the word Satan, and they, a lot of people get scared. But they don't understand what the concept is, I believe.

00:55:44 Doug Misicko: Yeah, well, you know, we, we have a website, TheSatanicTemple.com, and we have a list of campaigns were involved in on that website that people can check out. And, you know, we crowd fund for those. So if there's something you're particularly passionate about, we're working on, consider donating to any of those campaigns, or if you buy any of our T-shirts or merchandise that goes towards what we're doing as well. You know, we're often just fighting as a counterbalance against a theocratic encroachments. So that's to say when, when they open the door for religious expression in schools or anything like that, they need to expect that they're just going to satanic counterbalance coming in and in showing people that, you know, we do still live in a country that respects real religious liberty, and that the government doesn't decide which religion they prefer over another. And that's often a very bitter pill for for the evangelical opposition, we have to swallow. But But I think it's a very important message that has gotten that have gotten lost for some time. So you know, always check out of course, our our Twitter feed and our our Facebook page as well for daily updates on what we're doing. But we certainly have a lot of a lot of work to do now and in the near future.

00:57:19 Matt Dwyer: Great. And they can donate money at your website as well, correct. It's through the...

00:57:25 Doug Misicko: Yeah, yep. And you can really be campaign specific about where you want your money to go. So, if you agree with one thing like our after school, Satan clubs and not another, like our reproductive rights lawsuits. You know, that's taken into consideration. If the Johnson Amendment is repealed. We we're not a religious tax exempt right now. But if the Johnson Amendment is repealed, we'll, we will absolutely seek our religious tax exemption because at that point, we'd be insane not to.

00:58:00 Matt Dwyer: Right. Well, I thank you so much, Doug, as I think this is the fourth or fifth time you've been on this. I think you hold the record for most times on my podcast and every time it is beyond enlightening and educational. So I thank you very much for your time.

00:58:17 Doug Misicko: Well, I look forward to next time.

00:58:19 Matt Dwyer: It let's make it happen soon.

00:58:21 [Outro]