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Nov 6, 2013 at 11:21 am
Conversations With Dwyer: Doug Mesner, Repressed Memories
Doug Mesner returns to the show not to discuss the Satanic Panic but to have avery passionate conversation about the myths of repressed memory, the charlatans who profit from it and how it's ruined thousands of lives. He names names and invites them to lawyer up and come after him. Okay and we talk some Satan.


00:00:00 [Intro]

00:01:11 Matt Dwyer: Hello, and welcome to Conversations with Dwyer. And I'm trying not to cough. I have that weird tickle in the back of my like throat where I know I'm gonna cough and it's got this like weird little cough right now. And I sound like a creepy old man in a park like, you know, staring at kids in the playground when I cough. It's anything I cough and it gives me a headache. And I already have a headache because I drink some Irish whiskey last night. And that voice that you just do you just need to drink that shit one night. And you know why the British were able to occupy Ireland for hundreds of years because you don't want to do anything. I'm sure the Irish were just like, yeah, come on in. We're just gonna go lay under a tree for a while and eat some salty meat because that's what this like. That's what Irish whiskey it just takes it knocks the wind out of your necks the wind out of your IQ you just you just like want to drool, masturbate and eat salty things and pray for a slow death. I don't know who would pray for a slow death. Honestly, like, Oh, this is miserable. Please keep it going. Please, just another month of this excruciating pain, please. Oh, boy. My guest today. Sorry, is Doug Messner. He's a fascinating guy. And he's one of the big dudes behind the repressed memory. He debunked he helped he, it's been debunked that repressed memory is not real. It's a tool a lot of charlatans used to manipulate people. And some people claim they have repressed memories and then they sue people for money like an ex girlfriend of mine, when they weren't actually had horrible traumatic thing. So this is Doug Messner has a very impassioned view about this world. And it's a pretty fascinating talk. You may remember him though. He's, he did two other episodes. Oh, and we talked about the he, Fred Phelps and satanic scares, so it's good stuff. Why don't we just listened to it? The first thing I wanted to ask you is, now you weren't the main, were you the main guy who debunked the repressed memory? What is that? Is it a theory? What? It's not true? What is that? What is? Were you the main guy? Or were there? Was it like a whole movement?

00:05:56 Doug Misicko: No, no, you know, it seems to be it seems to be a misinterpretation a common misinterpretation now that I'm like the one guy, but I'm, I'm a Johnny Come Lately, really, this. This was before my time this stuff started up. It was you know, I grew up in the shadow of the Satanic Panic hearing these stories of, of satanic cults, murdering people and that kind of thing. I was just a little kid when this stuff was starting up. And the whole controversy surrounding it really took place in a time where I couldn't have had anything to do with it. During the 80s. To through the up to the mid 90s really was window legal battles were fought. I'm just the guy who came around later and saw that nothing had changed. Nothing really substantially changed within the psychiatric field to stop people from doing this. Some of these notions lost favor with with mainstream credibility with mainstream media, after grado ran these programs about recovered memories of satanic abuse and that kind of thing. And they were largely debunked. And there was a lot of legal cases that went through the court system that showed psychiatric malpractice. And people were less prone to bring their delusions into the courtroom after that. But, um, but...

00:07:25 Matt Dwyer: It's not just limited to satanic though, right? Because there's when people are sexually abused, or wasn't it also a big thing with sexual abuse in general, where it's like, oh, I had repressed memories. And now I remember. Uncle Tommy fingered me, but it wasn't always true, correct?

00:07:45 Doug Misicko: Right. Well, that's when people are trying to debate with me about this, they tried to narrow the focus to just that they, they claim that the idea is simply that certain traumas prove so damaging, that the conscious mind can't hold on to them that represses them into this compartmentalized part of the mind, that can then break off into other personalities. That's the That's the theory behind behind multiple personality disorder, which is now called dissociative identity disorder. So they like to keep the argument just focused on this idea that trauma can be repressed in this way. And then it seems it's a more palatable argument for the masses, because this is an idea that's really entrenched in our culture. Everybody knows this idea of repressed trauma, this kind of Freudian idea that if you have some kind of melees, depression, anything like that, it could be routed back into some unrecognized trauma in your past that if you just acknowledge, you can have this kind of AB reaction assimilated into your, into your consciousness and thus be rid of it and be rid of the problems that co occur with that. Well, there's not good evidence for that. But nor is that really the argument i i Take on to begin with, because where this has gone, this idea of repressed trauma is that there's accurate recall, of these repressed traumas that can be brought forward either by hypnosis, sodium manatal, interviews, or whatever else, or art therapy, whatever, whatever causes these people to remember the trauma that they supposedly had. And since a lot of this can't be verified, a lot of past events can't be verified. The idea was also that if somebody says this is so it must be true, nobody's going to lie about being abused or anything else. Or if they or even if they did, it doesn't matter because this is what the client has given you to work. With and this is so you have to take it seriously. So it, it's kind of well intentioned in that way, but it doesn't really meet the reality of it. Because it's given a carte blanche to people to completely re narrate their our lives in ways that can be disproven, you know, then we get these ideas of satanic cults. The fam, you know, somebody's father, of course, was a satanic high priest and traumatizing them to this mind control program. And you get this whole conspiracy narrative of the satanic called underground, that initiating abuse tactics against children specifically to enact a certain type of mind control and split them into multiple personalities. But as you said, it's not only satanic cult abuse that comes up from this narrative, it's also alien abduction. And the alien abduction set, also uses the same standards of evidence to prove that their clients have been abducted by aliens, and they use these retrospective surveys. And the disturbing part is, is the alien abduction set is no different than these psychiatrist who are lauded within the field of dissociation studies. For their research, it's the same technique, they do these retro active surveys, a retrospective surveys, they have these clients who are already who already believe in these narratives. And then they simply give them a survey asking them about the finer points of these items. They quantify the similarities. And then they say, well, there must be something here, there's this certain consistency to this narrative. That couldn't be true, unless it were something were actually happening of this type, ignoring the fact that people generally know what the narrative is to begin with. And a lot of these psychiatrist who work in this kind of field are sharing this delusion with one another. And they do it with organizations like the international society. For the study of trauma and dissociation, the ISSTD, they're actually this big, and in unjustifiably respected organization of people who study trauma and dissociation. And they spread delusion on the in the underground of this, you know, away from the cameras or whatever else, their last annual conference actually had a lecture on, on ritual abuse by a couple of very delusional discredited therapist, Ellen laughter and Valerie Senesin. I mean, these people are really over the top and they used a book to support their, their ritual abuse narrative, and the book was called 22 faces just by this crazed Mormon con woman who claimed that she was a she was a consultant for the Utah what was it district attorney's office or something like that? And turns out, you know, some of the people I, I conspire with we, we checked into this and it turned out she was completely lying. The Office got back to us and she had nothing to do with them. She was putting yourself out there as a therapist, she's unlicensed, he was on Dr. Phil I don't know more about that whole episode. Her book was supernatural and its narrative it's it's kind of a good case study to look at if you're trying to see what I'm talking about how they put these kinds of things out there as though just the surface of it will be that this is completely a story about a a psychiatric condition, you know about victimization through child abuse or whatever else. But then you look at the book, and it's about it has demonic possession in it. It has levitating satanist Senate, it more wall knotty, it has a Jewish Nazi mind controlling villain and it it's just the most absurd story you would ever read. And this, this book is being held out as evidence of a phenomenon at an ISSTD conference where people can get continuing education credits to go to this kind of fucking a.... it's just unbelievable. So there's kind of this counterculture, the sick, little counterculture within the within the mental health field. That would be funny. If it weren't for the fact that they're exploiting people who really do need help. I mean, think of the people come to these people for help. They need help you No, and they're getting delusion instead. And they're not getting better. And that's what really got me going on this because I had an idea of what was going on. I was investigating the idea of cults and Satanic Panic. Right? I wasn't I wasn't investigating repression, first. I was, I was hunting down this cult called The Process, so I started doing that.

00:15:23 Matt Dwyer: I know a lot of people who did the process.

00:15:27 Doug Misicko: well, and then I went to a, a SMART conference. So SMART is an acronym for this organization. And it stands for stop mind control and ritual abuse today. And I go to this conference. And you know, I thought, I don't know, I don't know what I thought, you know, it was supposed to be about mind control and ritual abuse. So that sounds interesting. Go check it out. But you go there. And you see these people were actually licensed therapists talking the most crass delusions you could possibly think of. And I got there and they were actually selling, they're actually selling electromagnetic beam blocking hats. That's, you know, that's standard, muttering, delusional St. Vagrant kind of stuff, you know.

00:16:18 Matt Dwyer: What is that supposed to do? Keep...

00:16:22 Doug Misicko: it's, it's the tinfoil hat theory, you know. So, you know, obviously, you have very disturbed people there. And there was some old woman who know morbidly obese in, in elderly and she was talking about how her family was all part of the satanic cult, and her rheumatoid arthritis was even due to the ritual abuse she had, and she had been saying that she had a some kind of insulin reaction or whatever, she was having sugar level problems, she was diabetic. And she was describing the symptoms of, of mind control and ritual abuse. And they sounded like she needed to go back to a doctor and talk about her her insulin levels or whatever. And that's what kind of struck me as the as the real crime of this is that here was a woman who obviously needed medical attention, and needed legitimate psychiatric help. And here she was, amongst these professionals who were were feeding her delusion, and probably helping her stay away from her family, which might be the only people right now who would help her. So I could instantly see that people were being victimized by this. In the organization smart is run by this little shit named Neil brick. He's, he's actually, when I first saw him, he's this staggering little more on with his greasy comb over in thick glasses. And he's very short, very frail. And not only is he not in shape now, but he looks like he never could have been in shape. And I described this in a piece I wrote. And, you know, of course, some of his defenders say was really low brow of me to talk about his physical appearance, but I made the point because he claims that he was this secret assassin for the MK Ultra Illuminati Freemason CIA set within the US government and he recovered these memories later on. And so I just couldn't imagine this guy being set out at sent out as the government hitman. But so I wrote this piece about the conference on process.org, which is a website I do with a couple other guys. And I talked about the ridiculous things that were being talked about there, you know, up to and including a woman talking about how she was personally abused by one of the Nazi scientists. She hadn't been all of 40 years old, you know, and she said she was handled by one of the one of Hitler's own Nazi scientists. Well, Kimberly said that when she was also talking about how he was using demonic harmonics to open up quantum portals and that kind of thing, I mean, really unhinged. But anyways, so I wrote this piece and he decided to sue for defamation. That's a suit I still have pending right now. But what's funny about the defamation suit is not a single point, a single factual point in the article is being contested in this defamation suit. So I guess that gives you an idea that that pretty much confirms that there's nothing that can be fought there. Instead him in some greasy lawyer port Overwatch. Anything they could find written about him on the internet, and decided to attribute it all to me. So So anyways, I'm still fighting that too right now. But brick is very open with his delusions. He wrote about it. He's written about it. onlines thing, he even did some speech, he has the full text of it. I have it up here he was talking about last summer after the conference. So keep in mind, this is after one of his conference. So he's already invested in this idea of government abuse and everything. So he says, after the conference, we went to a restaurant, after dinner, all of a sudden, I had a very strong AB reaction. All at once I kind of felt that I'd hit I'd had the wind knocked out of me, but it was much stronger. I felt like I knew I was Illuminati, or whatever, at the moment, or at least government and deep called, I was very disorientated. And after finding my car, I was very scared and unable to find my way to the highway for quite a while, I realized that this was programming, I thought that the police or whoever were going to get me, because I had remembered. And even after finding the highway and getting home, I was terrified and scared that I would be killed, that someone would break in or come and get me. So this guy has an attack of paranoia. He's already invested in this idea of government mind control, and Illuminati calls. He puts it in that context that his paranoia has struck him because they're coming to kill him. It's incredible. And this guy is a licensed therapist. That's the that's the that's the crime of it.

00:21:24 Matt Dwyer: Now, these guys fucking believe this bullshit? Or do they? Are the con artists?

00:21:30 Doug Misicko: So that's always the big question like, do they really believe this shit? And you can't. I think there's an interplay between being a con and being delusional yourself. You know, I think they convince themselves of it at times. And other times, it's just kind of a convenient, scapegoating technique. I, I don't think there's a real clear distinction you can make between being a con person being entirely delusional. But Neil brick, I mean, it sounds to me. He might need some help. Yeah. He's really just driving a spontaneous panic attack in. And I just, I don't think he's well, and that's, you know, but the real outrage there, though, is against whoever would employ him this, this mental health agency of Massachusetts can actually be loads. And I would like to know if they disclosed any of the people he's working with. I mean, they should have some serious questions about his own mental health. And you know, that it plays in, they can't say that this doesn't play in with his, his professional life. I can't imagine it doesn't. I mean, if this person really believes that this kind of trauma theory that personal problems can be caused by the suppressed trauma that I don't see how it couldn't overlap with your, with your therapy work.

00:23:04 Matt Dwyer: My girlfriend had an experience where a therapist was like, trying to probe and like, saying that, like, maybe they should do hypnosis and find some memories that and she was smart enough to be like, yeah, none of that happened. Like...

00:23:19 Doug Misicko: Well, it's not a matter, that's the thing. It's not a matter of being smart. You know, I mean, if she was a bit more distressed, and only just a bit more trusting of the authority, then because that's the real sad part about this is after I went to this mind control conference, and I wrote this piece, the the backlash is, is amazing. These are these people are very invested in this. So they throw a fit, you know, Neal brick, and his, you know, he's trying to sue now of course, and in this people who follow Him, they were firebombing the the article online, I was writing for examiner.com they were calling up the editor, they're harassing him daily. And they finally pulled the article A they gave up their weak need, they're not a real news outlet by any means. And they just didn't want the trouble so they pulled it but they, the thing is, is they take this kind of moral high ground, they've learned what works for them in what really terrifies people is the accused of pedophilia, or being or defending pedophilia, or anything else. And so they take up the banner as though they're fighting against pedophilia. They don't really care about children, they don't care about victims of pedophilia, unless you're talking about them in particular, you know, they have this kind of victim culture where when they're talking about victims, they're talking about themselves in a very self serving self and self entitled self absorbed narcissistic way and what they mean is that the world owes them everything because they've declared themselves a victim. And even if you can disprove their victim status, all you're doing is claiming that child abuse doesn't occur. And that's what I get, I get this kind of defamation of myself all over the internet where people claim I'm defending pedophiles or whatever, or that I don't think pedophilia exists or that child abuse happens. I mean, nothing could be further from the truth. I think one can both acknowledge the plight of children and it and agree that wearing an electromagnetic beam blocking hat ways.

00:25:36 Matt Dwyer: Yeah, I mean, I had, I have first hand experience with people using this kind of garbage as much as manipulation. My, my axe was, for years told stories of how her uncle abused her and stuff and, and was saying it was repressed and and it was, and then she just used an inch, then she admitted it was a lie. But the whole time, she was like using it to like, Sue, Starbucks. And then after she said, it was alive, she came back and says, like, oh, no, it was repressed memory, it was my father. And she tried to sue her father. And it was like this weird pattern of like, I'm gonna say, I got sexually abused for money, and like, was using the whole repressed memory, and it was all that narcissism. And, and it was narcissism playing victim and all that stuff, you just said to get money. And it's like, people do lie about this shit. And I kind of believe it was almost like a conscious manipulation on her part to just be like, Oh, I'll use this for money.

00:26:34 Doug Misicko: They do I in and they don't have to lie to that. That's the thing that I actually got off course. And now you reminded me. Sorry, I was up last night, someone's birthday party I was at last night. So I think I went off course for a bit there. But I was talking about how these people don't have to be stupid, you know, they just have to be in distress and believe in the authority of this guy who's telling them they must have repressed these things. Because the symptoms all match. You know, you don't have to be stupid to buy into that you just don't know better. But you know, some people are not into the topic or whatever. But there's a there's what's being called false memory syndrome. And what's been found is that people who go through this kind of indoctrination with the psychiatrist or whatever, they go through these hypnosis sessions, they visualize these things, they put this emotional value onto these narratives. They they cry in the therapists office. And that in itself is considered evidence that this all must be true, because there is a some motive value on what they're recalling, or supposedly recalling. You know, it resonates with them, it must be true. I mean, never mind the fact that people can cry watching a movie or whatever else, you know, topics come up that kind of thing. Narratives are a motive. But they begin to believe these things. And there's there's no doubt that they actually do believe them. You know, and not in every case, I'm sure there's cases where people are just lying. Or it seems to me like there's a lot of cases where these people do have a lot of doubt. And you'll see that within this kind of victim culture. It's all about retaining this belief that shouldn't need this kind of maintenance, if it's really a true story and really, truly believed in. But it's, it takes it seems to progress into this delusion that overtakes their entire life. And it's not, it's not necessarily a lie. In fact, Professor Richard McNally at Harvard did a study on people who are abducted by aliens, people who say they were abducted by aliens. And he took this as, as a group of people you could study who, who had false memories, because he wasn't going to exercise the notion that they actually had been abducted by aliens. I know, some people would, but but I don't either. Anyway, anyway, he found that when they had this yurman imagery, you know, if they had this kind of narrative that they would read aloud, that would explain the image that would describe the imagery under which they were supposed to been traumatized by these aliens. Their response, their psycho physical response, which, you know, was measuring their, their skin resistance and these kinds of measures, physical measurements of trauma. They were the same as people who had undergone actual confirmed trauma, like people who had been who battle situations or whatever else, and were suffering Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. When they were confronted with their narrative of trauma. They had the same reaction as these people who were recalling these false narratives of trauma. So Once you've processed it and encoded it in that way, as a real trauma, it really is a real trauma. So the damage that is being done to people, victimizing them with a narrative of trauma that didn't happen. It's unbelievable. It's a crime against humanity, especially when you're attaching the person's family to this saying, well, obviously, you don't remember your father raping you or whatever else. Now he's implicated too. And now the client is holding a delusion of something that didn't happen in one that takes them apart from their family, when that one that really narrates them as a victim. It's just, there's nothing good about this at all.

00:30:43 Matt Dwyer: I mean, and that's it, it's a the lives that must have been ruined by that. I mean, if this, somebody is like, Yeah, my dad raped me and his, he didn't. I mean, people don't, people are going to believe that, you know, they're not going to side with a guy who potentially raped somebody like this. People just don't think that way half the time.

00:31:02 Doug Misicko: Well, and lives continue to be ruined. And the thing is, is you may have heard these stories about some of these therapists being brought to trial for malpractice on these things. But the fact of the matter is, those guys are most of those guys, the the important ones, they're still in practice, and they're still promoting the same shit. And there was a big case of Bennett Braun, he was he's a guy who really helped develop this whole idea in the in the 80s, and 90s. And he had a, I had a patient, who eventually sued him for malpractice. And she was an inpatient, he was pumping her full of all kinds of drugs and giving her this weird narrative about Illuminati Bloodlines and cannibalism and everything else. And finally, she got out of the hospital, she cleared off the drug, she looked around for confirmation of this whole story she developed as an inpatient. She just realized it wasn't true. And she sued them. And that turned out to be a big case, he lost his His license was only suspended for a while, I guess. He actually didn't have his license for a bit, but he's back in practice now. But it what's more common is that these guys don't lose the license at all. Even even under the malpractice cases. I was talking to a woman named Roma heart. And she was a patient of Dr. Colin Ross. And Ross is really instrumental in in developing this whole idea. And he still runs this. He's running a hospital based trauma program in Dallas. And he is his program in three other hospitals. There are two other hospitals, I don't know. He has the Ross Institute. But he started out in why, in Canada, when he was working with Roma Hart, and she went in, I think she had like, a sore foot or something like that. And she was looking for an extension on her medical leave or something like that she was a full time student or whatever. And Ross decided that she had multiple personality disorder and she ends up is the most remarkable place you should look it up. I have it on process.org A full interview with her, along with these embedded affidavits and documents and everything else to attest to the veracity of this tale, or so. But she ends up with this idea of multiple personalities, his massive satanic cult conspiracy, and Ross's record is very, very questionable. He ends up leaving Canada to go to Texas and in the heat of these accusations, apparently, and I do have a sworn affidavit on process.org that claims he was actually fired quietly from Canada. So he comes over to Texas with no real repercussions in Canada. And then in Texas, another woman Sue's and if you read her her affidavit, it's very similar to Roma hearts, you know, the same idea that he was that he was telling her or coercing her to believe that she was a victim of this satanic conspiracy. And it ruined her life ruined her relationship with her family, all those things. So he leaves the Dallas hospital. They pay, they pay a settlement to the to Martha and Tayo is the name of the woman who's suing in Texas. So what happens with the settlements is the hospitals though offer a massive payoff. And usually the the understanding then or the agreement is that there's a good Order that on the on the patient, the patient's not allowed to speak of it right of it or whatever else. And then then the perpetrator, they've gotten rid of him from their hospital or mental health service or whatever else. So they're not concerned and they just go off and do their practice elsewhere. And that appears to be the case with Ross. And that's part of what I wish would be revised here is that these people can't be just shuffled around. It's like the, like the Vatican pedophilia thing, you know, they move these priests around to different spots once the heat gets too hot. And then they then they pretend nothing ever happened.

00:35:49 [plug]

00:36:57 Matt Dwyer: Now does this science community or whatever the how do they allow? How is this allowed to keep happening? Like, shouldn't they be like, This is not a legit thing. People can't pedal this bullshit, like, how is it being allowed to continue?

00:37:16 Doug Misicko: Well, you know, there are some good people fight the good fight. But there's also a lot of weak kneed approach to this. It's kind of the norm you know, I I think sometimes I'm looked upon is pretty low brow because I do make the alien abduction parallel and the in the past life regression parallel. And you know, that's often considered bizarre and in just kind of a lowbrow place to go and I don't understand that it the the thing is professionals within the ISSTD and that kind of thing. They're kind of been allowed to control the narrative, they've been allowed to control the argument. And so they they strip it down to the the idea that we're just arguing whether people can repress trauma or not. And that's really not the whole argument here. I mean, if we were to get a real solid case study that showed somebody was sexually abused, and they completely repressed these the the episodes in this neat kind of redaction they've got going on in their mind. It wouldn't do anything to help us prove that alien abduction is real, that the satanic call conspiracy has ever existed. And I just feel like we can see too much to these people. We can see too much to these people. When when we say well, but I'm not a Satanist. You know, which I I stopped doing, you know, like, What do you mean, when you say Satanist? You know, the satanists they're talking about never existed? You know? I just feel like we owe these people nothing. And they get everything because they claim that they were victims when I'm convinced that most of them were not ever.

00:39:02 Matt Dwyer: I mean, isn't it if this theory of repressed memory and trauma blah, blah, blah, would like wouldn't dude's forget they were in Vietnam. He wouldn't they just be like, Oh, no, I was out baking. Like, is it?

00:39:14 Doug Misicko: Yeah. That's always been the... Yeah, that's always been an issue. And there's been studies on on the Holocaust victims too and...

00:39:21 Matt Dwyer: Holocaust children too, I mean, if it was just like a thing of like, your youth, that seems like there would be a ton of people from the Holocaust, you wouldn't remember that.

00:39:28 Doug Misicko: Right, There's always this bad research that is done to try to try to justify this. And they've actually used people who who subscribe to this idea of massive repression. They've actually used those kinds of studies to try to justify their their position by giving these people these surveys and trying to get them to recall very specific facts. If they forgotten anything. They say that this is evidence For sure traumatic repression. When that's not the issue, of course, as you said, you'd have to forget that you were in the Holocaust, you'd have to forget that you were in the war, you'd have to forget, you know that these major episodes were happening. In particular, you know, not just certain, not just certain aspects of it, I mean, you're sure to forget certain things. Like, they've done studies of trauma, when it comes to the case somebody robbed, right. And guy puts a gun in somebody's face. And then they run off. And the person has no idea what the person's face looks like, you know, they just, they just don't know. They don't forget that they were robbed, you know, they but they don't know what the guy's face looks like. And the thing is, they they're on this kind of hyper focus, you know, they're focused on the garden or whatever they look in there just staring at the gun, and that's it. They catch nothing else. This is not evidence at all for this idea of massive repression. The idea of massive repression is something completely different. In this kind of shoddy work is his scientific irresponsibility, and they get away with this kind of scientific irresponsibility, and they shouldn't, you know, these people really shouldn't be out of their jobs. At best, they should be out of their jobs. You've got a guy, Randy Nobert. He's a professor at Alliant international university based in Los Angeles. And he's a professor there. He's a program director, over there also, at Alliant University, was at least and here's a guy who's who's put forward ideas that had been outright debunked. You know, he actually is an associate of this Neil brick guy. It's smart. He's actually teaching kids he did a course on ritual abuse. I've seen a syllabus for where he was actually talking about debunk things like the McMartin preschool trial, which were usually if it's brought up in a higher learning setting, talking about prosecutorial misconduct, or moral panics or whatever else. But novelette goes well beyond academic freedom, because you know, there is a lot of leeway for academic freedom where, you know, you can follow the results wherever you want, the school should step in or whatever. But if you're misrepresenting empirical evidence, I think he should be fired. He should be disqualified. He should have never been hired to begin with, for one thing is the thesis he wrote when he graduated from Texas was a work of astrology. You know, in this assholes testimony helped put people in prison who are still in prison right now, for a case for a case of daycare, ritual abuse. But here I have a thing pulled up here. It's that was written and said novel, it cites studies as well presenting empirical evidence of ritual abuse, according quoting short statements from them out of context, when the truth is that the study's authors state that their work does not support ritual abuse conspiracy theory. One example of this is studies by Dr. Gail Goodman, Dr. Philips shaver, and bet bottom cited by novelette, repeatedly as empirical evidence, despite Goodmans own summation of these studies, quote, Our survey revealed that there was essentially no hard evidence of organized child abusing satanic calls that have infiltrated preschools, or the FBI, where they had kidnapped or slain babies. In contrast, there was much indirect evidence of clinical induction of false memories and plentiful evidence of religion related abuse, including sexual abuse by Catholic priests, so on etc. So he's able, you know, he's, he's comfortable contextualizing these things that are actually disproving his theory into supporting it. And this this idiots treating or teaching the up and coming.

00:43:57 Matt Dwyer: It's, it's also it's like they believe, like when you said the one woman she talks about levitating, and it's like, it's weird that a large group of people are like, oh, yeah, that's real. It's like that they...

00:44:09 Doug Misicko: Well, they ignore that. That's the funny thing. I don't know if you know about this. But when that woman wrote the book, 22 Faces I, I wrote a review for about the book for Skeptical Inquire. And what really first tipped me off about 22 Faces is that Colin Ross, this respected dissociation expert, who is also a past president of the ISSTD he wrote the foreword to this book in Ross has also written the dissociative, dissociative scale, I forget the full, full title of it. But there's a kind of survey that's given the client sets meant to measure their level of dissociation. And there's questions on there like have you had us Like experiences or, or possession, that kind of thing, which is a legitimate question to have on a psychiatric survey, because you're just measuring what the client believes, right? It might be. It's certainly relevant if the client believes they've had this kind of paranormal experience. But when you have Colin Ross endorsing a book, like 22 Faces where these things are actually supposed to happen, it shows that, you know, indicates that he actually believes this stuff. And he's the guy writing these kinds of surveys. In any case, another person who endorsed the book 22 Faces was also a president of the ISSTD Joanna's Silberg. And she wrote that, you know, people who work within the field of dissociation studies or whatever, are well aware of the types of abuse that are described in this book 22 Faces, like I said, 22 Faces as these levitating Satanists. It does talk about the psychic ability of the protagonist, demonic possession. And in the narrative doesn't even make sense. It's not even internally consistent. And I was just going to write this review and leave it alone. And then it turned out, somebody messaged me and said, this woman is she's actually invited on Dr. Phil, they're going to talk on Dr. Phil about this book. And I thought, how on the fuck is this happening? You know, anybody read this book, it is the most ridiculous piece of shit you could possibly pick up and subject yourself to. And I had to read the whole thing because I was writing a review for it. But I reached out to Dr. Phil's producers and said, you know, and gave them a summary of how already discredited and debunked the woman who wrote this book already was and said, I was willing to speak with them. And they didn't get back to me. And in frustration, I wrote an open letter to Dr. Phil and posted on examiner just outlining all the problems with his book in in mentioning that, that I just wanted this time stamped article to be up online so people could judge his credibility when they were looking this up. And they could see what he already should have known before he had her on the show at all. And so she got on Dr. Phil. And the thing was, it seemed the show was delayed it originally was supposed to be on the past Halloween, and got delayed up until February or whatever. And they presented her as his therapist. And it turns out she's unlicensed, as I said. And it she didn't go over well on Dr. Phil, because it came out that she had worked out this contract with the mentally ill woman she was writing about in which she would collect all the proceeds from from the book and a woman whose life story it presumably was was getting nothing from it. So the audience was disgusted, the doctor fill out. But the thing was, it really didn't. It was kind of amazing to me that that was the point of contention. I mean, that that is something the idea that she's exploiting this woman that just that's no small thing there. But but when you have a story that obviously by any rational standards couldn't be true. I think that should have come up a few times and that dialogue as well.

00:48:40 Matt Dwyer: Did they did he play into this sensational side of the story as well, though, I mean, regardless of...

00:48:45 Doug Misicko: Well, he did mention it, he said it was kind of heady stuff and he said it in kind of a skeptical fashion. But he mentioned the the Nazi satanic mind control, but he didn't. You know, he didn't go into the openly supernatural things. I mean, some somewhere in the real world, there could be Monty Jewish Nazi Satanists, I guess, you know, it was all bizarre ideology for them to hold to but but you get into a new territory when you're talking about people levitating and demonic possession and those kinds of things. And I felt like that that should be mentioned that what we're dealing with here is a supernatural horror story. But there's another case going on right now to Castlewood case. There was a eating disorders clinic in St. Louis. And there was a husband wife team over there, Mark Schwartz and Laurie Gallopin. And they are treating these people and they're now being sued. And the claim is that they were instilling people with this belief in a satanic conspiracy. And of course, there's the necessary overlaps with the ISSTD and that kind of thing. And the, in the four cases that are bought against them now are very consistent with this idea of false memories of traumatic abuse being instilled through hypnosis sessions or sodium manatal, or whatever they were using. And I guess the thinking was that eating disorders are our evidence of, of this kind of abuse. Yeah. In I go through the unpleasant. The, the unpleasant business of speaking to families who've lost their daughters to these ideas, you know, they go into these treatment centers, and then they're never going to talk to them again, because they've been indoctrinated in this idea that they were abused by their family. And I talk to these families, and they're devastated, you know, and they're coming to me, you know, and what can I do? Right, and that's, that's the rage of it all. I mean, I want to see these people's careers destroyed. I don't want to see them moved around. And now you have Mark Schwartz and his wife, her former wife, Laurie, now moving into Avalon Malibu treatment center. And it I really hope there's not another payoff. I hope the case goes goes to its full fruition and that the the victims don't get along themselves to be paid off because the veracity of their claim should be should be brought out.

00:51:37 Matt Dwyer: Were they saying that it was satanic abuse or just sexual abuse, these two dipshits?

00:51:44 Doug Misicko: No, I the satanic thing plays into it. I don't think I don't think all the cases cite Satanism, but they cite. They cite this kind of widespread, you know, conspiracy of abuse.

00:51:59 Matt Dwyer: I mean, are they are they all these assholes? Like, crazy Christians? Or is it like you said, so? It sounds like tent revival bullshit. Like, in the in the olden days, it sounds crazy, that people would be like, oh, yeah, Satan's making his blanket sounds just ludicrous.

00:52:16 Doug Misicko: Well, that's, that's how it got headway. Originally, you know, the, originally the book, Michel remembers came out. And that was a supernatural horror story to where I mean, Satan actually made an appearance. And in the book, Michelle remembers, and this was actually supposed to be taken as a serious investigation into a psychiatric condition. But it was written by this crazed Catholic moron. Psychiatrist, he really helped spread this idea, bring it around, he actually had been speaking to people around the McMartin area, you know, he came and did a lecture and whatever, and helped that whole thing kind of take off. So it really, it really resonated with the, with crazed, conservative Christians, because it gave them a devil to fight kind of thing. But it also, unfortunately, it really took off his moral panic, because it also resonated with a lot of different groups too. So it doesn't necessarily have to be a Christian thing anymore. And a lot of times, it's not, but at the time, it really resonated with feminists because they felt that they needed to take this up, because people were finally acknowledging this problem of rape and abuse that's going on in the background, and they have these really overblown numbers of, of how prevalent these problems are, that they wanted to hang on to. And so it became this kind of, it became a religious became its own religion outside of any of any branch of Christianity or whatever else. The woman, the con woman who wrote 22 faces as a Mormon, and there seems to be a lot of it seems to have caught on with with quite a few Mormons, actually, it was one of the primary cases Paul Ingram was one where his girls, this was like in Washington State somewhere. His girls went to some Christian revival camp or whatever, where the person there was putting out this idea that you need to remember your abuse, and they decided that he had abused them. So he was very perplexed and thought they couldn't be lying. And he was brought in for questioning and said he, he really didn't know what this was all about. And then he became convinced they actually convinced him that he was repressing the fact that he had abused them. You know, and at one point, they actually got him to agree with this and the poor guy spent this time in prison, but the thing about Yeah, But the thing about that was he was, I think one of the important things to know there is he was part of the charismatic church, you know, in the charismatic church. There's a church that will still do exorcisms, you know, and I feel like holding on to supernaturalism in general, that's always kind of been my fight is to, is against supernaturalism in general, and that I feel it it it opens you up to be a victim to this kind of thinking, yeah, it supernaturalism opens you up to be victimized by these bizarre ideas that there's forces working against you and internally that you can't see or divine and some kind of expert can or, or priest or whatever can decipher this for you.

00:55:53 Matt Dwyer: Yeah, it's amazing to me that people still choose to believe this bullshit, like anything supernatural, like astral projection...

00:56:03 Doug Misicko: It's amazing to me that these people can still be in practice, like I said, the ISSTD, I mean, that organization should be a mark of shame. I mean, if you belong to somebody belongs to the ISSTD I, I would say I would not recommend anybody go to anybody with any affiliation with those fools. They're non scientific organization, they, I am convinced they've done more harm than good, and they will continue to do so. And they're holding on to discredited and debunked beliefs that are part of an era of witch hunting and in are more akin to ideas of demonic possession than, than anything that has anything to do with. With empirical research. There's another guy Ken Ken Olson, he was a psychiatrist for a woman I know her name Harry storm, but he also treated a woman named Nadean Cool. And he persuaded her that she had some 126 alternate personalities and included amongst those were Satan, some angels and and even a duck. But it's, it's stated that give look up some of the news reports on this it stated that Olson charged Nadean Cool's insurance company for group therapy, because she was all these different personalities. That's insanity, and peaceful practice. This guy is still in practice at Bridger psychiatric service in Montana. So these places, these places and these institutions should be made dancer for that. I think the American Psychiatric Association is completely failed mental health consumers by not issuing a definite censure on this, because this stuff goes to court. And guys like home Ross come in as an expert witness. And they say, you know, yeah, well, this is this is the theory, this is something that's in the Diagnostic Statistical Manual of dissociative identity disorder is in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, even despite its lack of scientific backing, it sits in there. And they say, Well, this is, you know, this is kind of standard treatment. So, you know, the, it's like it can be held culpable for no going wrong, or whatever else.

00:58:40 Matt Dwyer: It does that kind of personality disorder isn't actually an actual existing thing, where it's like, you know, like almost a Robin Williams bit where it's like, I'm not like you said, like, is suddenly that woman turned into a duck and like Walker, it's like, is that real?

00:58:58 Doug Misicko: Oh, we were really wouldn't fucking know now, would we, with all this irresponsibility going on? That's another thing. This isn't like, they're not doing serious investigations of this. They're holding on to something debunked and it really helps muddy the waters on certain things. I mean, there's some people of the thinking that that this kind of multiple personality state can exist in such rare occurrences, you know, but it seems like in the cases of the crap that guys like Mark Schwartz or Olson do claims against them are accurate, then what we have is what's called a socio cognitive construct. These people are trained to behave in a multiple personality way. They're, they're segmented into multiple personalities by this kind of, by this kind of coercion, it ends up being an actual condition, you know, but it's something that's been it's an eye otra genic condition is what what that's called and that means it's a condition that's brought to them through the therapy clinically. And that that stands up to what I've gotten from the people I've interviewed like Sherry storm from Kenneth Olsen. She feels she really has suffered multiple personality disorder, but that she got that disorder from her treatment with Olson. You know, you have him, getting her to contextualize herself, his various personalities, getting herself getting her to contextualize her moods, or whatever else or her states as different personalities. He's labeling her under different names. And so she feels it made her scattered it Did you know, it was it's something to get over. And that was another that in, I got a very similar story from a woman who underwent this with alien abduction treatment, she went to a guy, David Jacobs and went under these hypnotic sessions. And she felt that it really developed in her this condition. So and that also, that's also an interesting thing to keep in mind. Because some of these people will claim, well, you're claiming that multiple personality disorder, dissociative identity disorder doesn't exist. And we have these functional MRIs that show that these people have these different brain patterns when we call upon different personalities than somebody who doesn't. Who isn't diagnosed with this problem. Well, that doesn't address the argument at all. You know, the argument really is whether this is a socio cognitive construct, whether it was an eichine condition, or whether the condition was naturally occurring sometime before they went into treatment. And if past trauma would have anything to do with that, and there's no evidence of that.

01:01:59 Matt Dwyer: Remarkable, it's remarkable how many fucking lives must just be devastated because of this. It's insane. It's like it's...

01:02:08 Doug Misicko: And they get away with it every day, you know, and they hold these these conferences, and they say the most delusional things. And if you say anything against them, they paint you as a pedophile a Satanist, or whatever else. And it just, it drives me fucking insane. Because I really do have these people emailing me all the time, begging me to help them and that kind of thing. And there's not much I can, I can do. I mean, I wish I could. And I really want to, I really want to bring this to a stop, I really want. And I think these people should be, I think these people should be avenged, you know, if the claims the Castlewood families have against Mark Schwartz and Larry Gallopin are accurate. They should be in prison, you know, they shouldn't just lose their jobs, they should be in fucking prison. And they should never in, you know, they, they shouldn't be taken seriously. On the topic ever again, they should live in infamy for this, because, and that might sound very drastic and brutal. But the thing is, I've been at this for years, I've tried correcting these people, many times, they ignore it, you know, they you can show them the harm they're doing, you can throw it in their very faces. And when all they'll do is accuse you of being a pedophile. And that goes beyond, you know, infuriating.

01:03:33 Matt Dwyer: That doesn't make sense. Like, I mean, like you like it's like, oh, yeah, I'm against this. So I must also diddle children. Like, it's like, completely illogical?

01:03:45 Doug Misicko: Well, what I was getting a lot is, you know, I started out investigating these calls and going after the process, and, you know, I was interested in this whole Satanic Panic thing. So talking to self identified Satanists and everything. And so I was all through the years, I was getting this kind of bullshit, like, well, you're, you're a Satanist in, in arguing it saying, like, where do you get this? You know, why do I have to be a Satanist? And then, you know, as you know, finally, I just, I decided to go with it and say, Well, yeah, I'm a Satanist. You know, I'll define. I'll define that on my own terms. But it's like, that's just another thing that shouldn't be conceded. There are self identified Satanists, you know, and their doctrine has absolutely nothing to do with what these people are talking about, right? I mean, we shouldn't even we shouldn't even demonize Satan this for the benefit of these people. Well, you know, there's there's just no we all need to have a witch on based on placating any any delusional group.

01:04:54 Matt Dwyer: And that sort of Satanists that they say? We are like, "Oh, Satanists, they diddle kids and drink goat blood" like that shit doesn't really exist, does it? I mean, it doesn't.

01:05:05 Doug Misicko: No, it doesn't. And before that, I mean, you get this kind of interplay between culture and certain individuals. Like I wrote about this case this kid Sean Sellars, he, he killed his parents and killed the convenience store clerk. And he blamed Satanism. And so you know, at the time this was held up as Oh, look, this, this all this stuff about Satanism is real. But the funny thing was, is Sean Sellars never claimed to have interaction with any satanic cult. And he fully admitted that this was his complete own ad hoc creation of Satanism. And it was based on all the panic material at the time. So it was really the anti Satanists who created that situation to begin with. Then he had a case like Richard Ramirez, and then he was during the Satanic Panic, too. You know, he was just a very misanthropic person who was a psychopath. And so it was convenient to use the kind of satanic imagery but as for this idea of a parallel society of Satanists doing these kinds of things, just in the name of evil and detach from, and kind of in this, these indoctrinated psychopaths said, that just doesn't exist. And I gave a lecture on Satanism, the idea of Satanism. And for this cultural study of at Harvard, at the Graduate School of Education, and at the beginning of the lecture, I have these people fill out these three by five cards to write down either like, the, I think, the five, most deplorable anti human things they could think of any group of people engaging in. And, you know, these were, these were uniformly consistent for the most part, you know, a few people tried to be funny or whatever. But, of course, you have cannibalism, you have child rape, murder, human sacrifice, those kinds of things. So, you know, everybody thinks of those things, because those are what we consider deplorable things. Right? People thinking of them isn't evidence that they've all undergone it, you know, and yet you have these narratives of abuse, where they say, well, these are very consistent narratives. You know, they've all claimed that there's been this kind of child sexual abuse, child murder, or blood drinking that kind of thing. Therefore, it's true. It's well, now we have this kind of limited menu of what we consider the most deplorable things. You know?

01:07:36 Matt Dwyer: Now, if there was somebody who was I don't know if somebody needed to seek out guess help or like, like you said, people come to you for help. Where are places people could go sort of to get that help that they people seek from you against these fucking frauds?

01:07:57 Doug Misicko: Well, I would definitely like to know about it. And I have a contact form on dysgenics.com, d-y-s-g-e-n-i-c-s.com, in a lot of my articles about this, on on process.org but the... probably one of the best organizations to have worked on this since since it was not easy to do so when you could really be villainize this while we still are, is the False Memory Syndrome Foundation, which I feel I need to say I'm not a spokesperson for the False Memory Syndrome Foundation, I advocate for what they stand for. And they've I think they've republish some of my material. But the conspiracy theorists always, always say that I'm an official spokesperson for the FMSF and I'm not so but anyways, they're a great organization to look into their their websites kind of outdated now, but I think they're revamping it. And we do have a closed Facebook group, the false memory syndrome Action Network where we try to talk about what we can do to bring this bring this issue out into the open and stop it. So if people want to apply there, they might want to send me a message on Facebook first because I try to filter out the the fools, you know, because there's a lot of angry people we really do get assaulted on this kind of thing. There's a there's a brave woman, Jeanette Bartha. She also runs a runs a website mental health matters.com And she was a victim of one Richard Hicks at friend's Hospital in Philadelphia. She runs a great website, he tries to advocate for these kinds of things and come up with different ways we can help it too but I I really don't know. I you know, I've been trying to figure it out for years what I can do to really cure to really stop this from being a problem, I really thought the piece I published about Colin Ross could ruin his career. But he still seems to get away with it.

01:10:13 Matt Dwyer: It's amazing. Well, thank you very much, Doug. For all of this. It was that was pretty. Pretty awesome. So and once again, can you before we wrap it up? Do you mind just saying what your websites are again, just so people can get that?

01:10:31 Doug Misicko: Yeah, dysgenics.com in dysgenics.com is good, because I have several people working with me on that site who are involved in this. In this issue, and also a journalist named Ed Cara, is writing on dysgenics. And he's really following the Castlewood case from the eating disorders clinic. And disgenics.com and process.org are really the primary sites. But I think my biggest fans are some of the conspiracy theorists who still buy into this stuff. And I... you know, my closing message for them is go ahead and fucking sue me.

01:11:19 Matt Dwyer: That's pretty great.

01:11:21 Doug Misicko: Thank you, Matt. If you ever if you're ever so inclined, see if you can get a get a little toad like Richard Kluft from the ISSTD and one of the primary advocates for dissociative amnesia to come on and debate me. I tried to talk to these people and they won't talk to me so....

01:11:44 Matt Dwyer: That would be great. Thank you for listening to conversations with Dwyer, please peruse the feral audio page, check out their other shows. Listen to them. You're beautiful people.

01:12:42 [Outro]