Podcasts/GodlessRebelution-Ep93

Godless Rebelution Ep. 93 - With Doug Mesner (A.K.A. Lucien Greaves) II
Feb 19, 2016
Doug Mesner (A.K.A. Lucien Greaves), spokesperson for The Satanic Temple, was kind enough to join us via Skype from a sushi bar in Cambridge. He's a great guest, and we had a lot of fun with him both on, and off, air.
https://godlessrebelution.podbean.com/e/93-with-doug-mesner-aka-lucien-greaves-ii/

Transcript

[WIP]

Unknown Speaker 0:00 is only suitable for people aged 18 or over almost certainly have an add on theme

Unknown Speaker 0:05 and might well contain secrets or violence which are quite graphic. It may also contain explicit language including sexual swear words. Thanks for listening on tonight's episode of the godless revolution. We are joined via Skype by Doug Messner, aka Lucien Greaves, spokesman for the Satanic Temple. Doug joined us at a sushi bar in Cambridge, Massachusetts, so the audio is a little wonky, but the content was fabulous and we really really appreciate Doug joining us tonight. We

Unknown Speaker 0:32 also have the Bundys shit on the Lamanites Oh ding dongs Lily is dead and Republicans have spent all their arcade tokens on bubble gum now that it's the Democrats turn They're leaving.

Unknown Speaker 0:43 Oh, are their mouths full always. They don't swallow of bubble gum. So stay tuned everybody

Unknown Speaker 0:50 but here's what His revelation comes to him and he's kind of got all the stuff wiping lowering of the animal not wiping whipping. Also not touching I am I am dyslexic. I hope I'm not having

Unknown Speaker 1:03 a stroke. And an atheist almost always becomes a borders of

Unknown Speaker 1:11 eugenics and abortion.

Unknown Speaker 1:13 Swan is hungry for nuts. He will take them to Satan the Israel

Unknown Speaker 1:20 being a Satanist is an open declaration of revolt against counterproductive received wisdom and mindless wrote tradition.

Unknown Speaker 1:27 decapitate her head off.

Unknown Speaker 1:29 Oh, mama, welcome to the godless revolution. This is episode 93. I am Jan.

Unknown Speaker 1:41 I'm Ryan,

Unknown Speaker 1:42 and tonight we are joined via Skype by Doug Messner, aka Lucien Greaves, spokesperson for the Satanic Temple. How're you doing, Doug?

Unknown Speaker 1:51 Good. How are you?

Unknown Speaker 1:52 I'm doing really well. Man. I'm so excited to have you on the show again. Thank you.

Unknown Speaker 1:56 We are all thoroughly mesmerized at this point.

Unknown Speaker 2:01 Now we're all three very huge fans of the Satanic Temple. And you also, I've got some Satanic Temple stuff here on the wall. I've got I've got one of your signed pieces of art.

Unknown Speaker 2:13 What the same piece of art. When was I selling that?

Unknown Speaker 2:18 This was part of the reproductive rights campaign. Right. So I've gotten number three of 50 Apparently incorporates parts of like dollar bills. And

Unknown Speaker 2:31 George Washington, United States, kind of as a zombie.

Unknown Speaker 2:34 Yeah. All right, right. Yeah, I know. He's very cool.

Unknown Speaker 2:37 I like it very much. So the Satanic Temple, of course, has been very busy doing a whole lot of different things. The reason that I had contacted you initially to have you on the show was because of the the invocation in Phoenix and the members there in Phoenix wanting to I guess they're actually in Tucson, but they wanted to offer the invocation in Phoenix for the city count was at a city council meeting.

Unknown Speaker 3:01 Yeah, in you know, actually, we have members in Phoenix, which is funny, because that was kind of something we were considering, should we have people in Phoenix off to the location? Or should we let a few people in Tucson but the fact of the matter was, they didn't have that kind of local restriction, where it could be only people from Phoenix to offer the invocation to the Phoenix city council meeting. So I was perfectly fine with us having a couple of members from Tucson offer that because, well, a lot of people will look at that and think it's perfectly reasonable for the City Council to Phoenix to insist sets, people giving the invocations in Phoenix be Phoenix residents. I actually don't think that that's a reasonable restriction either. And I was all for pushing for people from outside of Phoenix give me a vocation because who's to say somebody who's homeless doesn't have residency shouldn't be allowed to speak at the City Council? Or if there's a protest for which you need a permit? Shouldn't people from Tucson be allowed to protest and in Phoenix and honestly, the local government should be able to show a provide a certain burden of proof that they have some compelling interest in limiting your your free speech before they put forward such restrictions anyway. So it was part of the issue. After we applied to put forward our invocation, they did try to change the standards to be completely local, but we would have been able to do that anyway.

Unknown Speaker 4:32 Yeah. Well sound like they tried to change the standards a whole lot just to make it so you guys couldn't be there, basically. So they could have their way without changing and making a new law. It seemed like right, well,

Unknown Speaker 4:43 well, they they tried to change it so that you had to be a resident of Phoenix to give the invocation. More problematically, they were trying to change it so that you need to be invited by a member of city council. Which is which opened gives the authority to the City Council to act as the arbiter of which is appropriate religious or political expression, the city council which, of course, is unconstitutional as it is,

Unknown Speaker 5:12 yeah. Cuz that would turn it into you like it represented by the religions that the city council agrees with not religions of all your constituents. Sure,

Unknown Speaker 5:20 yeah. And when they were trying to put forward these standards, these changing standards, the city council members were pushing for a revision of the standards were taking the social media, and outright saying that they were doing this try to block the Satanic Temple, which also, of course, was unconstitutional. Yeah. And then the city attorney was releasing the statement saying, Well, what's being proposed actually, as a broad change and standard, so the Satanic Temple couldn't sue, if this manages to block them in some way. But I released some statements pointing out, essentially nice fucking try. But all members who put through these, you know, who are trying to put through these measures are taking their social media explicitly stating that they're trying to block us from giving the invocation. And if you think these things can't be used in court, you're dead wrong. Yeah. Then they exceed To their credit, at least some of the some of the council members took my words to heart during city council meeting, and they acknowledge them. And they assumed that they were putting themselves in a position where they might, the city council might owe a couple of money. And that's what helped them help persuade them to put through the moment silence instead.

Unknown Speaker 6:38 So So ultimately, it was when so I thought today would initially be a great day to have you on the show, because today was the day that the invocation was supposed to be offered, right that members of the Satanic Temple, we're going to offer the invocation. And I was I was thinking that it would play out until the last minute. But ultimately, what happened was that the city council met and decided to have a moment of silence rather than actually offer any type of invocation going forward, correct.

Unknown Speaker 7:05 Yeah, that is the case. And, of course, then it was a question whether or not it would be still legal for them to in state the moment of silence retroactively to the point where they could block us from giving the invocation even though we applied and were approved prior to that decision by the city council. But the fact of the matter was is, you know, I figured being that they had put forward the moment of silence, which I thought was far better than having the the pre council meeting prayers. Did we really want to push to give our invocation anyway, and then give them this idea that that there is nothing left to lose, and they might as well reinstate fair policy? I would rather they don't have policy at all. Yeah, I

Unknown Speaker 7:53 mean, that makes it more fair for everybody for sure. And doesn't involve think about

Unknown Speaker 7:57 what you want to think about talk to your manager and friends in your head or whatever. Don't impose it on everybody else, a moment of silence neutral.

Unknown Speaker 8:05 Right. Yeah, I think I think that was a much better option for them. That's a much better option for anybody going forward, you know, not that they even need to have a moment of silence. I don't understand why that why that ever is even an issue why they have to have an invocation in the first place. And then when the

Unknown Speaker 8:19 shit about it, really, it was just, it was just something that could see that, that time before the city council meeting was just their way of, of not saying, Okay, we're killing prayer entirely.

Unknown Speaker 8:32 Well, yeah, I mean, it just, it seems like a huge waste of time. Regardless, you know, I mean, if you want to pray, then fucking do it in your car ahead of time. You don't need to, or do it in the hall or whatever. You don't need to you don't need to consume any kind of resources on any of that kind of bullshit.

Unknown Speaker 8:46 Yeah, no, that is not the place for it. If you had seen the city council meeting or considering this, you would see all kinds of problems of the public perception in the things these people are saying. Most a vast majority of people did not want to see the Satanic Temple give an implication that's what they're rallying against. But it was really disturbing to me as you saw a lot of people standing up and saying, Well, when we pledge of allegiance, we say, under God, or when you look at your money, you see In God We Trust and they were taking this to mean all the things we think it must mean to them. When we rally against God We Trust being on money or or under God being in the Pledge of Allegiance. It's to them a license, you know, they this to them affirms their exclusive rights on religious privilege an exemption and just the response we got in Phoenix was indicative to me of how vital that fight is to take In God We Trust off of money and in under God out of the practical reasons.

Unknown Speaker 9:50 I have a little article here that I'd like to read. It's it's not very long I've I've added my own little tidbits to it, but it's it's talking about the latest development and error Arizona says today was supposed to be a historic moment in Phoenix political history with the Satanic Temple delivering the invocation at the city council meeting in the name of religious freedom and to take their turn their first turn to doing so after Christians have prayer hog the podium. At these meetings for years, the Satanist have been redeemed. However, after the city council in neighboring Scottsdale accepted the temples request. They're expected to give their prayer sometime in April and in and in so doing will aid Scottsdale in what even amateurs assume as a move to undercut any potential legal battles they would face for denying the Satanic Temple. Even the rejection in Phoenix resulted in a small victory for non believers because the city council has committed to going out of their way to now only allow silent prayers. A spokesman spokesperson for the city's nonsense department is also reporting that in accordance with this, calling it not prayer prayer while still excluding Satan policy. They will be changing the city's official motto to it's hot as heck, hoping this will also fool people. Prior to the Phoenix cancellation, they released a transcript of the prayer asking members to quote embrace the Luciferian impulse to eat of the Tree of Knowledge and reason are solutions with agnosticism and all things holding fast only to that which is demonstrably true before ending with an obligatory hail satan. Citizens are understandably concerned raising objections like we Christians have nothing in common with the Satanist we don't want to eat from that tree praise Jesus. The temple which claims not to worship Satan, but instead views him as a metaphor for rebellion and rational inquiry inquiry applied to give the invocation with with Scottsdale because this city has no official policy on the prayer other than it be less than three minutes in length rules clearly set forth by the founding fathers in the establishment clause. Scottsdale Communications and Public Affairs Director Kelly corsets said, we were contacted by a member identifying themselves as with the Satanic Temple and treated them all equally, we look to book them at the next available meeting. And that happened to be in April. So that's that's a little bit exciting, then.

Unknown Speaker 12:05 Yeah, we seize that.

Unknown Speaker 12:09 Well, we should mention to you that you're that you are joining us via Skype from a sushi bar. Yep, that's right. A sushi bar in Cambridge.

Unknown Speaker 12:19 Yeah. Cambridge, Boston. Same.

Unknown Speaker 12:23 Christians go find

Unknown Speaker 12:24 him. No, I'm so excited to have you on the show tonight. I don't know if you happen to catch our last show. But we had David Silverman on I love

Unknown Speaker 12:35 David. So yeah, he's a great guy, the American Atheist conference, and he kept walking around telling everybody that he was the genius that that thought to invite me to a conference.

Unknown Speaker 12:51 Yeah, I like to have a whole lot he was he was actually in town for part of his book tour. So So I had convinced him to come to Salt Lake and then worked to schedule the venue and have a little speaking, engagement and q&a and book signing and all of that. And while he was here, I had him come and join us in the studio. So he's actually here in the studio with us. And we recorded last week. That was a lot of fun. But there was there was a part of the show, where I asked him for his views on the Satanic Temple and the work that you guys do, because I don't know if you're aware. But there's there's another, you know, fairly fairly well known podcast of other atheists that have kind of shit on the Satanic Temple in the near past, I guess, the last couple months?

Unknown Speaker 13:39 No, I have no idea. Oh,

Unknown Speaker 13:41 yeah. Sorry to break the news. That mean, they have no good reason. Yeah. Ignorance. Yeah, they

Unknown Speaker 13:49 I think they do do that. Yeah. I think I think they were overly harsh to a lot of the things that the Satanic Temple does. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 13:56 And well, well, who was it? Why does this podcast? Well,

Unknown Speaker 14:02 maybe, maybe we'll tell you when we cut when we were not

Unknown Speaker 14:05 on the air. But yeah, yeah, when we take a break, I'll let you know who it was. But, you know, it's people that I that I admire, and I agree with, for the most part on the majority of their opinions on things, but the things that they were saying about the Satanic Temple, and some of the things they said about you in particular, I was fairly upset by because they were operating secular.

Unknown Speaker 14:26 Just tell them? No. I think I think we all sort of found ourselves independently feeling offended and sort of I, I was, I was a little bit surprised. It's sort of a juvenile view. I think that they that they take because they sort of are assuming that you're a part of the myth story that Christianity is and by perpetuating that you're also a little bit problematic, which I completely disagree with. But yeah,

Unknown Speaker 14:55 no, I completely disagree with it, too. Especially in that I was grounded in witness the problems of the Satanic Panic. So even without me here that mythology is being spread, it's being perpetuated in such a way that ruins people's lives. So when you actually stand up and self identify, and actually protect the legitimate legitimacy of people being able to self identify as they see fit, then, you know, I only think that's progress rather than the opposite.

Unknown Speaker 15:29 Yeah, yeah. And I would agree with that. And kind of in their defense, though, it's it's a weak defense, they were operating based on an email that they were sent by a listener who said that, well, first, they said that you coined the term Lucians law, which is, which is not correct. But

Unknown Speaker 15:45 that's not correct. That originally was put forward by actually big Williamson from the Center for free thought community or something like that, or no central Florida free thought. And then it was elaborated upon by Andrew Seidel. Yeah, from freedom. Foundation,

Unknown Speaker 16:05 right. Yeah. Yeah, I think I think Andrew did did a great job in in elaborating on that, and pointing out that if all else fails, you call in the satanists. And that's what he does illusions law. And so they were, you know, they were operating under this email that they got from a listener who sent them bad information to begin with. But then they just started riffing and ripping on the Satanic Temple, and shitting on a lot of the work that you're doing, basically saying that you're playing into the Christian narrative of being a religion, and at the same time damaging the atheist movement because the Satanic Temple is an atheist, or quote unquote, atheistic religion, which what

Unknown Speaker 16:44 that were they rather we were theistic, I mean, we there's actually nothing disingenuous in what we're putting forward. And I think that's part of the problem people have is they think we're playing these clever tactics, but we're actually not, you know, everything we put forward to you is, is completely 100%, where we're coming from. And I know that the realization of that might be uncomfortable to a lot of people. And I mentioned that at conferences I speak, because I typically speak at these conferences and that kind of thing. And I've often opened up and acknowledged that I know people, you know, in the crowds of speaking to probably feel a lot more comfortable. If they felt that we were actually trying to do this clever little ploy. Atheist tactic or some tactic against the theocratic encroachments that we're seeing. But the fact of the matter is that you can take everything you say, at face value, and that's what they and that's exactly what we mean, we view what we're doing as a as a religious perspective, force, you know, we view Satanism as a religion and legitimately so that it defines our kind of cultural identity and that type of thing. And we're willing to make that argument legalistically and everything else, it really isn't just a ploy, it's something we feel like we can't throw away, we can't discard that. That's the reality of who we are. And, you know, I don't know, how much of the markets from the atheist crowd, we gather around us that that might alienate, but it really doesn't matter. This was never a numbers game to begin with. Yeah, and

Unknown Speaker 18:21 I, I, we've talked about this on the show, we talk about you when you're not here. But uh, you know, that, that you guys fill a very specific niche that atheists as of yet are still sort of blocked from, which which allows you to kind of get in there and drive a wedge and penetrate, to get to get things done that are much theism

Unknown Speaker 18:43 is such a broad category. And I really feel like it's a major mistake for atheist activists to try to narrow down what atheism means whether, you know, they're trying to define political persuasion, or, you know, people's stands on issues or whatever else. To me, it's progress. If, you know, you have your hardcore Republicans and your far left liberals alike saying, okay, yeah, no, I'm an atheist, however, these are the issues I believe in, because then at least maybe you stand a chance of arguing the issues, you know, you know, it's better if you're not falling back on biblical justification or anything else. If it's some argument from cognitive dissonance, that's another thing. But let's let's get rid of the Supernaturalists question all together. I think that's only progress. I mean, Satanism, narrows it down a bit, you know, certainly not all atheists are seen. And we wouldn't ask that they be so. And when we get this kind of criticism that we make atheism look bad. You know, it makes me wonder, would they rather we were theistic, or that we claim we were

Unknown Speaker 19:51 right. Yeah. Right. And I think I think it doesn't say a lot for the advancement of skepticism to take an email from a fan and run with it in in such a way either yeah, like I said they they were going based on getting an email from a listener who who first gave them bad information, but then they didn't question any of it at all. And then we're heaping their own bits of venom on top of all of it. And it really bothered me as I was sitting there listening to these guys who, like I said, I agree with, you know, 99% of the time, and then was really upset by them spewing all of this bullshit about something they obviously had no fucking clue about. Yeah, yeah.

Unknown Speaker 20:27 Well, you should have heard the city council meeting, when they were deliberating about whether they would initiate a moment of silence to try to block us entirely. The slander people were speaking was just, you know, it was over the top, you had a, for one thing, everybody was saying that we are a we are a cult, not a religion. Nobody was bothering qualify their terminology, what they mean when they talk about a cult or when they talk about religion, or why they think the two are mutually exclusive. Right. And all evidence would point to the absolute opposite, right? But and with no sense of irony at the at the Phoenix city council meeting, who was referring to us as a misogynistic hate group, and she was justifying this opinion of hers by the fact that the woman who was going to give our invocation in Phoenix is a is She's a model, and she's taken. She's had photographs taken in bondage here, and nude pictures and those types of things. And of course, according to her this is this advocates violence against women, I guess that's, you know, that's like a, an old school. 1970s, puritanical way of thinking, you know, social justice way of thinking. But

Unknown Speaker 21:44 yeah, well, so apparently, the irony of her, slamming another woman for doing what she chooses to with her own body was was completely lost on this person. Right? That right, that a, certainly a woman can't decide what she can do with her body. Right?

Unknown Speaker 22:00 Well, you see, there's, there's, it's to the point where feminists for a long time now feminism has been a very difficult thing to get a definition on you. It's, it's like when somebody tells you they're a Christian, you have to see where they're where they're coming from, because there's, there's diametrically opposing strands of feminism. That's one of them. You know, there's the kind of anti pornographic, take a picture of that kind of thing. Advocates funds can swing a crowd, and then there's the feminist sex worker crowd. So you have no idea. So you go ask somebody who's coming from

Unknown Speaker 22:36 yeah, that's, that's a good point. Um, but but certainly a theistic female.

Unknown Speaker 22:42 Talking about some, you know, somebody else who is in a group that who she's claiming represents misogyny is is is in itself, a certain form of irony. Yeah. And and a certain form of sexism. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 22:57 Oh, the bigger irony, though, or the equal irony during the Phoenix city council meeting, was how many people were claiming that the only purpose of the Satanic Temple was to silence voices, they were trying to muscle religious speech. It's just funny, because actually, this all derived from us offering to speak, you know, all we said was that we want to speak, it caused that kind of controversy. They were doing everything they could do to shut us down. And as part of that, they were claiming that our, our motivations, the science.

Unknown Speaker 23:33 Are you a recognized religion?

Unknown Speaker 23:36 Well, what do you mean by recognized? I mean, we don't see tax exemption were registered as disorganization. Okay. I just argue that we don't think more than that. Sure, sure.

Unknown Speaker 23:50 I just meant that, you know, the Yeah. I mean, trying trying to say that your your intent is to silence religious voices when you yourself are trying to have a religious view heard.

Unknown Speaker 24:01 And being silenced. Right, right. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 24:05 So I had mentioned that we had David Silverman on the show, and that I had asked him about the Satanic Temple and the work that you're doing and everything, I wanted to play a little clip of that it's about five and a half minutes long, so feel free to cut in anytime and I'll pause it and you can respond to whatever but I had asked David about the the work that the Satanic Temple does, and just his thoughts on it. So I'm just gonna, I'm gonna play that and let you let you respond. And like I said, feel free to cut in anytime if you if you'd like. Earlier in the show, you mentioned that people can claim that they are religions, but you disagree that they are religions, because words are important words matter. Yeah. Well, and we've talked about activism and that kind of stuff. I mean, looking around the studio, you can see we've got stuff from the Satanic Temple here, and I'm a big fan of the work the Satanic Temple as I was wondering what your views are on what the Satanic Temple does and and how they're going about things because I've heard from other people that I respect a great deal. saying that they think the Satanic Temple is ultimately damaging to the cause of atheism and damaging to the separation of church and state.

Unknown Speaker 25:10 about them, and I don't get to talk about their cause. When we're putting things forward in the name of Satanism, I'm actually fighting for Satanism. So fuck them. We're not theistic and we're not going to claim that we are. I mean, what would be the point of that, but when we're putting forward to speak we're putting forward for for Satan is to speak. And you know, this does mean something to us. This is our sense of cultural identity. This does embody our deeply held beliefs and those types of things. I really could give a shit about their cause, or, or their their feelings about how we should be more conciliatory towards the opposition, because I don't feel that that has proven a a productive tactic. In any case, in any scenario whatsoever.

Unknown Speaker 25:55 No, yeah, no, no. And Dave actually agrees with that with that point. I mean, I'll start this up again here, which is the separation of church and state because it's just wrapping bullshit under a different type of label and promoting itself as a religion. And in my view, the Satanic Temple fills a particular niche perfectly right, because they label themselves as a religion and therefore use all of the arguments and benefits and special privileges that all these other religions have claimed for so long when they're basically diametrically opposed, or are these other Christians are and whatever other faiths view satanist as being so terrible, but they're using the same arguments to present a separation of church and state and to promote secular government and basically allowing really no religious privilege, but saying that they're doing so on a religious basis.

Unknown Speaker 26:47 Yeah. I have a great admiration for Lucian, grieves, and the Satanic Temple. I think they're doing good work. I think the people who say that they're doing bad work, and that they're making atheist look bad don't realize that they're making atheists look bad to the ignorant masses who already hate atheists.

Unknown Speaker 27:02 And I love that point that he made, which was just that, you know, anybody who would say that the Satanic Temple is making atheism look bad to anybody, the people that it would look bad to don't give a fuck about atheism anyway, and already hate atheism. So it doesn't really matter. That's a moot point, right?

Unknown Speaker 27:18 It's not like you can look at the Satanic Temple and say, Wow, things were going so well until these guys. But, you know, when I talk about things like the Satanic Panic and the 90s, and people going to prison and being accused of essentially supernatural crimes and suffering for them, this idea that we can't touch with symbolism, Satanism, that we have to treat Satanists differently from any other religious point of view, when that does resonate, for certain people in the idea of blasphemy is, is kind of a counter indoctrination measure, and something they latch on to a higher calling to preserve that the idea that Satanism is untouchable only serves to affirm this idea that still, at some level, the opposite terminology, the Judeo Christian religions act as arbiter of what's morally correct, I think is also damaging. You know, it's not only damaging to preserve that which hunty idea that anybody who embraces the symbolism or terminology of Satan must also be cruel and corrupt in an antisocial criminal, most types of things. It's also it's also counterproductive on the other side, and that it affirms the legitimacy of the Christian perspective, I really don't understand why we're dealing with that kind of pushback from people, you should be able to see beyond that.

Unknown Speaker 28:44 Yeah, yeah, I don't, I don't understand that. But either, let me get this going. Again, here.

Unknown Speaker 28:49 They're, they're not hurting us anymore, that we're already hurt, because they may be reinforcing a stereotype. But they're reinforcing a stereotype with the people who know us the least, and already hate us. What they are doing is taking the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster one step farther, and they're saying they're using an actual religious figure and actual religious texts, and using it to further a secular government. It's brilliant, and really, really effective. And we worked with them at Oklahoma City to get the 10 commandments removed the ACLU and in on the federal level, we have the state level, we went into the federal level and the Church of Satan went in to try and get a 14th Amendment type of equal statue, and the three of us work together and the monument went away. It's effective, and it made a change and made a positive change. And I think that the way he's using it the way the Satanic Temple is, is massaging themselves. No, they're not a religion, but they are a religion legally, they're not a religion. definitionally Sure, but legally, just like the secular Jews, they are and they're using that to their advantage. They're using it to our advantage. Yeah. And I think they're doing great work and I support them.

Unknown Speaker 29:56 So you say that they're not a religion definitionally what what is what is your definition of Let's say

Unknown Speaker 30:00 so out of religion, this is the thing. There were three definitions for religion. One is the belief in a God. A God, of course is defined as a supernatural intelligence. Okay. One is the practice of ceremonies around a belief in a god and one is something that's pursued fervently. Okay, so definition three is stupid. Okay. Yeah. And I openly

Unknown Speaker 30:21 I really like to golf. I think I could see Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 30:25 Definition three, something that's pursued fervently is ridiculous. Okay, that's equating the Catholic Church with thumb twiddling or football. Yeah, or anybody with or turning on and off a light switch for an OCD person. That's not a religion. Okay. Right. So if you just summarily omit that stupid ass definition, because it's stupid, then you've got two definitions that require a supernatural belief that makes the Satanic Temple atheistic, a club that makes the secular Jews a club, not a religion.

Unknown Speaker 30:54 And that's, that's where I felt like this, this little bit, went off the rails a little bit. I was wondering what your response would would be to that. And I spoke, I spoke for you a little bit coming up here and just a bit of what I thought your response would be. But I'm curious to know what your response is, is to that charge that you're not really a religion? Because you don't have any belief in in a supernatural being?

Unknown Speaker 31:20 Oh, you're asking me? Yes, I thought I was still listening, the recording. I fooled you know, I agree with everything he said, but I don't accept His acceptance of the definitions of religion that are outside the legal definition. I don't think we should accept any of those. Because, you know, a lot of the legal thinking went into this because it tries to massage this idea that, you know, we're a pluralistic nation, you, we have religious liberty, that doesn't exclude anybody. And therefore, the only legitimate definition legally of religion embodies that deeply held belief in in cultural identity, rather than definitions that are dependent upon a higher being or those types of things. And I don't I don't recognize those outside definitions outside the legal definitions, I think, well, the legal definition is in place for for good purpose. And I really don't think those, you know, demanding certain criteria of religion based on supernaturalism. I don't I don't even think that makes sense.

Unknown Speaker 32:29 Yeah. And, and I agree, what I, what I thought you may have, or the way that I thought you may have replied, that's coming up here.

Unknown Speaker 32:37 We'll do better to cue you in when we cut it next time. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 32:41 Here we go. Well, I'm curious about that, because I think Lucian would probably say,

Unknown Speaker 32:45 he says he's a non theistic religion. That's how he defined himself

Unknown Speaker 32:49 and to say that you have to have a belief or that a necessary part of religion is that you have to have belief in a supernatural deity, I think he would say that that's playing into a religious narrative, just as the Christians would do.

Unknown Speaker 33:00 I'm just taking the definitions out of the book out of the dictionary, okay. Words have meanings. And I say the opposite. I say that he's playing into the religion by and the secular Jews are playing into the religion narrative by claiming to be a religion, you're, you're implying theism, you're applying a belief in a god? That's what the vernacular is, they're the ones playing into it, by calling themselves a religion by saying, we want to be a religion, because being a religion is good. That's playing into the narrative. Now, he and I disagree on this one point. And he's wrong, but that's fine.

Unknown Speaker 33:31 We've got him on next week. So the same,

Unknown Speaker 33:34 doing good work, and he's using the law to do good work. And I have no problem with using the law to do good work. So you know, I'll disagree with him on a thing. Yeah, it's

Unknown Speaker 33:46 a pretty minor point. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 33:47 It's a real minor point. And and, you know, we're playing different roles here. And we're doing different things and the role that he's doing kind of requires him to take that position. Sure. Does it absolutely require, yes, it does. And it's an incorrect position, I maintain, but that's fine. He's doing the role. He's doing the job. He's getting stuff done.

Unknown Speaker 34:08 So not very far apart. I think Dan's objection was the same that certain people were listening to in the movement who are actually fairly influential, just had absolutely 100% Objection, because it's just as false as the God thing. But whatever. I mean, the results are what they voted on. I

Unknown Speaker 34:24 mean, like, what How can you say one is equal to another when you look at the results that they're getting? That was my Yeah, the result? The result was, that was my problem with a lot of the things that these other people that, you know, I respect and listened to quite a bit were saying and that I completely disagreed with. So I'm glad for your take on that. Thank you very much. Sure. And that was the end of the clip. So So I think I think I kind of nailed the the type of response that you would give that, you know, to say that this ah,

Unknown Speaker 34:53 I just don't agree that you should concede religion is supernatural, because I think there is something To the idea of religion outside supernaturalism. And I think there should be some recourse to communities that are attached by deeply held belief to be able to make the argument that they should be exempt or privilege somehow on certain things, due to that deeply held belief, whether it be conscientious objectors or whatever else, you know, in the case where it at least be reasonably considered that if somebody is compelled by the government to do something, or act in any certain way, that it undermines their sense of identity in such a way that that is really damaging in ways they may not have counted on, you know, I actually think there is some place for religious privilege and exemption in that, that might be something of a surprise to people to hear as well. But I think so long is that door is open to everybody, everybody have any particular religious opinion, whether it be non belief for or for whatever else, then then it's, then it's a tenable position, then you're not giving some exclusive privilege to a certain set of people, you know, you're really considering people for what they're saying to you

Unknown Speaker 36:15 all that that plays into your guys's having your basic abortion waivers, saying it's my deeply held belief that I'm allowed to do this, and I shouldn't have to watch your video and wait, you know, 72 hours to go through this process. And I thought that was a pretty awesome thing when you guys did that as basically as a

Unknown Speaker 36:34 further Fiat, we're objecting to the informed consent materials in Missouri that explicitly states in those materials, that that life begins at conception, yeah. And to terminate this pregnancy will terminate a unique individual human life. And that really is a matter of religious opinion and not something we think should be forced upon somebody when they're making a difficult decision. It's certainly not the type of information that justifies a 72 hour waiting periods to digests. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 37:08 well, and especially when those types of opinions are they blossom or stem from a religious belief in the first place. And so counteracting those types of beliefs and actions with an opposing religious belief is is the is the perfect niche that I think the Satanic Temple Phil's

Unknown Speaker 37:25 Yeah, I think so too.

Unknown Speaker 37:29 All right, well, I think we should take a quick break here. And when we get back, we'll talk more about the reproductive rights campaign and Oklahoma City and what they have done in the past and are trying to do in the near future. Stay tuned, everybody.

Unknown Speaker 37:44 The next rant will start right after this.

Unknown Speaker 37:49 Hey, y'all, this is Tucker from the atheist in the trailer park podcast. And I might live in a bear cam, but I know inbred redneck. And if you listen to my podcast, I'm gonna learn something. And now I talking about how to marry your cousin and not have kids with 16 fingers and stuff like that. I mean, I actually talk about real stuff. I teach people where the Bible stolen stories from so y'all give me a listen. Would you? Thank you joining the godless Revolution podcast now.

Unknown Speaker 38:25 Welcome back. We are joined still, by the wonderful Mr. Doug Messner, aka Lucien Greaves, spokesperson for the Satanic Temple. We got some other things that we wanted to talk to you about tonight. One of them being the the Oklahoma, the recent developments in Oklahoma City, you know, in the past, the Satanic Temple worked to get the Decalogue removed from Oklahoma City. Was it a capital grounds or court? Court grounds?

Unknown Speaker 38:53 Yeah, no, it was the capital. Was it the capital capital building?

Unknown Speaker 38:56 So So you work to get those you work to get it removed from there? One of the primary arguments was that it was against even Oklahoma State Constitution. So one of the recent developments is that there's a lawmaker there in Oklahoma, who is trying to pass a change to their constitution in order to allow the Decalogue to be replaced back at the Capitol building.

Unknown Speaker 39:21 Yeah, I saw that.

Unknown Speaker 39:24 I figured you had probably been informed of such things. What are your thoughts on that? I mean, ultimately, this is the ultimately this is another losing battle that they're choosing, they're choosing to wage. I don't understand why they want to waste their time on this kind of bullshit and

Unknown Speaker 39:38 money. Yeah, yeah. I don't understand it either. As it seems, yes. It seems to me. It's it's not a very popular battle to fight either. The local newscasts I looked at the local news articles that allow for public comments showed a vast majority of negative comments Terry in sounded like people locally saying, this is a massive waste of money and embarrassment to their state. So I don't know if that will have any effect at all to people. But it's amazing that there's people in public office. This is their priority. You know, this is obviously what they think is the most important issue of everything they have to handle at any local level. And that's that's deeply disturbing.

Unknown Speaker 40:27 Yeah, that apparently Oklahoma has no other pressing issues than getting the 10 commandments directed back on Capitol grounds. That's the most important thing that they could be spending their taxpayers funds on.

Unknown Speaker 40:39 Yeah, I don't I don't think Oklahoma is very high and statistics when it comes to being a best nation that anything. But that was an interesting thing, also about some of the public comments made in Phoenix by some of the council members. There was a council member in Phoenix when it came to our invocation, Jim Warren, and he was saying to the press directly, that he felt that Phoenix should take us to court, even in the face of certain defeats. And that just struck me as an amazing statement to make when this wasn't his money this, right, you know, this was the public. This, these were the public funds being put forward. So how is it that at the general population could actually tolerate him saying those things at all?

Unknown Speaker 41:28 And I'm sure he identifies as a fiscally conservative Republican? Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 41:32 right. Right. No, I'm just going to assume that Oklahoma, saw you guys on CNN and saw the Batman statue being unveiled and thought that thing looks pretty cool. We would love to have it in our capitol.

Unknown Speaker 41:47 That's what I think he's going to be really dying for, actually in Oklahoma that seemed to feel like they can, as an Arkansas, they feel like they can just ignore our requests. But that's really, that really doesn't stand like in Arkansas, they put forward the idea that they will deliberate upon our application, as they, as they see fit where they feel like it. And in actuality, if they don't give us the same consideration that they get the 10 commandments, application, we have grounds for a lawsuit, then as an Oklahoma, there are several parties that could that could sue them for discrimination, not just us, including Hindu group. I think PETA in both cases, in other organizations that offered up monuments as well.

Unknown Speaker 42:36 Yeah. I didn't know PETA wanted to erect a monument.

Unknown Speaker 42:39 Yeah, PETA, at least in one of the spots, maybe bowling. I don't know if it's Arkansas, or Oklahoma. I'm certain about but at least one of them. If not both of them,

Unknown Speaker 42:49 I'd be curious to see what their stats would be nothing against PETA. But

Unknown Speaker 42:52 the why why the Open Forum has been open. Yeah. The fact of the matter is, if you don't like our message, or didn't like our message that's beside the point. And that's something I've said in many of the interviews I've given because I get sick of the question where people, well, people expect me to summarize our beliefs and who we are and all, you know, a 10 second soundbite which isn't, isn't really reasonable at all. Yeah. But often in interviews, I'll point out that our beliefs really aren't a question. You know, if they're vetting me to determine whether or not they can actually align with the values or not, it doesn't matter what people need to realize it doesn't matter who we are what we believe, they should just realize that basic points that the government can engage in viewpoint discrimination, we could be everything they suspected, we were, you know, everything they they claim, to hate and despise. In that one change the fact that they cannot simply engage in that viewpoint discrimination situated they keep us from speaking, correct. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 44:01 And I've actually been using the seven tenants of the Satanic Temple as an argument lately without telling them where it came from first where I'll read them to them and go what do you think about this? Do you think this is a right way or a moron? Just a way to live your life and usually nobody disagrees with like, yeah, that's, I find that to be fair, I kind of that's that seems pretty good. So like, yeah, by the way that the Satanic Temple? Fuck, you're right.

Unknown Speaker 44:24 Well, that well, then they argue that that's the domain of Satan. Right? Because we all know who the arbiters of moral authority are. So if you if you accept some of these moral premises, you also have to accept I guess that homosexuals are evil or that abortion is wrong. Yeah. But

Unknown Speaker 44:43 I have not yet to have anybody come up with a valid argument against the seven tenants of the Satanic Temple to be like, well, I guess.

Unknown Speaker 44:53 But that's like I say then if any come up with a lot of that shit like, well, they just call them so saying this to me. Christians are promoting people or whatever else when, you know, it really doesn't matter what I say to the contrary, people are going to going to believe that one way or the other.

Unknown Speaker 45:09 So I had mentioned that we've got some artwork here in the studio that I had, that I had gotten through a donation to the reproductive rights campaign. What's the what's the latest on that? I mean, when when we spoke to you last, of course, the reproductive rights campaign was just kicking off. And the woman who was seeking an abortion had traveled there and was told that she had to wait what's, what's her situation,

Unknown Speaker 45:32 um, her situation I'm not entirely clear on and I don't keep close ties with her in part of that is really intentional. Because if I'm DECOs, for some reason, in this case, I really don't want very close knowledge of her life and who she is just kind of for that purpose. But the lawsuits we have a state and a federal lawsuit, this state claim is leveraging the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. And the federal claim is just a straight First Amendment case, the state case has actually had a bit of deliberation on it. And the judge dismissed it without prejudice, saying he wasn't entirely clear how this was a Religious Freedom Restoration at claim, so we had to amend the complaint and resubmit it. And that's where we are now if the federal case hasn't been deliberated on at all, but of course, because there was that dismissal without prejudice, which was really just us amending our complaint resubmitting it, you have these Christian news sources like lifesite News, probably Christian News Service and the ones that usually lie about us, either willfully or or not getting the story entirely wrong and in outright reporting that we lost this case that we were sent home, and you know, that the judge threw it out is kind of frivolous lawsuit from the get go or whatever, which, you know, isn't true, but there really hasn't been a whole lot of motion so far.

Unknown Speaker 47:13 Yeah, well, and that kind of that kind of information and misinformation comes from people who, of course, are seeking to promote their own narrative and probably have no idea what what a dismissal without prejudice even means.

Unknown Speaker 47:28 Yeah, yeah. Well, no, in the they don't care either. They want it to be that that's what they want to report. So that's what they will. I don't know you should check out if you haven't seen it, a piece I wrote for the Friendly Atheist. A couple months back when CNN aired a 45 minute piece about the Satanic Temple hosted by Lisa link. Afterwards, we got so much negative Christian press that we're full of lies that I found it necessary to write a piece about it. And one of the one of the pieces was from a website called church militants, and they were so affronted by this CNN depiction of Satanism in what they call the positive light that they they referred to me as Doug Messner. Who is a sex offender oh well, yeah, I

Unknown Speaker 48:23 did.

Unknown Speaker 48:25 Yeah, so naturally, I emailed them immediately CC my lawyer openly on the message and said, You know, I pointed out to them that I'm not a sex offender either by by deed or legal sanction them claiming that I am an actionable offense. Yeah, they immediately retracted it, which I also found kind of interesting they didn't message me back and say, Actually, we got some misinformation here sorry or anything like that. They just they immediately I mean, within minutes, messaged back and said, Okay, we're changing that. It made me feel that they they had no reason for believing that that was accurate information to begin with.

Unknown Speaker 49:08 Yeah, let's let's see if we can get away with this slander. Yeah, they were just they were just trying to poison the well against you in the Satanic Temple to begin with.

Unknown Speaker 49:15 Oh, yeah, that kind of thing is horrific. If we see that kind of slander pop up often we have to keep on top of it because as soon as somebody prints that, then the next person to say well according to somebody else, this is the case then it's far more difficult to to prosecute

Unknown Speaker 49:33 sometimes I just wish those Christians would it would have eaten some of that knowledge fruit.

Unknown Speaker 49:40 So So you mentioned the the CNN show, that was the show with Lisa Ling, where she did a little expose a on the Satanic Temple and the reproductive rights campaign and the unveiling of the bathmat statue and everything. I thought that was a that was a pretty fair not not to be all Fox on you, but the That was a pretty fair and balanced presentation of what the Satanic Temple is and stands for? What were your thoughts on it?

Unknown Speaker 50:07 I thought so too, I thought it was very well done. Something that should be recognized. So does that took a lot of negotiation in, I wasn't negotiating to get things depicted in our favor. Obviously, they could do what they want. And they had ultimate editorial control. But I've been very careful agreeing to media representations of us, we get approached all the time, by production companies, crews, you know, documentary crews, that type of thing, and they want to work with us on different projects. And most the time, it's very insulting. You know, they want to do this reality TV show kind of bullshit that would really just kind of cash us out.

Unknown Speaker 50:54 It'd be a false narrative.

Unknown Speaker 50:55 But so when we do get approached, I have all these all these standards, and I tell them up front, I'm back to a personal profile, and I don't think that kind of thing is appropriate. Anyway, we're not going to do this kind of reality TV.

Unknown Speaker 51:10 I've always thought Lisa does does a really good job with their show. And apparently we have internet connection problems, and they will try to get the call back.

Unknown Speaker 51:17 Well please stand by the godless revolution will continue in a moment.

Unknown Speaker 51:29 Hey, everybody, this is x. I'm Kyle. And I'm Felicia, we're the Utah outcasts three out unashamed and active atheist living in Utah. And we are personally inviting you to let us love your ears each and every week as we take the news, current events and pop culture and give it a little twist, Oliver Twist with consent, and we'll be joined each week by a special guest to tell us what makes them an outcast like us. Come find us. The Utah Outcast on pod hill.com Stitcher, iTunes, Google Play Facebook, Twitter and YouTube and on Utah outcasts.com. We finally bought that domain off the kids handing out mixtapes in the mall can be an outcast with us. Take care of yourselves out there. And you're welcome.

Unknown Speaker 52:17 You and the godless revolution will be reassimilated in 321.

Unknown Speaker 52:24 Hello, hey, yeah. I was I was going through this very florid description in this browsing speech that got everybody on their feet. And then next thing I knew you guys weren't on the line at all. And I thought I probably been talking for 10 minutes straight ranting on delivering my greatest story ever. God damn it, when there wasn't. Now I don't even remember what I was talking about.

Unknown Speaker 52:52 I feel terrible that we missed. Well, we were talking about Lisa Ling. And I thought that she did a good job representing the Satanic Temple. And you said that or that you go through this list of things that you will and won't do and that you didn't want it to be like a reality TV show bullshit. Anything like that. And then it kind of dropped.

Unknown Speaker 53:10 Yeah, that's right. It's rousing, wasn't it? It's beautiful. Very inspiring. I was clapping probably the chair. Yeah. You that You really have to be there. You'd have to hear the whole thing I said. It was classic.

Unknown Speaker 53:25 How's the spicy tuna though? More to the point like I don't think I had spicy

Unknown Speaker 53:29 tuna at some sashimi. Oka. Right? A bit of it, actually.

Unknown Speaker 53:35 So so we were talking about Lisa Ling. The next thing that I wanted to talk to you about is the thing that was posted on your timeline earlier today about the Satanic Panic killing of an eight year old Jude mirror

Unknown Speaker 53:47 x. Well, I'm really quite happy that I've managed to draw attention to this leveraging the popularity of the Satanic Temple. Because this is an issue I've been looking at for four years now and years before the Satanic Temple was even founded. And it's actually been a very difficult thing to bring press attention to. Because it's more complicated than can be summarized in the headline. You know, it really is pretty easy to generate press when it comes to things like invocations at city council meetings or whatever else. But when it's more complicated than that, and it needs to be summarized in all of a paragraph. You can count on the media interest dropping off quite a bit. So the fact that I've managed to get raw story advice to write about it has been a major success for me and get a over 1000 signatures to this petition to have the the therapists licensed reviewed is very gratifying to me because they've gotten away with this for so long. And I guess for people who don't know about what the issue is, there was a a high profile case just Six years ago, in which a socialite in Manhattan a self made multimillionaire mother murdered her eight year old autistic child because she felt that she was preserving the child from enduring a lifetime of abuse at the hands of some non existent satanic cult. And his mother now is serving 18 years in prison. But something that went completely unnoticed was that this woman had reached out for help from licensed professional mental health professionals, who, unfortunately believe in this delusional conspiracy narrative that harkens back to the 1980s 1990s Satanic Panic involving satanic ritual abuse and other things that have been completely debunked. And for the most part, these narratives are drawn forward by recovered memories in the same way that people remember, in a confabulate Tori way under hypnosis that they were abducted by aliens or that they live past lives or anything like that. So we have a petition in place to try to get the California Board of licensure to actually unlicensed, this clinical psychologist who promotes these delusional conspiracy narratives, on the grounds that we think it's self evidence that this is harmful to people who mentally vulnerable people that would come to her for help.

Unknown Speaker 56:26 So what is the name of the therapist,

Unknown Speaker 56:29 Ellen lachter, and something that was pointed out in the vise piece that just came out today was that she was actually roommates with a woman named Diana. Napoli's, who was convicted of celebrity stalking, she was stalking Jennifer Love Hewitt and Steven Spielberg, in her feeling was that I believe both of them were part of some satanic cult conspiracy, and that they were directing some type of weaponry towards her head, you know, some mind control weaponry, or some some, some fucking thing like that. I mean, this stuff is crazy. It's absolutely insane. In these people who are at the absolutely craziest are supposed to be the the ones who are overseeing people's mental health, ironically, and there's just no excuse for that whatsoever. If we take mental health seriously, we need to take claims, reality claims seriously. And we need to, at some point, really assign some kind of arbitration as to what is is a claim based in reality and what is not. I mean, for instance, if somebody walks into the therapists office, in saying that they're the their Jesus Christ, or that they're the reincarnation of Napoleon, it doesn't really make sense then, in the profession, that it is for people to take this kind of postmodernist perspective and say, Well, who are we to say that they're not, you know, I mean, you're talking mental health, you have to have some kind of idea of what reality is, and this goes beyond issues of academic freedom or whatever else. If you're, you're promoting narratives that really have no evidence to justify them. No, we can, we can call you delusional at that point. And I feel delusional people should not be in the mental health business. And ironically, far too often, the people who hold these narratives are in the mental health field into to a large degree, these are the primary people who believe in these conspiracy narratives at all they get in the mental health field, you know, they believe in the recovered memory narratives. And that's, that's what they work. That's what they work toward. You know, that's, that's the narrative they work towards.

Unknown Speaker 58:48 Yeah, it's funny, you should mention that. Tracy and I are catching up on we're reviewing all previous nine seasons of The X Files in preparation to watch the the reboot of the X Files, right. And there were a few episodes where they mentioned satanic cultism and the Satanic Panic and, and it was interesting to me like I at the time, when I had initially watched all of the X Files episodes it it didn't really occur to me, right? Yeah, in the back in the 90s. It wasn't, it wasn't that big a deal to me. I hadn't, I hadn't really thought much about it. But in watching them now, with more information and knowing that the Satanic Panic was all a bunch of bullshit. It's, it's, it's kind of fun to watch. Scolese response to a lot of these charges that these kids may have been abducted by Satanists and sacrifice and that kind of stuff. And, and it's kind of cool seeing her being the skeptic about all of this when we know now that that was all bullshit at the time.

Unknown Speaker 59:47 You know, I never really watched X Files its first round. And then I saw the first reboot episode recently. And I feel like it was something maybe I could have enjoyed at a certain time, but now I'm too I invested in combating these narratives that even I even seeing them in a fictional context. I'm seeing this kind of Alex Jones narrative being put forward. on network television was cringing, and I'm thinking, this is fucking awful. This is the worst thing I've ever seen. You know, it, I just have no sense of humor about it anymore. I can't appreciate it at all. I absolutely hated the first episode of the new X Files. And I feel like but I but you know, with the caveat that I know, I can't have a neutral perspective on it.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:35 Yeah. And I feel the same way. I mean, watching all of these old episodes, I'm like, I remember watching all of these things when, you know, when I first saw them and thinking, oh, yeah, alien abduction, you know, everybody's talking about that. So that's a thing that happens. And you know, Scully is a skeptic and she doesn't believe but here you've got molder, who has all this evidence, and she's presented with this evidence, and she's seen these things, and she still won't believe in Why won't you believe and now watching, you know, going back and watching all of them now it's like, wow, I used to believe in

Unknown Speaker 1:01:03 like, I think he's been on the ship in this issue, though. And I've seen people's lives destroyed that type of thing, that I can't I can't separate it. I can't see it as this fictional narrative. I think it would be similar for you if you're watching a movie like risen everybody. Humans by by the presence of the Christ, or whatever else, it just, he can't watch it. It you know, with this mindset, well, that's fiction that's entertaining, or whatever else, you know, there's, there's too much baggage attached to it, too, to be able to appreciate it at all.

Unknown Speaker 1:01:36 Oh, yeah. And I feel the same way about all of the, you know, movies about fucking exorcisms and demon possessions and ghosts, and all that other, all of that other bullshit that, you know, 10 years ago would would have possibly frightened me. And now I'm like, This is stupid. Yes, what a waste of time, especially when they feature such well known demons as Steven Spielberg, Jennifer Love Hewitt.

Unknown Speaker 1:01:59 But we did have the case with the Memphis three that I think became a pretty well known case with the movies and documentaries that came out about it and the munition musicians that were behind them. And their whole reason why they got put in prison was because the whole community said, these three boys killed these two kids in a satanic ritual. And they believed it, because they were the outcasts of the community and everything. And these kids had nothing to do with any satanic rituals or whatever. But that was one of the sole reasons why they got convicted. Yeah, honestly.

Unknown Speaker 1:02:27 And it just goes to show me as well as the case of Gigi Jordan, which we have the petitioner for now. The death of cute Mira. And there's another case recently, within the past few years here, Castlewood, there is an eating disorders clinic that that was putting women through this kind of therapy that was convincing them they were victims to say Catholic children's things. It's still a current problem. You know, the Satanic Panic is said to come and gone in the 80s and 90s. But really, there was no change in policy with mental health care. Yeah, there was no real revisions to procedure and there was no apologies. Put there after it says, it says an author of a book called We believe the children, which recently came out with a history of the Satanic Panic pointed out, after the Salem witch trials, there were apologies, you know, there were repercussions. One of the primary judges from the Salem Witch Trials issued an apology, but 1020 years later, or something like that, no such thing happened after the Satanic Panic of the 80s and 90s. Nothing changed, except they don't they don't make it as public anymore. Yeah. And yet, it still happens, it still happens in is just as cool to form as it did in the 80s and 90s, as well. And that's, it's unknown to so many people, but it's actually very prevalent. And if you look up and see if you can find people in your area, psychotherapist said deal with dissociative identity disorder, which is the rebranding, multiple personality disorder, bullshit diagnosis, you know, the entire basis of this whole moral panic? You'll I'm sure you'll find people near you today. who specialized in that.

Unknown Speaker 1:04:19 Yeah, well, I think that's I think that's probably an inherent problem of the soft science of psychology and psychiatry, right? That there's no empirical evidence that you can point two four for a lot of these conditions you know, you you can be a god bother and still be a brain surgeon like fucking Ben Carson. And you can do some brilliant work, knowing and understanding basic biology facts and how the human body works. But when you when you separate, you know, the hard science of knowing how something works with a particular belief of how something may have come about as far as someone's psychology, it's a whole different realm, right? And so it's a easier for these charlatans to get away with this kind of bullshit.

Unknown Speaker 1:05:03 Yeah, in there's something unique about the about mental health care as well, people don't realize the distinction between, say, a psychotherapist who can really be some any idiot off the street and a clinical psychologist who needs to be a PhD. It turns out that Ellen lacquer is a clinical psychologist anyway. So that shows a problem with the entire mental health care field in general. But also the fact that just about anybody can declare themselves a therapist I think is also problematic. It shouldn't be the case because the public education such that they recognize the distinction between a therapist psychiatrist,

Unknown Speaker 1:05:44 so is this is this Ellen lacquer is that the same woman who months ago, you would posted a link to I believe her web page for her practice where she had gone out in the woods and found a location that she just knew was yes, was a location. Ritual. Person.

Unknown Speaker 1:06:04 Wow. Did you did you explore her website at all? I mean, it's absolutely insane. And that's that's part of the petition we have put forward to California has that. This material she puts forward on her professional website. And she's actually some kind of adjunct professor, something else that one California offers Jesus is she puts forward her website and ritual abuses her professional website, the fact that that she can use that for her with her professional naturals is also problematic for the entire industry as well, because self evident that she's delusional, and that her thinking is problematic. Yes, you look over her website. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 1:06:45 yeah, yeah. When you posted that video, I went and looked at her website, and I was like, Holy shit, this woman is fucking nuts. And she's supposed to be treating people who have some kind of mental incapacity. And she's posting things like this on her website, saying that I'm a professional and dealing with these types of issues that aren't even a real fucking thing. It's all fucking bullshit. And they're out there on her website. Right? Right.

Unknown Speaker 1:07:09 In in the case of Gigi Jordan, she she had this feeling that her son was being oppressed by Satanists. And she she found Ellen lachter In I would suspect Elektra help legitamate this is point of view for to the point where she killed her kid. Yeah, because she felt there was no hope for her kid, their kid is going to be oppressed by these cycles for the rest of his life. And she killed him. If she had found some competent mental health out. And not Ellen lachter. Maybe her kid wouldn't be dead today. That's, that's the very, very hard if they are.

Unknown Speaker 1:07:45 Well, yeah. How can she release herself from any culpability in the death of these people?

Unknown Speaker 1:07:49 Yeah, well, I don't know how how California's core device secure can overlook this. And hopefully, when I send it the dossier with all this information about Ellen lachter, as well as a petition with all the signatures and comments, they'll be forced to take action. And they'll have to realize also that I've managed to generate press support. But if they don't take any action will yield to the Attorney General's Office. Beyond that, I don't know what to do. But it's just it's just disgusting that it takes this kind of work at all, this is something they should be looking out for. So

Unknown Speaker 1:08:23 well. Yeah, this this practice shouldn't be allowed to be practiced period at all. Well,

Unknown Speaker 1:08:28 no, no, not at all. In You know, I have, I have colleagues that I work with Satanic Temple significant scrape actions, the segment that's concerned with these issues. And one of them sent a complaint about a therapist did miss UCITS, who says that he is a former Illuminati super soldier that in the memories follows Masonic ritual, satanic ritual is crazy stories he's throwing out. I mean, absolutely insane. It they compiled such a convincing dossier that this guy is insane. And they submitted this to the Massachusetts board of licensure. And they wrote back and essentially said that, well, we will keep an eye on this. Thanks for letting us know. And that's it. You know, the guy still has his his licensure. And this still goes on. And he in particular, runs conferences, where they talk about these types of things. He talked about satanic ritual abuse, government mind control, they talk rock conspiracy theory, and yet they're able to offer continuing education units to people who are licensed in mental health profession. I mean, that that's, that's where it's at right now. People could talk about these these tinfoil hat conspiracy theories, and people can attend these lectures and actually get their continuing education. Psychology.

Unknown Speaker 1:09:55 Yeah. As part of continuing of their of their learning in the field. That's fucking ridiculous.

Unknown Speaker 1:10:01 Yeah, no look up a site survivorship.org I would encourage anybody who's listening to look this up. It's fucking crazy look at the look at the lectures they offer on their webinars and talk about things related to government controls and go to look at their calendar of difficult dates where they talk about different dates for satanic rituals, those types of things that people who are used by these things need to look out for it, look at their webinars page and see how you sign up for the webinars. You can get continuing education unit says a professional in the mental health field to listen to shit. That's that's based on these that's very some bullshit. Yeah, no, it's it's a disgrace. The oversight boards are an absolute disgrace, and there's no excuse for them being as they are, it doesn't matter if people from outside the general public are looking over this or not, they should be doing their job. It shouldn't take somebody like me outside of the field, screaming about this for years to get reform, you know, anybody in that position should be able to look at this, it's self evident that this is delusional. This is the kind of material that should that should only be spouted out by by a homeless person on the street. In those people shouldn't have to be in those positions anyways. But, you know, the fact that this is happening at all some kind of outside observer and oversight for medical, absolute scripts. Yeah. And I hope some people's names are disappeared for for all of his stream, because because of the situation,

Unknown Speaker 1:11:37 yeah, they should absolutely lose their license, and anybody who would not investigate them for maintaining a license should be fucking ashamed of themselves. It's disgusting. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:11:47 And they have to know the harmless. You know, they have to know. I mean, if it's a mystery to them, that that's absolute professional incompetence, and there's no excuse for that. But my suspicion is they know the issue. And it's just more more than that. So long as there's not a big public outcry about it. I mean,

Unknown Speaker 1:12:08 they're getting paid well, and then we need to make sure that there is a large public outcry about it. So I will, I will definitely post a link to Ellen lectors website and that video and the survivorship.org website for sure.

Unknown Speaker 1:12:19 Well, I would like like to go mentioned to that lacquers part of a larger problem. In particular, this problem is, is called the the International Society for the Study of trauma and dissociation. The ISs TD

Unknown Speaker 1:12:33 is STD.

Unknown Speaker 1:12:34 Sorry. Oh, yeah. Well, so bother there.

Unknown Speaker 1:12:39 No, you're absolutely fine, man.

Unknown Speaker 1:12:41 I mean, if we jump back just a hair, it's it's true that Jude Mira was also killed by an overdose of prescription medications. Right. I mean, is there any evidence that can tie though, Xanax and Ambien back to this particular doctor, or

Unknown Speaker 1:12:54 no, the overdose was intentional, or the overdose was forced upon the child, specifically to kill him. But it was because his mother believed that he was going to be forever oppressed by the satanic called conspiracy. And I feel that, you know, her going to a woman like Ellen lachter, who, who believed in this satanic call conspiracy, certainly nothing, this abuser of this idea was at least not helpful. And she was in a prime position to actually help this moment. Those illusions in obviously, she wasn't going to do that. So the idea that that Jude has killed due to this idea isn't question this? This is something I've been asked to buy by the mother.

Unknown Speaker 1:13:44 So so it's it's it's not known where the prescriptions came from then I mean, or or were they from that specific paranormal doctor?

Unknown Speaker 1:13:52 Oh, you know, I don't know where, where GQ. Jordan got good pills. I mean, she was a marking house, but I really the prescriptions that I have all the court documents, a lot of my habits that I wrote about this case, but maybe some of those doc, as far as I can tell, there wasn't, was it overmedication engaged in anybody. I was looking at myself. There was Frank Putnam, who was also with the ISS. Who was who was legitimating, the facilitating communications supposed to be involved. Jude was autistic, in not verbal, you know, he really couldn't communicate himself. And his mother was engaged in facilitate communication, which is kind of geeky board effect, you know, where she felt like she could discern what he was trying to type and he could help facilitate typing in outside testimony was saying that it was it was completely delusional. Yeah. We'll be working with fire You're typing in yet, Frank Putnam, the ISFP putting Cynthia that independently communicate, who's telling these stories or whatever else. So I think there's a much deeper problem. Simply a lack or for that problem is he is ispd also has a ritual abuse Mike took special interest within it that Ellen lacquer was part of he was heading up that group until the satanic temples petitioned against don't lacquer came came upon blind. Yeah, is this struggle lacquer from their website? And yet they still have this ritual abuse micro SpectraLink. Because they miss the point. You know, the problem isn't electric, per se. It's delusional beliefs being put forward. It's a fire and mental health professional.

Unknown Speaker 1:15:54 Right. It sounds kind of like that movie like men staring at goats with all this psychobabble I can explode cloud.

Unknown Speaker 1:16:03 Eric go. I mean, that that whole life stupid. Yeah. I mean, at least in The Men Who Stare at Goats there was there was some reasonable fear before, you know, the Russians are testing this recording for this kind of propaganda that they're getting results or whatever. Yeah. So you had some people in the military thinking? Well, the only responsible thing to do for us test is make sure we're not missing anything. But at this point with multiple personality disorders. It's so thoroughly that there's no credible whatsoever. And yet they still persist. Because you have people invested in this profession. That's all they know. And they're not going to give it up. If it APA isn't gonna give it up. But it's, nothing's gonna happen. Yeah. It takes outsiders screaming.

Unknown Speaker 1:16:59 It's gonna take that social outcry for people to realize it a lot more. And I think nowadays in age, it's a lot easier to get that social outcry and get people to actually use their voices to try to sway things a little bit. So I think now is the time where this campaign you're taking up actually has the ability to have the effect you're looking for.

Unknown Speaker 1:17:16 I think now is the first time that really did have that. No, I put forward the issue started. Temple, it we've all grown in popularity since started. Growing it I feel like only now is the point where I'm where I have the kind of leverage where I can do this journalist to cover the story where I've been able to get 1000 signatures, petition topic, and now like the force to be reckoned this issue and now some shitty pseudo Saxon has to finally be worried about my presence, because they know I'm a friend of theirs. And they know I won't stop until they're out of business.

Unknown Speaker 1:18:06 So So I'm guessing Ellen Lecter then knows who you are, and that you already

Unknown Speaker 1:18:11 knew who I was before. In 2009, I had a kind of a ritual of mind control netiquette. And I wrote about it, he could read it on process.org. My 2009. And this was one of the fight really started in earnest for me. Because, you know, my tendency might not be to just look at the creme de la. I was appalled when I went to this conference and saw that it was a professional conference. There were licensed professionals there. And they were putting most things. The woman was all about 40 years old, talking about how she was saving a personal slave, Dr. Josef Mengele. You know, it didn't even make sense. And it she was saying that he worked with something she called Quantum quantum resonance or something like that to open demonic Portal was. I mean, she was telling me most of the state delusional science fiction, supernatural narrative, yeah, some deep operational prose level I did to her anti abortion stance, and I was thinking or getting credits for this. And I wrote about this afterwards and it caused uproar within this conspiracist community. And Ellen lacquer was one of the first people to really sit that, that everything I said was defamatory. You know, she's putting forward these absurd and angry notions about me. And, you know, so she's known who I am for some. Well, I think I should Absolutely not personal. There's a lot of people I can come at personally about this issue. But the fact of the matter is she's got a tech kit behind her. Yeah. And she needs to, she needs to be confronted. Is my fear.

Unknown Speaker 1:20:17 Yeah, absolutely. And I think we should absolutely shine a spotlight on that. And, and we will definitely post links to all the bullshit that she's been promoting for so long. And yeah, I appreciate you doing that. I think that's really, I think that's a very noble thing to do.

Unknown Speaker 1:20:32 Well, I appreciate you paying attention to it. Like I've said, this has been a primary issue to me from before it started, I always wanted to stick to this issue, because it is just so difficult to get people. Yeah, I think I was no good. I'm really glad that that I'm getting people to realize what what this is and how meaningful this is, and how important an issue this is. Because it's something that's really bothered me for a long time in conspiracy theories in general, just the material effect they have on our culture, I think can't be can't be overstated. They need to be confronted at all. I think it's far more dyers than anybody cares.

Unknown Speaker 1:21:18 I think so too. Um, moving on, shall we cover a couple news items you might hang out to? to weigh in on some news things that we want to talk about? Yeah. Super. What do you got? Matt? You

Unknown Speaker 1:21:31 have got a new update on the the Oregon situation.

Unknown Speaker 1:21:34 Oh, yeah. Why don't Cliven was thrown in jail. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:21:38 So this story says that the filing this there's there's been a filing now and it's coming to the FBI on Friday, said it was working with the burns Paiute Tribe to identify damage to the tribes artifacts and sacred burial grounds at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge during the six week occupation of the bumbling, paranoid pseudo militia led by the Cliven kids clan and Mormon and Mormons. Yes, evidence teams began processing the crime scene at the refuge on Saturday, two days after the final occupiers surrendered, and the process will last about three weeks. According to the documents submitted in Oregon Federal Court on Tuesday, US Attorney Billy Williams of Oregon wrote in the final in the filing that investigators found significant amounts of human feces not named Ammon Bundy in a trench at an outdoor camping area that was either on or next to a sensitive cultural site. As Mormons they should have had more respect for laminate relics. But they failed to realize they were shitting more than just the US government says quote, occupiers appear to have excavated to large trenches and an improvised road on or adjacent to the grounds containing sensitive artifacts. So

Unknown Speaker 1:22:49 from what I read, they basically dug a trench and then shit in it right on top of the Native American burial ground.

Unknown Speaker 1:22:54 Yeah, yeah, that's, that's basically what it's looking like,

Unknown Speaker 1:22:57 while they said they were there to protect the Native American interests. And they were they're serving God and all they

Unknown Speaker 1:23:02 are a whole lot of bullshit laying all around, you know, just bullshit everywhere. Yeah. So that so this story really isn't getting any better. Even after they're gone.

Unknown Speaker 1:23:10 That was the story was at its best when they shot one of them.

Unknown Speaker 1:23:14 Yeah, yeah, that's true.

Unknown Speaker 1:23:17 I'm just surprised this kind of thing doesn't happen more often, given the tenor tone of the Fox News, drought and the the increasing militants. So the Republican Tea Party, right.

Unknown Speaker 1:23:31 Yeah, I was looking at I was looking at some statistics today. And it it showed that there was a significant increase in these pseudo militia groups during Clinton's administration, and then down to like, almost nothing during George W. Bush, and then it's almost doubled under Obama. You know, it's been the game the whole time that Republicans just don't want to play by the rules, unless it suits them.

Unknown Speaker 1:23:53 I also think a lot of these groups are a lot of bark and no bite.

Unknown Speaker 1:23:56 Right. But when there's Republican in office, you'll be hearing our president right or wrong. It's treason to question your present. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, sure.

Unknown Speaker 1:24:06 Well, yeah, we heard that kind of bullshit when GW was enough. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you don't you shouldn't question a wartime president. He's under a lot of stress. Right. He's the fucker who put us into a war situation. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:24:18 But yet they're the same people that are perfectly happy to go say that Obama was the one that assassinated justice Sherea in Texas,

Unknown Speaker 1:24:29 and then to be a constitutional elected representative saying that the President doesn't have to

Unknown Speaker 1:24:35 be saying that. I've heard these rumblings that that was what the claim was this Alex Jones.

Unknown Speaker 1:24:41 Alex Jones is the one that came out and said that he believes that Obama had Justice Scalia executed so that way he could get another liberal in the office. He can wipe God off the earth and take away our guns. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 1:24:53 it was it was stupid. Shit, you know, Alex Jones, we had the black man sin going on at Harvard. He He said that if he were confronted by me, you would have to punch me or something like that. And I really want that stupid slob to have that opportunity. Give me that opportunity to defend myself against him. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:25:14 I would love that also. Well, yeah, it was,

Unknown Speaker 1:25:16 I would love that.

Unknown Speaker 1:25:17 It was Alex Jones. And then Rick Wiles went on this fucking rant recently about how clearly Scalia was murdered because the pillow was over his face, despite all of the all of the stories coming out from the manager at the hotel who said that no, the pillow wasn't over his face, it was behind his head, because that's how people fucking sleep, you know, saying that the pillow was over his face and that Obama killed him. And then he went into this rant about fucking numerology, and, and some kind of pagan holiday that fell around the time and then it was on the 13th and all of this other bullshit.

Unknown Speaker 1:25:52 And being a 79 year old, obese white man had nothing to do with it.

Unknown Speaker 1:25:55 Nothing at all.

Unknown Speaker 1:25:56 I actually have that story. Oh, yeah. Rama, I'm just trying to see where I want to cut in here.

Unknown Speaker 1:26:01 I've seen people I know people comment all the time. And they say it's not you. You can celebrate somebody stabbed or whatever. Well, you can because all he was to us. possibility for horrible policy. Yeah, and not the possibility for you know what I mean, it's not that I don't know his family. You know, I don't know him. All he is, to me is a very problematic element. That's that's gone away because he's died. So that's what I'm saying. Yeah. I mean, it's obvious. Wait, so he seemed to be getting a lot crazier. As time went on. He very recently made some very insane statements. I didn't know how he was just fine in in vivo, with any different stores constitutional law, talking about how I mean, one of the recent crazies, he went off on talking about how, you know, he thought it was it was constitutionally correct, that a state could put forward its own state religion in you know, he just seemed like a very dangerous person to have sitting as a Supreme Court justice right now. And I think we're better off that he's not there.

Unknown Speaker 1:27:06 Yeah, yeah. He's a theocratic justice. Yeah. And whenever people say that, you know, you're we shouldn't celebrate somebody's death. I say, sweet. Let's get rid of the New Testament. Perfect done.

Unknown Speaker 1:27:17 Well, I said to did you, did you not celebrate Saddam Hussein's death? Or? Jesus Christ? Well, I tried to bring it more relevant. Like when when, when we when we found out we killed Osama bin Laden, did you not hear? Because that's kind of insulting. That's kind of insensitive? Yeah. His relatives were probably might been a little torn

Unknown Speaker 1:27:36 on that. And people say something like, well, we shouldn't celebrate the death of anybody and you shouldn't wish death on anybody. And I'm like, No, there's a whole fucking lot of people that I would much rather see dead than continuing their their harm on the rest of the populace. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:27:51 Oh, come on. You you live to that age anyways, and your your slob? Is this? I mean, you've had a good run. Scalia was only going to do his damage at this point. Yeah, it let's not pretend he's anything other than that to us. You know, I mean, it, are we going to pretend that we can have the same amount of empathy for Scalia. When that's all we know about him as we have for our next door neighbor, who might be some kind of hardcore Republican by you go over and talk to him anyway. You know what I mean, it's completely natural that you don't develop that type of empathy with somebody you don't know.

Unknown Speaker 1:28:30 Yeah. It's it's a feigned compassion and empathy for somebody that you don't fucking know, outside of what they've done to harm you.

Unknown Speaker 1:28:38 Right, right. Exactly. I mean, I think people should, it's really incumbent on people to realize that that's what you're celebrating, you know, not necessarily though the loss of a human life who, admittedly had a family and those types of things. In regard to the fact that you don't know that family, you don't know any of those elements. It's in regard to the elements you do know. Yeah, sure.

Unknown Speaker 1:29:03 And, and I, when I heard of his death, I think the the thing I posted on Facebook was something along the lines of, you know, I'm sure that there are people who loved and will mourn, Justice Scalia, I'm not one of them. And so that's that's about the kindest thing that you will get out of me. As far as his life and his work. I'm sure you know, he, by many accounts was a was an intelligent man who had a great love of the country and the Constitution, but managed through all of that to do his best to fuck it all up.

Unknown Speaker 1:29:34 Yeah. I made no and I had zero respect for him.

Unknown Speaker 1:29:37 Yeah, yeah, I don't give a shit at all. Either way. I'm not even gonna pretend to try to make any. I'm glad the fuckers dead and he's out of our way. Yeah. Oh, good for you.

Unknown Speaker 1:29:50 It's refreshing to hear that I really get sick of hearing that kind of disingenuous semblait you know, all that kind of stuff. Have claims that that kind of false, as you said that false empathy. Yeah. It just doesn't ring true at all.

Unknown Speaker 1:30:08 Yeah, at least now that he's dead, we know that we're all in a better place.

Unknown Speaker 1:30:16 Obama manages to not put forward a Supreme Court nomination the rest of his term. That would be a sad commentary on their disability.

Unknown Speaker 1:30:26 Yeah, I know, I know. You said he will. And the average time it takes is 63 days to elect a just 2525 25 is the average. But I thought I also read that if they do not allow him to elect the justice, this will be the longest time is taken to elect the justice and civil war. No, it

Unknown Speaker 1:30:43 will be the longest time in history in history. Okay. Yeah. And and Obama can't get somebody nominated and confirmed it will be the longest period in the history of the United States.

Unknown Speaker 1:30:52 Maybe the previous longest was during the Civil War. And this old Trump that time

Unknown Speaker 1:30:56 probably Lucian just inadvertently and most likely unknowingly provided us the smoothest segue we have ever had on this show. Into the the obstructionism of Mitch McConnell and his, his Republican cronies. Well, let's hear about it. Well, I mean, I think I think we've already sort of started to talk about it. But I mean, the the main story out of Washington is Mitch McConnell strategy to maintain the Republican majority, which has been clear trying to prove that his party can govern, but by saying he'll block his Supreme Court nominee who has not even been named, McConnell's heading toward a partisan is, is heading toward partisan warfare instead, I would argue that they're already well on their way. I mean, not not headed toward but yeah, it's there. The death of Antonin Sherea was entered has energized a right flank, been long suspicious of Mr. McConnell and forced him into the fight, that's likely to derail his smooth functioning Senate. This is New York Times. By the way, the tactic could alienate moderate voters and imperil incumbent Republicans in swing states. But in the supercharged partisan ship of the Supreme Court fight, he probably had no choice. By framing his decision as deferring to voters in the next election. people close to him say he has minimized the political risks. It was necessary, says Josh Holmes, Mr. McConnell's former chief of staff who now works as a Republican consultant, the suggestion that the American people should have a say here isn't exactly risky ground to be treading. My objection to this, though, is that the American people have already spoken. Yeah, they've already elected. Yeah, he won by what 5 million votes last time?

Unknown Speaker 1:32:38 That's that's part of the President's duties is to nominate a Supreme Court justice have a seat comes available

Unknown Speaker 1:32:44 in the job of the Senate in the house is not to say no, we don't want it. It's just look at the qualifications of the person. Okay, this person is qualified

Unknown Speaker 1:32:51 well, and to call a vote either way. Yeah, you just stand there obstructing thing. You don't just take

Unknown Speaker 1:32:56 your ball and go home? Well, they talked themselves when they first went up and said, We're not going to let anybody in fact themselves.

Unknown Speaker 1:33:01 Yeah. Which is bullshit. Right. And this what it goes on to say is that McConnell strategic affront, announcing just hours after Justice Scalia's death that he would refuse to even consider a replacement was presaged by other Republican moves over the last two years. A week ago, the Republican chairman of the House and Senate Budget Committees said that the President's Budget Director should not be allowed to testify at their budget hearings or move without modern precedent. Yeah, and can we just dispense with this whole fucking narrative of the Democrats always try to politicize death and try to politicize shootings and everything

Unknown Speaker 1:33:33 else? That's That's fucking nonsense. I mean, the Republicans had this canned fucking response. Within hours of Scalise announced debt,

Unknown Speaker 1:33:42 maybe they killed them.

Unknown Speaker 1:33:44 I don't think that benefits them in any way at some Alex Jones level shit worse. Worse, because he's saying that the Liberals did it. Just goes on to say that in a twist, the greatest beneficiary of McConnell's strategy, maybe that may be the Republican White House candidate, he and his Senate Republicans like the least, Ted Cruz of Texas, a former Supreme Court Clerk who's quick and stalwart opposition to any confirmation is certain to resonate with the most tuned in Republican primary voters. If that's not a fucking oxymoron. I've never heard them been Republicans tuned into Fox maybe. Mr. Cruz said on ABC This Week on Sunday that he would filibuster any nominee Mr. Obama might offer election needs to be a referendum on the court, he said. So Senator Chuck Schumer jumped in and said that McConnell's precipitous, precipitous action is reminiscent of his statement in 2010, that his prime goal was to prevent Obama's reelection. Obama hadn't presented his proposals for the upcoming Congress. Now he hasn't named a nominee for the court. He realizes it's better for his senators up for reelection to show he's working in a bipartisan way. But any efforts in the direction have been undone by that action. Schumer and other Democrats note that two of the justices on court Kennedy and Thomas were nominated by Republican presidents and confirmed when Democrats held the majority in the Senate, which goes to my previous point that Democrats tend more to play by the rules, and Republicans are just refusing to do that at this point. What can be done about that? I mean, if Republicans take this position, and they just decide that they're going to go work by the rules when it benefits them, but they're they're not going to play the game at all, when it doesn't, what can be done about that? Not a whole lot. Really.

Unknown Speaker 1:35:25 I mean, they're they're going to do it either way. There's there's really not a whole lot that you can do about it, other than call them out for their bullshit. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 1:35:33 I mean, they don't seem to give a shit. True. Bernie Sanders said about this, that this is this is not something that is in debate, the Constitution of the United States of America provides that the President appoints nominates and nominates a Supreme Court justice. And then the Senate holds hearings and deliberation on and votes on whether or not to approve that nomination. Well, well,

Unknown Speaker 1:35:52 and even Mitch McConnell back in the 70s, I believe it was wrote that presidents that's that's part of their duty, and that the Senate should not stand in the way of

Unknown Speaker 1:36:02 of doing that was when a Republican Republican was in office. Yeah, yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:36:06 Right. Well, yeah, I was gonna say wasn't McConnell, also part of the voting group that put was at Kennedy on the Supreme Court in Reagan's last in his final year during an election year?

Unknown Speaker 1:36:16 Well, they're just pissed that Kennedy got in and has been voting somewhat liberally lately.

Unknown Speaker 1:36:22 That's totally unexpected. Yeah, they would. They didn't expect that from somebody who was appointed by a Republican president.

Unknown Speaker 1:36:28 I think we're reaching the end tonight. You guys. Is it that time it's pretty close.

Unknown Speaker 1:36:33 Well, what have you got to plug for us, Doug, I see that you are scheduled to speak at what is it? Sasha con?

Unknown Speaker 1:36:39 Yes, I am. Thinking somewhere. Troy speaking somewhere in Atlanta. This is all within the next three months here. I don't know where else to check my Facebook page. I'll have that posted.

Unknown Speaker 1:36:54 Well, and I saw that you you deactivated your Doug Messner account and are just operating under the Lucian grieves page. Is that right? That is

Unknown Speaker 1:37:02 correct. Yeah. The, you know, having my personal profile wasn't really working out. Everybody was requesting was to me friend requests, and it was becoming like a fanpage. Anyway, so I decided just to go fanpage.

Unknown Speaker 1:37:19 Yeah, well, it gets a little difficult. I know. I'm a member of several of the different Satanic Temple officials slash non official Facebook groups and pages and whatever. And I'm often disheartened by the amount of nonsense that I see posted out there by people who are spiritual, but not religious. And they're Satanists. And they want to believe in all kinds of fucking Woo and nonsense and bullshit. And anytime you try to point it out, it's you're attacking me and you're a bad person. I don't Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 1:37:49 I don't know. There's a certain tenderness we seem to be attracting lately that I hope kind of dies down there time.

Unknown Speaker 1:37:56 I agree wholeheartedly.

Unknown Speaker 1:37:58 People need to remember the freedom to offend aspect. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 1:38:02 absolutely. Well, and that's just it, you know, people post insane nonsense out there. And anytime that I've called them out on it, or even just asked simple questions about it, it's, well, this is what I believe in. You shouldn't challenge me about it. Okay. Well, continue living in your fucking delusional little world. And I guess I I'll just have

Unknown Speaker 1:38:22 you there to be challenged. But, yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:38:27 Well, I think that's what we should be doing. But in some of the forums, it's, it's become obvious to me that that is an unwelcome thing to do. And so, for the most part, I've stopped commenting on a lot of things and you know, I'll post an I'll make an initial post but I don't even bother with commenting on a lot of different things because people get so fucking upset about being challenged about anything any stupid thing that they choose to believe what I'm not really up on the Constitution, but which amendment is the right to safe split safe place?

Unknown Speaker 1:39:01 Alternate the butthurt amendment. Oh, it's

Unknown Speaker 1:39:03 okay.

Unknown Speaker 1:39:06 Don't don't get to start with safe spaces and trigger warnings. That it's not my territory. Oh.

Unknown Speaker 1:39:14 Well, thank you so much for joining us tonight. Doug. I really appreciate everything you're doing. I'm a huge huge fan. And we all are Yeah, hopefully

Unknown Speaker 1:39:23 anytime check in with me again soon. I'll be around. All right,

Unknown Speaker 1:39:27 I would I would absolutely love to do so. And I would like to say that I promised that I won't be drunk texting you anytime in the near future. But that's not a guarantee that I can absolutely make.

Unknown Speaker 1:39:37 Next time I talk to you guys that won't be drunk either.

Unknown Speaker 1:39:42 Well, thanks a lot Doug. I really appreciate them and enjoy the rest of your night. Been a pleasure.

Unknown Speaker 1:39:46 Thank you. Good night.

Unknown Speaker 1:39:47 All right, take care, buddy. And that was Mr. Doug Messner of the Satanic Temple who we I really fucking love that guy. He's so cool. Yeah, he's just such a genuine. I mean, there's nothing fake or false about in its this is what I think and here's why and I have good justification for for doing so. i Believing so

Unknown Speaker 1:40:07 I think he made a really good point there near the end. Well stop being fucking fake and just say whatever the fuck you want. Yeah, yeah, like when Matt said fuck that guy.

Unknown Speaker 1:40:16 No I said I'm glad he's dead Yeah, I don't give a shit.

Unknown Speaker 1:40:19 Well if and and that's what you're saying like if you can't defend an opinion that you have, then you probably shouldn't have that opinion. Right, right i mean yeah any opinion that you hold or have should be a justified opinion Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 1:40:31 yeah and me saying that I'm glad Scalia's Dead has nothing to do with I mean it's a total red herring to say well I know he's got family and all that fuck yeah okay so what they're probably they're probably heard about it of course they feel bad about of course they feel bad about him dying me personally fucking I'm glad he was in a position of power and he used it in the wrong way every time as much as he could for a long fucking time. Yeah, so fucking I'm glad he's gone. For all

Unknown Speaker 1:40:58 we know his kids hated him. And and the problem is which

Unknown Speaker 1:41:01 tattoo? Yeah, that's true.

Unknown Speaker 1:41:03 I know that. I mean to say to say the opposite is to assume that you know the minds of the people that were around. Yeah. And that's that's a fucking arrogant position to hold. Yeah. And he's a staunch Catholic. He

Unknown Speaker 1:41:12 probably raped him all.

Unknown Speaker 1:41:15 Probably a guarantee and I'm gonna assume

Unknown Speaker 1:41:17 my Guaran fucking tee. Raped all of his family.

Unknown Speaker 1:41:21 Did you see that smile on that, man? That man always had the I rate my son's smile on his face. Oh,

Unknown Speaker 1:41:26 good. No, they're gonna stay in the show there. Yeah, absolutely. Fuck yeah, yeah, absolutely there. Yeah, absolutely. I felt like that was a Scooby. Yeah, Apple Diablo. No, there is a long list of fucking people that I would not at all miss if they were to fucking keel over and die tomorrow. Ted Cruz. Ted Cruz. Oh, God. Oh, Donald Trump. Almost almost the whole rest of the Supreme Court.

Unknown Speaker 1:41:52 Honestly. Not that I wouldn't be a part of it. Almost the whole rest.

Unknown Speaker 1:41:56 Well, I would make it with Clarence Thomas.

Unknown Speaker 1:41:58 Maybe half yo, sure. Yeah. What is he gonna do now? That fucking school is dead? Who's gonna? Who's he gonna follow?

Unknown Speaker 1:42:03 I think Marco Rubio is trying to be a nice guy. I mean, not as a politician. But I think in real life, you might not be a halfway horrible dude. He's fucking He's insane. You know, he's got nothing compared to the rest on that panel.

Unknown Speaker 1:42:16 Whether in real life, he is a nice guy or not. He is still in inserting Fucking Jesus into everything that he says. I say, because I was trying to get that demographic to vote for I and I enter that I say fuck you either are delusional or you're an asshole. So it's Hillary.

Unknown Speaker 1:42:32 I actually get the feeling that Rubio is more dishonest than like Cruz and Christie, who are very open and honest about the things that they believe whether they're bullshit, their total

Unknown Speaker 1:42:42 bullshit. Truth is that I think me I think Rubio doesn't show up to work.

Unknown Speaker 1:42:45 I think Rubio and Trump are just complete fucking frauds. I want not Trump. Yes. Right. At least partly fraudulent. Yeah. And in my he seems he comes across that way and Cruz is just fucking scary. That is just terrifying in my mind that Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 1:43:00 I mean, it will and crazy dad, not just the Ted Cruz's fucking crazy, but there are millions of people who think that he's a good guy, that he would make a great president. He's chosen by God. Yeah, he's I said playing and I was gonna backtrack and say person, but no, he's the thing that would be would be a good solution for any kind of problem that we have in the United States.

Unknown Speaker 1:43:24 Right? He will make me believe in the reptilian race taking over this world. Yeah, I could see

Unknown Speaker 1:43:29 that. I decided what I think he looks like

Unknown Speaker 1:43:34 he's just he's a terrible fucking human being. And the part about it is that you would guess that through his education and life experiences, he should know better, but he does not know he's actively fucking ignorant about the world around him. And the reality in which he lives

Unknown Speaker 1:43:52 when he actually can say God, first country second. Yeah, that's all, you know,

Unknown Speaker 1:43:57 immediate disqualification. Yeah, immediately disqualified. You're not elected as God's representative here on fucking Earth. You're elected as the United States President. Well, I

Unknown Speaker 1:44:07 mean, think think about think about that in some other situation. Let's take the Super Bowl, for example, which is not at all, nearly the steaks that we're talking about four most powerful position in the world. And this year, we had, you know, Peyton Manning. Yeah. and Cam Newton. Yeah. And let's, let's say that aside from rapist Manning, which is another story we didn't get to coming out. Let's let's say he came out and said, what he came out as a rapist. No, no, no, no. allegations. Of course, he didn't come out with it. So let's say he came out and said, you know, he's a Southerner, and he went to school in Tennessee.

Unknown Speaker 1:44:45 Let's sounds rapey to me.

Unknown Speaker 1:44:46 Pretty great. Now,

Unknown Speaker 1:44:47 that's not even the point that I'm trying to say. But I mean, like, he's always grabbed some pigs in. What if he said, I'm a Panther first and a Bronco second, and he comes out, he's playing for the Broncos. That's what we're talking about. That's the kind of of bullshit allegiance we're talking about except

Unknown Speaker 1:45:03 the guy. I wouldn't trust him in a game versus Panthers because you don't want to side with them.

Unknown Speaker 1:45:07 Exactly. And the Constitution in the Bible are opposed on a lot of issues. And if you're saying that I'm against the Constitution before I'm for it, well, that that should automatically display. You're done. You're, you know, we can't trust you. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 1:45:22 I absolutely see where you're coming from and completely agree. I think that fucking Ted Cruz is as much as it almost pains me to say it. He's so much worse than Donald Trump. Yeah, yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:45:34 At that point, I would almost want Donald in office rather than

Unknown Speaker 1:45:37 not almost for me. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:45:40 Yeah, I'm glad you followed me. Thanks for picking me up on that. Analogies are supposed to make things more simple, but I sort of got lost on the rape train there.

Unknown Speaker 1:45:50 Usually when I make analogies that happen,

Unknown Speaker 1:45:51 I get lost on the rape train. Well, thank you very much for tuning in everybody. You can find us on Facebook at godless revolution, slash Facebook or Facebook. I've had way too much. facebook.com Follow us on Facebook. Find us on facebook.com/godless revolution. You can twitter Outwater add tgr podcast only two fingers, two fingers. Well, if you want to water that's a that's a workable amount of whiskey.

Unknown Speaker 1:46:21 I was trying to make a sexual joke with

Unknown Speaker 1:46:24 I'll take one Pinkie, two in the pink one in the state of

Unknown Speaker 1:46:29 the shocker. You can you can now we're off the rails you can call us we're off the rape train rails. You can you can call and leave us a message or send us a text message at 33081 Rebel.

Unknown Speaker 1:46:45 I heard I heard ex refer on the Utah outcasts attempt that attempt to that while you were giving your plugs on there I thought it was a decent attempt made me smile a little bit nobody should ever go listen to the Utah outcasts they ever record never

Unknown Speaker 1:47:02 ever Sunday. No I was recently I guessed on the godless rebel or I was a guest on the godless rebels.

Unknown Speaker 1:47:12 Gasser 93 Episode How much fucking whiskey have I had

Unknown Speaker 1:47:15 the most recently a guest on the godless revolution but also

Unknown Speaker 1:47:20 a guest on the Utah outcasts podcast and had a great time. I really like all those people. Felicia Entwistle, of course, is the beautiful, awesome, wonderful, talented, brilliant woman who is serving as president for atheists of Utah. Currently, X for read. Chris is the host or one of the hosts of the Utah outcasts.

Unknown Speaker 1:47:43 I always thought it was Christopher. It is Christ for that. Okay,

Unknown Speaker 1:47:46 that's I think that's why he goes by x a lot of Yeah, yeah. And him and him and what's her name? Felician

Unknown Speaker 1:47:52 Twizzler they do a good job with bryceton Twizzler they do a good job. I was on the show.

Unknown Speaker 1:47:57 I was Yeah, I was trying to get to. Kyle is an awesome guy. We talked about the Deadpool movie. Which Have you seen it

Unknown Speaker 1:48:04 yet? Man? I hope to see it this week. No. Oh, God.

Unknown Speaker 1:48:08 It's fucking awesome. I need to go see it again. It was I fucking loved every minute of the Deadpool movie. It was it was amazing. It opens with like a full Don't fucking Ronettes opening scene in like, I'm not giving anything away here. It's, it's brilliant. I fucking loved every minute of it. I need to go see it again. Because the jokes come at you so rapidly that your while you're laughing at one joke, you miss the next joke. Okay, so I need to go see it again. I really, really enjoyed being on the Utah outcasts show. You should definitely go there twice. I've been on there twice. Matt will never be on there. Ryan has been on there twice. And actually, when I was on the show, we joked about Matt will maybe never ever be on there. Well, because you know if they

Unknown Speaker 1:48:56 would accept handwritten letters really fine. If they could, if they could have me on there via carrier pigeon. Hey, you know what? It's not my fault. They can't read cursive.

Unknown Speaker 1:49:11 Anyway, thank you very much for tuning in everybody. Next week. We will? I don't know. I'm not sure what we're gonna be doing yet.

Unknown Speaker 1:49:17 We'll figure it out.

Unknown Speaker 1:49:18 We'll discuss that offline. I think maybe we'll be doing a Republican. Serious. We haven't done a debate for a little while. Oh,

Unknown Speaker 1:49:25 I knew they wanted. I've, you

Unknown Speaker 1:49:28 know, they're there. They want it. They're like our most popular show, you know, or they still are when we do the debate. I think Dave Silverman is our most popular show. Yeah, so let's Well, yeah. Apart from having no apart from having Doug and Dave on the show. They're they're our most popular shows is when we do the debate. I

Unknown Speaker 1:49:43 was just hoping to get back into debates heavy when it turns into a Republican and Democrat.

Unknown Speaker 1:49:48 Yeah. Well, I think this will be exciting because it will be the last Republican debate. Oh, before Super Tuesday. Yeah, they're gonna be cutting throats and yeah, it's gonna be bold. To the wall, throat slitting, stabbing whatever they can do to possibly increase their poll numbers ahead of super Tuesday's. Yeah, that should be a lot of fun. Super Tuesday sounds like another fucking Marvel movie that's going to be coming out soon. It might be you know, Hero no probably will be. So we will chat Toronto dumpster

Unknown Speaker 1:50:21 What did i What did they keep saying fucking Donald Cruise

Unknown Speaker 1:50:24 was that Yeah, yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:50:25 Was it Donald cruise up names? Was it Donald cruise or had Trump? Well, yeah, it wasn't it wasn't Donald Trump. It was that was Donald cruise. Yeah. I drink too much. All right. We'll talk to y'all next week. Bye.

Unknown Speaker 1:50:41 Don't forget to fill your ear holes with us right brains

Unknown Speaker 1:50:57 man mean you a negro was your name? It couldn't have been Smith. Or Jones No, what was your name? And why don't you now history the man the man is the man to make you as you are right

Unknown Speaker 1:51:29 now killer, Big Black River, King Kong. Nigga Stephen Nichols diggin The foolish man nigga. I don't know man. Not to snack aka Tama Kai to mass over Obama. You could have a million dollars in a white liberation for more than a damn dollar what Christ gave Kane gave a billion dollars in slave nickel quit and Nana tools. Great. I'd never be a I'd rather be a pressure on ice to chill. The pressure. Pressure. Pressure, pressure Oh Toby put the pressure. The pressure on me put the pressure on. pressure. Pressure, pressure, pressure I'm here to deprogram you don't forget what they made you great grandmama do what they made your great granddaddy do without $1 or a penny or thank you the same motherfuckers want to gank you because they hate you in a policy that you can't get anybody tell me that in a truth that these motherfuckers ain't gonna hurt you the rocky up beat you up in birth you put on my phone a 30 curve lusail little window for you even got a little chair we take a please I'm a beat in the breeze beat him with my friend like the Japanese now mobile sees and Japanese bank got the CAC and what was right pressure on ice to be jealous. pressure pressure pressure pressure, pressure pressure pressure pressure pressure pressure pressure black creatures which are key trees in the field of government and religion issue a freedom fighter is shut down for your people into big messy dirty nigga work you're lucky a you a dirty fucking Bush another politician and getting to know her as quickly as the old lady died nice city. We affirm now. These victories can't win but 20 years it's just a fucking joke. With that white man profaci got pressure on the pressure. The pressure pressure, pressure, pressure pressure on Kobe put the pressure pressure, pressure, pressure pressure to break down this rampart run. These people and ham sandwich in New York kill the junk truck in Atlanta killed the grandmother and politicians saying save deaths a bus damage from the black pigs don't be killed Shawn, decide to green powder for your waist trainer trash. Jesus from Becky's nori your ways that you burn in kale to your turn white hey you can keep it I wish you nothing but pain and fail away from you will no honor in life no honor in death you assume this. Pressure, pressure, pressure, pressure, pressure, pressure, pressure, pressure, pressure, pressure, pressure.

Unknown Speaker 1:55:50 No Negro meters have fought for civil rights they have begged the white man for civil rights they have big the white man for freedom and anytime you beg another man to set you free, you will never be free. Freedom is something that you have to do for yourself. And I tell the American Negro that's white men know that we are really, really ready and willing to pay the price that is necessary for freedom. Our people will always be walking around here, second class citizens or what you call 20th century slaves. What price are you talking about? The price of freedom is debts