Podcasts/HS-Ep59

Hail Satan Ep. 59 - The Redemption of Shane Bugbee
June 20, 2022
An interview with infamous satanist Shane Bugbee. He discusses the founding of The Satanic Temple, meeting Anton LaVey, and more.
https://hailsatan.simplecast.com/episodes/shane-bugbee

Transcript

Joseph Rose 0:23
Greetings heathens. Welcome to Hail Satan. This is the podcast exploring Satanism, culture and life in general through the eyes of modern Satanists. My name is Joseph Rose. I'm a member of an amazing independent congregation called Satanic Delco. And we welcome members from anywhere in the world. If you want to learn a little more about that, visit satanicdelco.com. And speaking of satanic delko, just a couple of days ago, I delivered our outsider Achievement Award to some high school students out here in Delaware County. This was the second year in a row that we've done this. And of course, the kids were pumped to receive their awards, each student is awarded a nice little certificate, as well as $666 in cash to each of them. It's a little award we give out to some students who submit creative works, embracing their outsider status. So congratulations to those kids. And thank you to everyone in satanic delko for participating. Hopefully, we will do it again next year. I anticipate that we will. Today on the show. I'm going to have a conversation with Shane Bugbee. If you've traveled the world of Satanism for any stretch of time, you probably know at least a little something about Shane, but if not, we're going to change that today. First, let me acknowledge a few rad Satanists out there that have joined us on Patreon recently, we have Scarlet moon, and MRI. Bo Corey, Alyssa Susan, Lydia, Teresa Gorman, Jeremiah. Thank you guys. I say it all the time, of course. But the fact that you all find some value in what I do and choose to support it really means the world to me. I appreciate you very much. Thank you. If you have a moment out there everyone, please visit the website at Hail Satan podcast.com. You will find links on the website to join me on social media, a form to send me an email and a link to join up with us all on Patreon. And we have a few different tiers over there to choose from with various benefits, including the amazing greetings from hell satanic postcard of the Month Club. There are some exciting things coming related to that postcard of the Month Club. That is the most direct way you can support me and this show if you'd like to do that. So visit Hail Satan podcast.com. Okay. Our guest today is the infamous Shane Bugbee. He's an artist with a long twisted history in modern Satanism. Welcome, Shane. Oh, thank you very much for having me. I'm happy to have you. I reached out to Shane randomly on Twitter. To be honest, Shane, I didn't really expect a quick direct reply from you. I didn't know that you would see it. I didn't know how active you might be on there. But I just posted up one day saying Man, I'd like to have a chat with Shane Bugbee. I bet he's got some stories to tell. And before long, there you are.

Shane Bugbee 3:34
Yeah, I'm accessible. I hear that often. Like people are shocked when I'm accessible for some reason. I don't know why that is. But it sounds cool. I guess I don't know. Mysterious. I don't know how to take that. But, I'm glad. I'm glad that you reached out. Yeah. So in the satanic community, it seems people are afraid to reach out to me or I'm not really sure why. But I'm glad you did.

Joseph Rose 3:58
Right on. So am I. So many of the listeners of this podcast are new to Satanism. And often enough, this podcast is their introduction to the idea of Satanism. So for those newer people who might not be familiar, can you give us a brief introduction as to who you are as it relates to modern Satanism?

Shane Bugbee 4:19
Well, okay. I'm one of the few remaining members of the old guard of the Church of Satan, which means that Anton LaVey gave me the authority to talk about his religion and his his philosophy. By making me a high priest in the Church of Satan. I was the last person he made a Priest or Reverend in the Church of Satan. And before he passed away, and I met Anton LaVey, through reprinting the book Might is Right that he borrowed from, for the Satanic Bible. So my introduction to Anton LaVey wasn't a person that was looking to be a Satanist. Or I wasn't even a fan of his necessarily, I'd sold a bunch of satanic Bibles out of my gallery. And I hadn't even read it. And so I went there and he was a pop culture icon to me, it was just another person. I was interviewing a famous person, you could say, or a person of interest, I'd like to say, I guess, and we became friends. And at some point, he called me Blanche called and Anton's in the back and they say, you know, "Shane, you have, we want to give you this authority to speak for Satanism and stuff." And I thought, wow, that's cool. But what does it get me? What will? What will I get out of this? Do I get free, something free? Do I get discounts at certain restaurants? And you know, Blanche just laughed and said, use it when it behooves you and then here we are. 30 I don't know how long it's so long ago, but like 30 years later, it's Satanism as the art movement has grown quite a bit.

Joseph Rose 5:49
Yeah, I suspect it really has since then. How did Satanism first come to your attention? And what was appealing about it to you?

Shane Bugbee 5:58
Oh, rebelion. Ozzy Osbourne, you know, young kid, 12-11 years old, Black Sabbath, heavy metal. I'm a working class, white trash, I would say, come from, you know, uneducated folks. So my introduction to that stuff was Ozzy Osbourne sound, Mr. Crowley, you know, so, what is that? What is the Crowley? You know, so that started my research, you know, like that, that started it. But then you're talking about like, my, my interest wasn't in the Satanism, it was like, in the understanding human nature. So it's like, I have a journalistic thing I asked questions. So when that all started to happen, I was also interested in cults, like Osho, or Bhawan, Raha Nishi. He went by Osho had a cult they call it a cult, and Oregon, was into Jim Jones. So I started going to the library and using the internet before it was the internet was called microfiche. We would look at files and I would just do my research at like, 11-12... 10, from like about 10 or 11 years old on these kinds of odd people, people would call them odd. I was just like, wow, these people are really affecting the people. People are these are wrong people. These are bad people. And I'm like, What's so wrong about this? What's so bad about it? So I just start, once someone said something was wrong or bad. I wanted to know why. That's where I came to be here.

Joseph Rose 7:27
Yeah, I think I can relate similar beginnings. At some point, you joined up with the Church of Satan. But it seems like you didn't stop at merely becoming a member. Can you talk a little bit about your experiences interacting with the Church of Satan and Anton LaVey?

Shane Bugbee 7:45
Yeah, my, my I didn't, I didn't join the Church of Satan. The Church of Satan joined me. Anton LaVey. Harvested his priests are His people, His spokespeople his will call me to talk to you youngsters, his brand ambassadors, his brand ambassadors, he would look to the influencers, and he would study them. And so well, I forgot your question already starting to think about those old days. What was that question?

Joseph Rose 8:11
Again, just about once you became connected to the Church of Satan, maybe just talk a little bit about your experiences interacting with the church and with Anton himself.

Shane Bugbee 8:21
Yeah, there's a long story with that go, you know, I they sent me a membership card after I sent them. I sent it in time. When I went back in the day, you Chicago ways you Greece people's palms, you give people money, and they talk to you. And so when I would want to do interviews with people like that, I'd send them gifts or money and say, Please respond to this letter. And LaVey sent me a membership card back and I sent it back to him saying, I'm not a member of anything. And they said, Just keep it and they sent it back to me. And so it was sort of like that. Not that I i am i wasn't i They don't kick you out. I wish they would, you know, they I am a member. You know, I'm a person that Anton bestow that honor to but I'm not active with any organizations. I don't feel comfortable being involved with organizations.

Joseph Rose 9:06
Is this right that you were the last person to interview Anton?

Shane Bugbee 9:10
Yes.

Joseph Rose 9:11
How did that come about?

Shane Bugbee 9:12
Well, I came about through me threatening him. Like I said, I found might is right. I thought... I was, I was reading the Satanic Bible at the same exact time... Okay, so someone gave me the Satanic Bible says here, You gotta read this. You're just like this. You're a Satanist. So I'll read it. I'm familiar with the book. And I'm familiar with underground fringe culture I was involved with so I'm, I understand, at that point about LaVey the same as I understand about a Timothy Leary, or and Abbie Hoffman. And so I read the Satanic Bible, and at the same time, I'm doing the Milwaukee Metal Fest. Now, this is a precursor to one of the festivals you see around the country today. Yeah. And so I'm working at the Milwaukee Metal Fest, a bunch of white supremacist come to want to run advertisements in the book and all this and at that moment, you know, I'm you know, and this is, you know, this is back then this is I get how you guys think about things today, but I'm just letting you know like it was a similar conversation, like it was, this is free speech. You know it's you have to take the money you have to do this and I consulted the person of color who was doing the cover art and the Jewish person that was writing for me, the major writer for that magazine asked me if I should take the money. They said yes. And here we are. I'm publishing my they give me a copy of Might is Right. And I'm reading and at the same time, I'm reading the Satanic Bible, and I go to the person that gave me the Satanic Bible. I'm like, you know, this is the same fucking book. And they're like, oh, everyone rips off LaVey. I'm like, Nah, it's 100 years older than love a, I mean, this is, this is the same book, I think he took some stuff out here. As an artist. I'm okay with what he did you know, people called plagiarizing. And those people are probably not artists or creative people. But that's what artists do. We sort of do that. And so it was just surprising to me. So I started talking to the Nazis, like, hey, how does this relate to Satanism? And, and there, there was I put out might is right, and I had Anton LaVey, as the foreword to Nazi as the afterword. And that was, you know, for me, I love juxtaposing shit like that. So it was really great moment for me, because I'd have death threats from Nazis, and they'd write me or call my office and say, you know, we're going to come and kill you. But the Nazis would sign their full name and put a social security number down or their address. And then the satanists would, would would write me and be offended. We're going to curse you to death. [laughter] We're going to curse you a magic spell is upon you now, because you did this with the Nazi. So it's just fun to get grief from both sides. For me. Yeah, you know, I wasn't I didn't think about it as we do today about platforming, dangerous... platforming people who aren't really into free speech. That's a hard one for me to get around. I'm all for people talking about really fucked up stuff.

Joseph Rose 11:59
Yeah, yeah. I'm definitely a proponent of free speech and protecting free speech.

Shane Bugbee 12:04
But there is a there is the argument, and it's a hard one for me to understand how to argue is how do you give speech to people who want to take away speech? And that's a you know how, you know, that's a that's a rough one to navigate for me. I don't I would not platform people like that anymore. As an artist, and as a person who is a white trash, high school dropout artist. There's no way that I could do my job as an artist, which is, what do artists do we tell history, we tell the real human history, the human story, rich people write history books, but they're not. That's the history, history is held with an art. So how would I tell a white trash story without dealing with Nazis or rebel flags, or all this kind of stuff? That's what surrounds me. It's the same with any lower class group of people, a lot of really toxic shit is involved in our life, because we don't have access to education, health care and other things. So what we're going to present is going to be ugly, awful stuff. But but that's not really my fault. It's it's the society as a whole's fault. I just show what I see.

Joseph Rose 13:15
You mentioned might is right a few times some of your notoriety has come about in relation to Might is Right? How would you summarize what that book is? And what made you so interested in it at the time?

Shane Bugbee 13:28
Oh, that's a good one. Let me... There's two questions. I have to do one of the time, so if I forget one, let me know.

Joseph Rose 13:34
Sure.

Shane Bugbee 13:35
How do I see that book? Well, I see it just as an angry screed. It was, for me, it was about presenting something that wasn't accessible. So for me as... back then, how I saw it was wow, this is an opportunity to as a publisher, publish something that's radical. As I was, I was publishing obscene works from cartoonist and shit that was literally illegal in this country. So I was like, this is a hot one, I want to do this. And so I saw it as presenting a historic document or something like presenting the truth. Like, here's this is what Satanism is based off of, I have the facts. So I was going to market it to golf, that's what I threatened LaVey with, I'm gonna market this to people and tell them this is where you got your book from. And so you know, time for you to write it foreword for it or not, but I'm going to do that. And so that's what that's that's how I saw it was just like a piece of history. But when I read it, it just had a lot of ugly, brutal truths that were hard to escape, especially without formal education, especially without a formal education. It was hard for me, you know, that's 30 years ago, I definitely educate myself I'm well read, I'm just not formally educated. And so reading that it made a lot of sense because that's exactly the life that I was surrounded by was victimization, exploitation, abuse, power, you know, my mind is right. You know, that that's what I saw around me. So it was truth, you know, with that limited education and that was youthful mind, it was just truth. You know, you have to be strong to survive, you have to, you have to punch back, you have to fucking show a hard face. And coming all this way. It's a really hard life for men to live in that toxic mindset. You can never show your emotions your mind is right really rings to men, especially because of that idea. We can't be sensitive and all kinds of problems that men face or I don't want to say masculine, but I will say the men culture right now. Yeah. And so I see my as I saw my knees, right like that. And as I, as I started to move forward with things, and talking to my co conspirators, like, hey, let's let's revisit miters right, let's put out a number two. But let's talk about the idea of, of empathy of, of watching animals. Predators, exist with their food and not be so perverse. Let's talk about how it's a symbiotic relationship, let's talk about these things. Because might is right was so skewed towards one thing. And so I started to want to do something like that. And those conversations went on for decades. Oh, no, I shouldn't say decades art, my relationship with the people I had, was involved with, in publishing might is right and promoting it went on for decades. At about 2015 or 14, I started to move away from that stuff, I started to get therapy. And when I was treating my traumas, I was able to see other people's traumas for the first time. Because before that, I could only think about my problems until I you know, I was able to deal with those, you know, that anxiety and stuff that I was able to see like people colors issues, they don't like how bad they have. And if I have it this hard, if I'm that fucking bad, it will man you really got it. And so I was able to start seeing that stuff. And at that point, I really started to pull away and say we have to do something about what we created here. It's there's a groundswell happening, that I'm responsible for ultimately, the people I worked with were tools. They did what I said. And so I need to figure out something about this. And then 2016 hit I got a bunch of emails from like Trump fans and white supremacist people thanking me for putting up Midas right, and our presidents in the office and our fuck, and that's when I took it off sale. I was like, Yeah, you know, I can't even I can't even take money for this thing anymore. It was a weird moment, though. Because in my old days, you know, and that November, I pull it off sale. I'm talking about it's coming off my websites now. And these December Obama and the Pope both mentioned might is right. And I'm like, Holy fuck, like, sent me into a tailspin. Like I had a anxiety, panic attacks. Yeah, because these are the two most powerful men in the world. Speaking about something, a fucking dude that was living in a Chevette published and made very popular for a great long time, I was the only one publishing it and having a tour with black metal bands and really promoting it. And I was like, oh, man, the young I was conflicted. I'm like, do I just start taking out ads in the New York Times and LA Times and Chicago Tribune saying this book that the Pope and Obama mentioned is on sale now here are no I would have that would have been my lottery ticket like I would have been. I would be set right now. And, and probably some alt-right hero.

Joseph Rose 18:16
Yeah, if that's what you were looking to be.

Shane Bugbee 18:19
Well, but but I'm just looking to be me. I'm just me. And I go with my feelings. And as artists, you know, that's, that's what I do. I don't I don't take the name as an artist as an identity thing. It's something that people communicate to me and tell me that I am.

Joseph Rose 18:33
Around how old were you when Might is Right was republished?

Shane Bugbee 18:37
Mid 20s? I can't you know, it's so long ago. For me, and I'm in my 50s now... and I don't I don't really feel like I'm in my 50s. But sometimes, you know, memories. I'm lucky. I don't know. Yeah. But a long time ago, almost three decades ago.

Joseph Rose 18:52
I just asked because I wonder how much of your connection and interest in everything that you had toward that book, at that time is a big product of not only your environment and experiences, but the fact that you were a young man. You know, you were how much of it was just the edgy, rebellious sort of bit of a young man.

Shane Bugbee 19:13
I think when you see people like angry white males or people like myself, or just Angry Men, you know, or angry people. I'm sorry to keep making it as men but when people stormed the Capitol, let's say those people are carrying their parent's issues. I was carrying my parent... my father's rage. I wasn't even defined as a human being at that point. I was still carrying my father's rage, but I could see what he was saying as far as the working class getting stuck and he was a union member so when I was talking about might is right and shit like that. Always in my head and heart was my father as a pipe fitter, a union member picket lines in Chicago how picket lines people would have when I was a child, you'd see picket lines, union members with ball bats know beat the shit out of you. If you cross the picket line, like you're not going to get groceries. We'll find you up. And so that's how I saw this might is right challenge like the teamsters union shows might in order to get what they want, and I've seen that's a Chicago it's an urban thing, especially. And when when just look at the mission or the I think it's called the mission Grandmaster Flash and Melly Mel had a song about Might is Right. So in the urban areas back in that day, people were talking about survival. If it is click crazy. Yeah, anyway, sorry, from spinning out here.

Joseph Rose 20:27
No, not at all. Is it fair to say that all these years later, you don't necessarily feel the same connection with that material anymore?

Shane Bugbee 20:37 Well, I don't have the same connection with anything anymore. Because I just continue to change as a person, and I continue to grow. So my life right now, I don't have the same connection with anything anymore. I've hit like this older wall where I look at my old work. And I'm like, Yeah, I don't even recognize you anymore. I don't, I don't recognize you. I don't I have a totally different interpretation of it. And I can only go with what memory serves me when I did it. You know, but yeah, I do. I but I, I see the I see the honesty in a lot of this work, too. And it's not like an honesty, we need to do an act. It's an honesty, like a lot of evey stuff, a lot of people, a lot of people take the minus ride or that kind of philosophy and use it to be a dick, versus how I took it as Wow, this is a warning about what we're up against. So, you know, we take things that way. But yeah, I definitely see things differently. It's unfortunate, it's unfortunate that we are in a society where you do have to show strength, where if you are fat, you're looked at poorly, if you're sure you're looked at poorly, if you're a person of color, you have the disadvantage, it is a really awful society we have. And so you do have to pretend or be mighty or strong. You have to present this image that maybe you're not like, I don't want to be strong all the time. I just want to be me.

Joseph Rose 22:01 Yeah, you just mentioned, you know, you could be short or fat or any of these things. And I've been given a lot of thought lately to the idea of the outsider. And all of the million different reasons that someone could feel like the outsider. And I think any of those things once that once that seed is planted in your brain, you when you feel like Oh, I'm the outsider, I'm different. I'm left out or whatever it might be. Sometimes those feelings can turn dark and, and lead people into weird directions. And I think maybe something like Might is Right is just right, for people like that. Sometimes.

Shane Bugbee 22:36 Yeah, I don't know about feeling. I think the understanding that there was a definitive lack of opportunity for me is what attracted me to anger and rage, there was a legitimate and obvious disconnect between what other people were getting, and I was not getting, and my family was not receiving. And so and that was before the internet before it was so transparent class, and it's just like that. So it wasn't my my feeling was just to express myself and art. My, my attraction to being angry and wanting to, to watch this system. Topple to, you know, destroy the society around us. Was was brutal anger and revenge. And it was anger for legitimate reasons, like walk watching hard working people that pretended to dead believe that it's American dream work really hard and, and follow all these garbage rules that I heard as a child and never get anywhere, never get what they were promised, except this promise of an afterlife that if they do what they're doing, they'll get something. They're dead. And I was just like, oh my god, this is seems like just as a child, it seemed like a ridiculous idea that in it. It just seems even sadder as I get older. It's just a sad situation.

Joseph Rose 23:51
Yeah. As you were working on might is right back then. A young man named Doug approached you. Of course, he would later become to be known as Lucien Greaves of The Satanic Temple. Can you talk a bit about that period of time and how that all came together?

Shane Bugbee 24:07
Well, Dougie? Dougie, as he's called, as as I like seeing him called online. He came to me and wanted to work with me really bad. And he was very aggressive about it. And so I mentored him. He was my protege for a good decade. And he came to me based on Might is Right, really wanted to get his hands on it really wanted to do artwork for it. I've seen interviews where he, he, he lies blatantly lies about his involvement in that stuff, which I have no idea... whatever, that's weak. But yeah, he came to me gave me all these art books and said, "Look at my artwork, I can do this. I really want to do this. I could do..." you know, he pitched the whole idea of doing the artwork and chapter headings. And I was like, you know, that's a good idea. That's it. For me as a publisher, I'm like, Yeah, you know, any kind of new edition brings new sales. So, I'm all for it. And that's when we started to work together. And I just I enjoyed that when I knew Dougie though, you know, he was straight edge. I think he had his first drunk with me. He had his first drug use with me all that kind of stuff. So it's like, I just I know a different person than I think a lot of people know. You know? And, yeah, so he came to me but but, but Doug has a different set of ideas on what he wants to do with with, with Might is Right. Doug, Doug is a person... For me, I'm a libertine, I'm for people having less control of themselves and the world. And that means I'm for less control. Doug is, Doug borderlines a fascist kind of character. He's he's a person that's into control and stuff like that. So we started to philosophically break apart before we publicly broke apart.

Joseph Rose 25:52
He did do the illustrations for your version of the book, right?

Shane Bugbee 25:55
He did the illustrations, he did promotion, he went up to New Detroit and did book signings, he did whatever I told him to do. He did what I told him to do, always. And when it was like, he was a good soldier, and I'm not saying that to put him down, people will see it now. Like, oh, my goodness, people like it, because there's a cult knowledge formed. Like legitimately, The Satanic Temple is like a totally like, the Church of Scientology at this point. And it's like, you know, people defend that guy without even thinking about it. Not even thinking about the actual history that's going on here.

Joseph Rose 26:28
I have found that there is a lot of knee-jerk defense. I don't know, it feels the way I put it is a type of brand loyalty that people have related to The Satanic Temple and, and they will defend very quickly.

Shane Bugbee 26:42
Yeah, I mean, the whole thing, and I see that you're part of that group, and I don't want to put you down, but I think the whole thing like, you know, it's, it's weird because we set out to sort of make fun of people like you. And I'm not, I'm not.. not, not like you, but in general way we, I mean, it's, it's, it's wild.

Joseph Rose 26:59
Well, I can tell you, Shane, that Lucien and The Satanic Temple are no fans of mine. That's for sure.

Shane Bugbee 27:05
I see. I see you promoting them. I don't know who they... I don't know who's who, I just saw their stuff on your page. Anyone who was attracted to that group. We clowned you, we tricked you. And and I don't mean to put you down, I'm just letting you know, like, behind the scenes, like that's what happened here. And...

Joseph Rose 27:20
No, no, I understand that...

Shane Bugbee 27:22
People put down Anton LaVey. And it's all like, "Are you fucking kidding me? This is all his." It's like his and you're like gonna make fun of this guy. Who legitimately you're his his children. If you are that, if you're not just seeking it for identity, or whatever it is a lot of these people that are involved in Satanic Temple are involved. They're not seekers. I don't think they're really like religious converts. They wanted the easy route. And they took on a religion to explain their life versus taking on another book to understand themselves.

Joseph Rose 27:55
Yeah, my... I won't pull us off in too much of a tangent. But my adventures in Satanism began, I probably a lot like yours, just a rebellious kid. And in my case, I just stumbled upon the Satanic Bible. When I was a teenager, I got my hands on that. And that was about all I needed to see at that point, it felt right at home for me. And over the years, you know, I had my ins and outs with it, I poked some holes in it. And when the Satanic Temple came along into the public eye, like it did for so many, I was interested, it was the first time in a long time that a new fresh, I don't know, exciting satanic thing appeared to me in a tangible way in the world like that. And so I was excited by it. But long story short in the time between then and now, I've had, you know, quite a roller coaster ride of a relationship with the Satanic Temple and the ideals and execution of the Satanic Temple. And so like I said, they're, they're no fan of mine. But I do spend a lot of time talking about them, because they're the big game in Satanism. And you know, when you want to talk Satanism, they come up,

Shane Bugbee 29:06
I think they come up in certain circles, but it's just like this is Satanism has this long history. And we'll just talk of the LaVey years. Yeah. And there's a lot of groups that break off and have their moment. And you can see that Satanic Temple had that just like a ton of other groups, but they're all the news reports are not going back to LaVey. Again, like this is foundational foundationally from LaVey. So it's always going to come back to Anton LaVey in the Satanic Bible. So it's, they just they're the idea that we did a great service for Anton LaVey's book and people understand it is true. But the idea that we did a great disservice to a lot of poor, ignorant people is also true. You know, and that's it's sad to see people taken in by the word satan or Satanism. It's not really a it's not a group effort. It's not a club. You know, It's a really hard thing to see people... It's not, to make it into these clubs, because that's not what it is. And that right there perverts the whole idea of an individual expressing their individual and exploring life, through their individual. You know, Satanism is not about surrounding yourself with like minded people, you never learn that way. You surround yourself with people that you don't agree with, or you don't understand or a different culture. And that's how you're able to expand your mind.

Joseph Rose 30:34
Yeah. Are you opposed to or not interested in the idea of the satanic communities that exist so often? I know, typically, the Church of Satan has a more individualistic stance, and they're not very interested. Whereas The Satanic Temple, and in-groups like The Satanic Temple are more focused on community,

Shane Bugbee 30:56
Satanic Temple, and here's the thing, you didn't join the Satanic Temple, because it was a community effort, you join the Satanic Temple because it was free, had we put a cost on there, you wouldn't have joined. That's one of their tricks. The Church of Satan has a fee on their their entry, because they want to weed out idiots. They want to weed out jerks that are looking for an identity, that's the reason they have a price tag on that membership. And that's, that's the way it is, but so they they present as exclusive. And that's also a trick about, you know, to lure you. Like, "oh, we want to be in this exclusive club." But the communities, you know, you're just it's... again, a generational thing. You're changing words up like gay, you know, or queer. I mean, queer used to be just odd, is it you know, it changed the words and like gay was this one mean, and then maybe a decade ago, kids were using gay is just odd. So these words seem to change. And you're using Satanism in a way that you would usually use it as the word "goth", a goth community, because that's what you basically are, you can't be a satanic community because no one in there is going to think the same. It's just like, it's like an impossible feat that a satanic community, you can have a coffin club that meets up, there's a bunch of goths meet up, and then there will be a bunch of people that proclaim Satanism. But when you talk to them, they shouldn't be saying the same shit. So that's the funny thing about these groups, you start to become this hive-mind. And it just becomes a joke. And it was the same thing in the Church of Satan. Like they have their little secret group, secret bulletin boards online and shit. It's just a fun joke. Like, it becomes the same kind of joke. Everyone's like, that's not cool. And like, I actually think it is, well, it's not satanic. It's like, fuck off. You know, Satanism is about an individual experience. There's a general philosophy out there. And that's Anton LaVey stuff. And then we each take an interpreted ourselves, and that's our business. You know, but it's not something we're going to probably agree on all the time. You know, you're... I'm not against that stuff, either. I think it's cool, you see that it's a... it's a double edged sword. I think a lot of stuff is cool, if people are in it for the right reasons, which is seeking knowledge, you know, expanding your, you know, being enlightened expanding your, your worldview, to think about more than just your individual self. Actually, that's what this is. But the people look at it as I'm just gonna think about myself, which is incorrect. And I say that from a place of authority. When I say these things. When I get online, and I'll talk to a Satanic Temple, people that talk shit to me, like, like, the disrespect that I or other people get from seekers is amazing. It's amazing, especially considering my history and my authority to speak about Satanism. It's amazing that these people will go, we can say whatever we want, we can create whatever we want, we can define anything we want. It's like a It's basically Satanic Temple was created this, this idiot form of nihilism, where nothing matters. But words do matter. definitions do matter?

Joseph Rose 33:55
I agree, I agree for sure, there should be more focus on actually finding definitions to or sticking to definitions to some things nowadays.

Shane Bugbee 34:04
This is why I started the satanic almanac. So we could all get together on on Walpurgis and sort of talk about how Satan is in the philosophy because it's not a religion. It's a philosophy, as LaVey would say, all religions are rackets. You know, they're made to fucking scam people. Yeah. And so it's a philosophy and we should be getting together and thinking about how it applies to today, or the future. How do these concepts and Satanism apply to what we see in the future? Or what we see coming in this next couple of years? Do we see fascism coming to the United States? certainly seems that way. certainly seems that way. And so as a Satanist if we're going to be in a community or a discussion together, I would like to talk to Satan. So how do you see this? What do you see? And there's going to be people in that group that are gonna be like, Yeah, I'm all for it. Like I'm for fucking more military. I'm for police on the corners. I'm for more control. So you had this great conversation that that is going to ultimately reward us with A truth or at least some poetry to think about throughout the year. And so I see Satanism as I understand it is a philosophy that's fluid. It's much like the Satanist, you can't nail it to the wall in a individual way. But in a general definition of a way, there is a book out there and you can nail that to the wall.

Joseph Rose 35:18
Before we get off of the topic completely early on your role, I guess if you would define it that way in the formation, and early days of The Satanic Temple isn't really clear in any public way. If you can maybe walk us through how some of that went down from around the time that the Hail Satan? film was being made up through, you know, the time when your relationship with TST or Doug, and...

Shane Bugbee 35:47
This is the thing, insights are right in my fucking head. However many of these fucking people are members of a goddamn thing, an organization that legitimately put out I don't know if you fucking young people know what a documentary is. But you don't really because what you see and what you call a documentary is usually propaganda pieces from the person and the artists they're about. But documentaries hold conflict, they hold opposition, opposing views, they talk to the enemy, they talked to the school teacher that didn't like the person, they talked to everyone and get a well rounded story. So when you saw Hail Satan and I wasn't in it... like that's outrageous. That's outrageous how they try desperately in their 1999-2001 mind because they didn't have a clue about the internet. I set up the Twitter feed and begged them to use the internet. Okay, these these people had Doug and them had no clue as to what was what was going on there. Anyway, it's just outrageous to me that these people try to write me out of their history. When it's documented, like these things are all documented online with emails, all that shit. It's like, how could you trust someone like that? What are they fucking hiding? What, if I'm such a lunkhead? If I have no value, if I'm such an idiot, if I'm so crazy, I've been gaslit by these motherfuckers for fucking years now. It's like, Well, why don't you put call me out? Why doesn't Doug have a debate with me? Like I've asked him, for years. Why does he come up public? We can raise money for a charity. Do it live on stage and he can make a fool of me. But he can't. I'm the one person that can totally dominate him in this situation. And he knows that.

Joseph Rose 37:23
What was...

Shane Bugbee 37:24
Can I call him out one time?

Joseph Rose 37:25
Sure.

Shane Bugbee 37:25
Doug, Dougie, this is your another public invite to talk to me to my face. I won't be physical with you trust me, but I'm too old to snap your head. I could probably do but I'm just too old. But I think you can probably woop me in an intellectual debate. Why don't you? You're such a smart guy. Dougie.

Joseph Rose 37:42
How would you categorize your role early on there when all of that was going on? Oh,

Shane Bugbee 37:49
well, I would I would categorize myself in many ways in the in the most extreme and how people pointed out I was Doug's muse. Doug had an attraction to me that was beyond normal. Well, you know, beyond you know, regular friendship. I'm forgetting the word there. It's maniacal...whatever.

Joseph Rose 38:08
Sure.

Shane Bugbee 38:09
And so early on, when when me and Peter Gilmer went to war. I'm constantly at war young people. So it's the way it goes.

Joseph Rose 38:17
I know the feeling.

Shane Bugbee 38:18
I love it. What is life without it? Nothing. But anyway, I went to work Peter, and Doug was defending me in this realm. I wrote this big letter and it's on this I did this podcast to document some of this, called Speak of the Devil Pod.

Joseph Rose 38:32
Yeah, I definitely want to have you talk about that before we get out of here.

Shane Bugbee 38:35
But I talked about this letter from Peter and Peter, I wrote this letter to Peter and then Doug got on there and he was all angry. We're going to get revenge. We're going to do this. And that's when we started talking about you know, how can we topple the Church Satan? How can we thought Peter Gummer over and so this is where you know, our decades of relationship started to take focus in on this idea of, let's let's let's take this from Peter they're inactive. Let's do this. Let's do this. Let's take this, let's mock Peter, let's make fun of him. You know? And so that's where some of this started to grow. So my role involves like, I don't know, 10 years of discussing this going back and forth. So it's a thing that the idea went back and forth between me and Doug. Doug wanted to start a lobbyist group, which is basically what he's trying to do because there's money in it. And use Satanists as a powerful lobbyist group because people would be afraid of you know, we have 100,000 satanist if you don't do it, we say it was basically taken off of Jesse Jackson and Push. I don't know Jesse Jackson is a activist, popular activist ran for president he started a group called Push it was Rainbow Coalition. And what he did with push was he would use it to go in and talk to politicians say, Hey, man, I got this rainbow coalition of 100,000 people that are going to turn up outside your house every fucking night. You're not gonna be able to go grocery shopping, so we're gonna have to haggle the deal. You're gonna have to raise their pay by 50 cents, or we're not gonna leave you alone. And so that's where this this, this conversation can Amen. Like when I was talking, hey, we could do it like Jesse Jackson. So I present Jesse Jackson, Push, Rainbow Coalition. And this is how we could do this. But that's decades ago, you know, it's long time ago. So when when, when The Satanic Temple started to form, when Doug came to me and said, Hey, I'm starting to, you know, he's having issues at Harvard people, they're laughing at him, because he's a Satanist. And, you know, these people are upper crust. He's a kid from Detroit middle class. So he's like, I don't know what to do here. You know, we're talking about how to make it work to his advantage and, and maybe make a film out of it, use it for filmmaking, all this stuff. Well, I got involved with this Cevin guy. And he started talking to me about, you know, they want to use him to go to documentaries, and they're starting to pay him. And now this is great.

Joseph Rose 40:45
I guess just so everybody knows. Cevin is Cevin Soling, who is known as Malcolm Jerry, the other co-founder of TST.

Shane Bugbee 40:53
Right, right. So so this is going on, I don't know, I go out to Harvard a couple of times, we meet twice out at Harvard and talk about this stuff and start to discuss how we could use my involvement in Satanism, how he could leverage my authority and my, my ties to Anton LaVey. To do something, I'm like, okay, and then he comes back to this idea of, of doing this mockumentary? And I'm like, okay, and they pay me to consult them on some of this stuff. They start to pay me money, because I'm like, I'm not giving up my no way for this rich kid. You know, I don't do that. I talk to you, but I'm not Kevin's got to pay. And so it started with me consulting and stuff like that, like, you know, you their original logo was a joke. They were calling people minions. I go there's no Satanists that's going to join something that calls them a "minion", you know, I have to tell them these really basic fucking things and just advise me on stuff like that. And I was involved from the beginning of that stuff. They... you know, I started with that kind of stuff Doug one had something on his own. When I asked for money, they decided to do it on their own and failed miserably with their traffic something like, we're gonna pick up trash for Satan on the side of the road, they're gonna buy a sign they did some GoFundMe couldn't raise the money failed at it. And that's when Doug came back and said, Okay, we'll pay you the money. And so then I went to consulting them telling them what what to do and what not to do. And so the original like statue that was supposed to be in Florida, it was supposed to be some ice sculpting. My buddy Edwin Kagan from the American Atheist called... you know, was talking to me about this and said, "Please don't do it. It'll compromise one of my cases down there." So we pulled off, we pulled that away and did the pink mass or whatever. Did that and you know, it was a train wreck; working with Kevin's a train wreck. The guy's like, you know, fucking Satanism and stuff is underground shit. Like it's fringe culture. It's not for above ground, academics to culture vulch, like they do and they turn graffiti into some shit that sells sneakers. And it takes away from being dangerous art. Graffiti used to scare people away from neighborhoods. Now it's a gentrifyer, you know, it's the same thing with Satanism. It's becoming something that's, you know, gonna be acceptable and selling sneakers soon. And it... whatever that's, it's gross. It's not, you know, it's just gross. We want it to stay dangerous.

Joseph Rose 43:10
During that time, when you mentioned, like the creation of the Baphomet statue, and all these early things that were documented in that film. You were present during all of that stuff. You were still involved.

Shane Bugbee 43:22
Yeah, yeah. First, for a good chunk of the beginning of that film. Yes. I mean, there was a there was a part durring... Well, yes, I was involved in the planning of that, but when the sculpture started to get sculpted and created and all that stuff, I wasn't, that's when we started to pull away. What I'm saying, when it started to become initial sketches, and stuff like that. That's when we broke up. Becuase Doug was like, "this is a moneymaker." And I go, "this is going away from the idea of the film project," and see I was supposed to play Lucien Greaves. Doug wanted me to be the Lucien Greaves guy, because of my history of being run out of towns. And, you know, I need to edit, I needed control over editing, I needed to be able to approve the final edit or the edits of that they're going to... any footage they'll use of me, I need to approve. And Cevin wouldn't do that. So I wasn't going to risk being made a clown for a rich man.

Joseph Rose 44:11
So in that film, we see you know that they have an actor, I think it is a hired actor that they have as a sort of spokesperson at first and then and then that doesn't work out. And then, you know, Doug takes on the role of Lucien Greaves and sort of becomes that. You had just mentioned that was offered to you at one point.

Shane Bugbee 44:32
Yeah, and I don't even know... See, that's funny. Like Doug will say, "No, it wasn't," but it was I have evidence of that. It's like, but I don't even know why would lie about that. It's such a stupid lie. It's like, yeah, it wasn't I didn't take it and why would anyone want it? Like, I don't want followers. I want people you know, I want I want people that are into my artwork. And, you know, I don't want followers. That's an exhausting goddamn thing to have a bunch of idiots asking what to do. Like I'm a boss plenty. It's exhausting, so don't need that. And so I don't know why, why that would be a big deal. Like yeah, I was asked to be Lucien Greaves. And at that point, it was a joke. And they were making fun of Satanism. So I was probably asked to be a clown. Okay, just like the actor that was there. And there was no way I was going to be clowned. When Doug did that, he did it reluctantly and understood it was risking his career. When when the Rick Scott stuff became viral, they started to see numbers as a Harvard person would, they started to analyze these things and, and come back to me and say, "Hey, this can be very profitable. You know, this can be very profitable. I think we want to jump in and do this." And at that point, all of these, these fake things started to become like, all these rules, or any of these things that come up with are on the fly, like to say, like I recently, I have a satanic name, and it's a fake name. It's a pen name, but they call it a satanic name. That came up when one of the first articles, the lady's like, "Why do you have to have fake names? Why do you have that?" You know, and Doug hustled up this idea out of nowhere, like,"Oh its a satanic name, because being public as a Satanist is dangerous." It's like, Oh my god, that's embarrassing. That's nutso to me. Anyway.

Joseph Rose 46:07
Can you point to a certain incident or a moment in time where you feel like the relationship with the Satanic Temple ended?

Shane Bugbee 46:17
Well, I wish I could. It was just a, I understand what boundaries are now. I didn't at the time. But let's say it was a series of my boundaries being exploited or not respected. And it just built up to the point where that was it. I've, I've had conversations with Dougie up until I think, last year. But they're not. They're not great. They're hostile. You know, I've sent the email, we sent hostile emails back and forth. And the last one he sent back, I think, it said some shit like, "you shit on every one that anyone who tries to help you," and I laugh, and I go, "You mean, I fight back; Anyone who tries to fuck me." But because of whatever it is, that whether it's my size, my shape my education, as a poor, I believe it's probably the class of person. But when poor people decide to fight back, it's called something else, like I'm shitting on this person, but I wasn't I was fighting back for my reputation, my credit, and my, what I earned, and for some reason, that wasn't... that was, that was considered me shitting on them, which, you know, you know, fuck them. They haven't...

Joseph Rose 47:23
Yeah, fair enough. So, you know, more in recent times, I read your satanic almanac for 2021. And at the end of your interview, you have a lengthy conversation in there with Stanton LaVey, who is the grandson of Anton LaVey. Is that right?

Shane Bugbee 47:42
Yes, I'm a good friend of those entire LaVey family. So I'm friends with everyone in the LaVey family.

Joseph Rose 47:48
And it seemed like you too, laid out the beginnings of what appears to be a new satanic philosophy or some guidelines. Can you elaborate a little bit on what that is? And if it's something you both plan to pursue?

Shane Bugbee 48:04
Well, I don't know. It was. It was in conversation. As we were talking about this stuff. It was almost like in jest, it was just a conversation. But those are ideas. Those are just us talking about it very much like I think Satanism is, it's a conversation, it's an ongoing conversation. So what I set forth to say, these are the things I've already done that in that book, but it's just a suggestion, the same as LaVey stuff. And so it's also for me, you know, like putting the empathy thing in there is also like that part of it was like to try to get credit for that. I know, Doug, took that idea, and ran with it with the Satanic Temple. And there's an interview up on archive.org that Doug did with me to harvest information to build a Satanic Temple. And in that I talked about mind is right, and how it has to have as part to where empathy is added. And so this was just me and Stan talking about how we might see Satanism as today. And so it's basically that kind of conversation like the satanic almanac for this year happened on April 30. We've, we've had I have a bunch of articles coming in interview with Karla LaVey, a person who was an adult at the birthing of Satanism sought birth and helped her father birth it. So you know, I've got that and she's written some stuff and other other formidable Satanists have and people from the theosophy society have included some articles. And so that'll be out. This Halloween will will release the book. So every wall purchase will talk about things and then on the 30th you know, on Halloween will release a copy of it, and then put it up online for free. But will also release like a limited edition. You know, I think printed matters cool thing should definitely which we should try to keep making printed things.

Joseph Rose 49:47
Yeah, I definitely... I love some printed materials. I'm a print maker myself. So where would you say your focus is at these days? I mean, I know you have the podcast and you can feel free to talk about that, and you're doing the satanic almanac. What else are you're up to? And what should people know about?

Shane Bugbee 50:06
Well, I'm trying to get into my second fate and my my went by what am I my Fall 50s? Fall, going into winter of my life. So I'm trying to clean up, like a lot of the stuff cleaned up a lot of my mistakes from that by involvement with Doug. So that's I think I've pretty much done that the Witches' Sabbath I'm gonna do every year on Wall purchases a cool party, and we're gonna do more of that every year. And so now I'm just trying to do, I just want to put out artwork that's genuine to myself. And I think the problem with being an artist, a lot of times artists run into a wall where they're afraid to talk about something, they're afraid we tell truths that are painful to our so we share of ourselves until there's nothing left to share. And then when someone meets me, they only see what they, they want to see. They don't see me, they see a Satanist or whatever else they see. And so for me, I want to be able to talk about things that are hard to talk about. And Satanism and this kind of conversation has become rote, or what people expect of me, or it's become a parody or my character. And it's not me, it's just a part of me, if that makes sense. So a lot of this stuff is, when I look at it as an older man, I've done it for 30 years. I'm like, Yeah, I don't even relate to a lot of this shit anymore. And that's not to say I don't relate to Satanism. I just don't relate to you know, I just, I'm just, I have a different mind, I want to go, I want to go somewhere I haven't seen before, I want to go to South America and see the dirt there and talk to people I've never seen and just, you know, I want to see the poetry of life again versus make things that people expect of me, here's another bathroom item. Here's another devil item. Here's another gold item. It's it's become like an and it's become too popular. It's become something that is it's not for me. When as much as I love that stuff, it turns me on I love I love all that kind of satanic imagery, but I'm just not for pop culture. Like, you know, I think that stuff pop culture and popular stuff represents part of the plague of capitalism. You know, it goes beyond a monkey see monkey do. And so, yeah, no thanks.

Joseph Rose 52:23
Do you think that that stuff is effectively watering down or harming in some way what Satanism is, or can be? Or do you sort of separate that stuff? And it's not even Satanism? Like, are you of the mind that Satanism is, essentially, the teachings of LaVey are the church of Satan? And, you know, outside that it isn't really I know, that's the way that the Church of Satan membership often sort of communicates?

Shane Bugbee 52:54
Well, I'm not. But that's how it is. You're like, it's it. You know, it doesn't have it. Let's do it. Like, look at the newspaper articles about the Satanic Temple, they go back to go Yeah, the foundation is this Church of Satan, the title of the house, same movie. Oh, yeah. It's basically this is the foundation. So yeah, it's always gonna go back there. You know, that's just the way it goes. He started it. He got it. He got it. Right. He did something magical. And people could go he plagiarized he he ripped up his ad. He did it right. And, and you just can't beat it. Like he did it. And that's it's not about even being a fan of his or not. It's like just realize that the reality of it. But yeah, I think all underground culture, all counterculture when the revolution, when when like the Arab Spring happened, and revolution was in the air. 90 days later, there was Coca Cola billboards everywhere, saying drink up the revolution, Pepsi was selling soda pop cans based on revolution. So it's like, all of this dangerous stuff eventually makes it into your hands. And I mean, your hands, meaning the fucking people that are part of the mainstream collective that are all looking to join some garbage, like it makes it into your hands. And you officially think you're fucking cool. But you're not you're just a consumer as you've always been. You didn't seek anything out. It came to you. It came to you in a viral video and you're like, wow, that's something that's gonna scare him or whatever You saw whatever you identified with. It's like, that's exactly what happens. You have to take it you take graffiti takes street art. It was dangerous. It was it was it was something that was you know, like, amazing and told history, told the history of culture. And that was co opted and now it's turned into something else. You've taken a language you've was appropriation. You've appropriated a culture and made it vanilla. You've made it bland. Lame. You made it so good. Sell Coca Cola. I mean, man, that's, that's fucking harsh. And so do I see the evolution of Satanism as So, you know, like, what do I see what I see is unfortunate for you clowns that join the Satanic Temple, you people are the ones that are going to get brutally beaten. And that's by Christians and other people see this is go look at the communist war, any other any of these other revolutions. The one thing Doug and I and we all had an idea of how to leverage shit to create a revolution. And what they're doing now is pushing towards a bunch of idiots, in satanic garb, towards a bunch of idiots and Christian garb. And you're gonna see that play out in a violent way. And it's gonna be unfortunate for a lot of the idiots that have dumbed their satanic garb, without understanding the danger of being a public Satanist. Or saying that I'm a Satanist, they don't think they really understand that stuff. Or they understand it really well and don't have much to live for anymore based on being a dishwasher or fry, cook, and I've done all those jobs. I'm not above, you know, I'm a working class person, a poor person. So I understand that. That's why I say it. It's not to put anyone down. It's to say I understand brutal work, where you don't have anything anytime left to think you don't go to sleep, and get ready for work the next day. That's all I'm saying. You just don't have any need to understand what's going on. When you join something really quick, because you don't have the time to think that's what that's what religion takes advantage of.

Joseph Rose 56:24
It's powerful stuff, Shane. I really appreciate you taking the time to talk about all this with me.

Shane Bugbee 56:29
I appreciate you asking, not being afraid to ask.

Joseph Rose 56:32
Is there anywhere anybody can find you your website, anything like that?

Shane Bugbee 56:37
Well, as you fount out, you just say Hey, Shane on Twitter, I'm like, yeah, what's going on? Where's the barbecue? What's the address? Right? Or, you know, if you got a barbecue invite me to come to the barbecue. I probably won't eat anything because I'd be worried you might dose me but but you never know if you ever in Chicago will look me up. We'll have coffee. I'm pretty good. Like that. Anyone out there!

Joseph Rose 56:53
I certainly will. Yeah. I love a lot of what you've had to say. And I really appreciate your spirit about all this stuff. Our Satanism has been through different places like every individual is probably does. But I really I find a lot of what you have to say inspiring and interesting. And I hope to chat with you some more in the future.

Shane Bugbee 57:12
Yeah, and I think like, you know, like LaVey said the first 100 years are the bumpiest for a new religion or a new idea. And that's what's going on with Satanism. Today.

Joseph Rose 57:20
That's surely true. I think so.

Shane Bugbee 57:22
It's great that we keep talking about it. Yeah. Appreciate your hard work. And I hope to talk to you again.

Joseph Rose 57:27
Right on Thank you very much, Shane, take it easy. Bye. All right, guys. I guess that's about everything for today. I hope you enjoyed this chat with Shane Bugbee he is no doubt a wild motherfucker. If you've got a moment, please visit our website at hail satan. podcast.com Stay safe out there and hail satan.