Podcasts/Sacred Tension-LucienGreaves

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LucienGreaves SUMMARY KEYWORDS people, satanic temple, religion, satanism, atheists, religious, feel, book, satanic, tst, ritual, real, pandemic, community, kinds, part, claims, non theistic, mass, speak SPEAKERS Doug Misicko, Stephen Bradford Long

Stephen Bradford Long 00:28 This is sacred tension, the podcast about the discipline of asking questions. My name is Steven Bradford long, and we are here on the rock candy Podcast Network. All right. Well, this is the the Coronavirus series of the podcast, I am doing a series of more stripped down episodes not as much editing, not as labor intensive, because my brain is not able to handle that much work right now. So I still want to bring you regular shows, but it won't be at the same level of production that you're used to. I think that we all need some company right now, though. And podcasts are here to provide some comfort some company. A lot of us are stuck in our homes, a lot of us are feeling alienated or frightened and worried about the future. And so having a podcast even, even if you're on the other side of the world, or on the other side of the country, we can all come together and engage in this conversation. So I also need to thank my latest patrons who have made this episode possible. Let me pull up my Patreon real fast. All right, Vaughn, Stewart, s. And Bill, thank you so much. You're my personal lords and saviors. I really couldn't do this without you. But also in light of the current pandemic. Your responsibility is to yourself right now and to make sure that you stay afloat and to do what's best for you. And so please do not feel any pressure to maintain your patronage for for those of you who are patrons, those of you who are thinking about patrons who want to be patrons, please don't stress over it. Please take care of your for yourself first and foremost. And I will continue to produce this show for you for free my writing for you for free. And please, please don't stress and already some patrons have had to withdraw. And that is completely okay. That is to be expected. And I am grateful for all of the support that all of my patrons have given me but there there's really, we're all struggling right now. And if worse comes to worst, I have my sugar daddy who can pay my bills for me, so we're good. Take care of yourself first. Alright, well, with that said, I am incredibly pleased to welcome Lucien Greaves to the show. He is the founder of the Satanic Temple, co founder of the Satanic Temple and spokesperson of the Satanic Temple. Lucien, welcome.

Doug Misicko 03:27 Good to be on. Thank you.

Stephen Bradford Long 03:29 Yeah, so we hung out on your podcast a couple of nights ago on your Patreon and it was a lot of fun. And, you know, because our schedules are now so empty, we, we decided to do it again. So so how are you? How are you managing this, this crisis? How are you doing through all of this

Doug Misicko 03:55 kind of the same as you it sounds like trying to make more content for people on my Patreon I've made my current entries free. But we still with the encouragement that if people can subscribe that they do, because I had about a year from now planned out in advance. My first first musical performance with a band satanic planet was supposed to take place I think on the 21st of March and I think in the in the future. Now when I say March 21 2020 was supposed to be when the tour start, people will will laugh immediately and know exactly how implausible that was. But of course we can assume that at the time of putting that together. But so I've just been on lockdown since I got back from depositions in Arkansas regarding the case we have claiming really termination for their failure to allow us to privately donate a monument when they accepted the private donation. You know, a 10 commandments monument.

Stephen Bradford Long 05:02 Right. So this is sorry, go on

Doug Misicko 05:06 trial for that was supposed to take place or is supposed to take place in July as far as I still know, but I'm almost certain that that won't happen now courts have been shut down, I think for, you know, a good month now and they plan on being shut down for the immediate future, and that's going to back everything up quite a bit. So it's really hard to know exactly how this plays out for us in the projects that we're doing, so now I think in to bring our community closer together, as we have to remain isolated. And we can do that online, we have all the resources, now, this is probably the best time in all of human history to be forced into a lockdown, you know, it's still not comfortable, and a lot of people still don't have the liberty of, of locking down the way they should be able to. And that's, that's a difficult challenge to be met. But at least we do have the technology if we are locked down to do teleconferencing and all these other types of things. So I'm still doing some public appearances via teleconferencing. And in just trying to reorganize my plans, based on the notion, it'll be a, you know, maybe a couple years out before we can reasonably consider getting back into conference environments or concerts again,

Stephen Bradford Long 06:39 it really could be, you know, I was I was talking to some of my colleagues at Rock Candy podcast, and we do lots of live shows, and we have musicians as well, and we do band, you know, concerts and all that kind of stuff. And, and I was just like, you know, we just have to assume that at the very least, we can't do any live anything for the next 12 months, at the very least, it could be so much longer than that. So it's like, there's a credible pivot that we're having to go through. But could I was also just talking to a friend about this, like, could you imagine going through this pandemic in the 90s, like, even just 20 years ago, or in the early 2000s, without the level of technology that we have now, like, can you imagine how awful and nightmarish that would be?

Doug Misicko 07:30 Well, I have to, I have to, to think hard about people's different approaches to things in give people a lot of slack on just the differences of their characters as opposed to mine. Because it can be easy for me to be very dismissive of large swathes of the population or become overly disgusted with them to the point where I applaud their their infection and sickness if I get so disgruntled about their their failure to heed the warnings and still go about their their behavior, at the risk to themselves and to others. At the same time, I have to realize, as I was saying that it's much more difficult for some other people to disengage from social life to stay away from. I mean, honestly, I know, it's a lot easier for me than it is other people on a day to day basis. When I first started working my on my own schedule, on my own projects. And as with myself as my own boss, the real fear for me was that I would slip into a kind of hermit lifestyle and agoraphobia. And on a normal day, in non pandemic times, I would set a kind of schedule for myself where I would get up and make the effort to, to at least even if I were going to work on my laptop, to take my laptop somewhere out publicly, just to make myself do it just to be out amongst people just so I don't get so withdrawn from social interaction that I get used to just kind of locking myself in doors. I don't know where I'll be after this is all done, but I think the greater fear as far as I'm concerned is that I will have lost my ability to go.

Stephen Bradford Long 09:40 Well, you know, I have been a reclusive gamer boy for my entire life, you know, and so I have been practicing for this training. I've been training this for my entire life. So you mentioned something a minute ago that was really interesting, which was you know, you're you're still having into cultivate community, within the Satanic Temple right now. And and there's kind of this, this challenge that we're all going through, which is staying together, like still having a sense of community and belonging. I think that there's something about this pandemic, that is really hard for human nature, because it's like we are, we are herd creatures, we're intensely social. And so whenever there's a crisis, our immediate, like, our psychology, our deep evolution is to, is to gather, physically is to gather, but suddenly, we can't do that. Right. And so it's like, it, it feels like there's this constant subtle tearing at our evolutionary training, almost, you know what I'm saying? And so it's like, there's this challenge of how do we how do we maintain this feeling of togetherness and community? And, you know, TST has this wonderful and rich, religious community? But how do you maintain that when you can't physically meet? So what are you like, what are we doing to, to do that?

Doug Misicko 11:20 Well, early on, I was paying close attention to the models put out by epidemiologists, the projections being advanced. And I was appalled by the lack of coherent response from politicians who should have really known better than to kind of ignore these these advanced notices. Because, yeah, set up with a with a reasonable degree of mathematical certainty that, that we knew, given the rate of infection about where we'd be right now with the kind of measures we were taking, or where we'd be without taking any measures. And that's pretty much I mean, social distancing has worked and, and shutting down bars and clubs and things like that have really done, done quite a bit to reduce the rate of infection. Of course, churches still find themselves defying those orders or more, more or less exempt in other areas. But that's a, that's a whole other story. But we started putting out the message pretty early on, I think that we were going to need to not meet physically. And we're going to have to start meeting via teleconferencing and try to come up with activities that people can do remotely, which is a good project for us to begin with, because we get no end of messages from people who aren't close to any local chapters still want to engage somehow. Facebook of course, isn't isn't really a good place for any type of remote activity. I would, I would argue it's not good for any type of activity at all.

Stephen Bradford Long 13:02 It's a hellscape. Yeah, I hate it. I hate Facebook so fucking much. And the choice to end the official Satanic Temple Facebook page was the right one. But oh, yeah, the discussion group it'd be it was Yeah. Anyway, that's all that

Doug Misicko 13:25 Facebook as a company, and with

Stephen Bradford Long 13:28 start, start over one more time start start that over. You clipped out just a bit?

Doug Misicko 13:34 Oh, yeah, no, sorry. Saying, well, that's a whole whole other topic of conversation problems with Facebook as a company and problems with Facebook as a as a method of general communication to the public. But I'm finding that as this goes on, we've been doing movie nights, you know, I hadn't even heard of the platform cast. And I don't know how old it is. And I can't really speak to it. Its its adherence to privacy standards and things like that. So I'm not necessarily advocating for this platform, but it's what I've been using the past several times when it comes to broadcasting movie nights, and people are able to chat in real time, just just in text with each other. And I think, you know, part of it has to do with just the isolation, making these such such significant events. I mean, we have a lot of fun with them. I don't know that people would be so willing to engage this level and have this much fun with it if it weren't for the isolation for sure. But it is also quite, quite inspiring to see how many people pop on and have a good time and make, you know, humorous comments throughout the movie and speak you know, the tone is very, very light. Hi already, there's a lot of camaraderie and nobody's popped in yet, with some kind of dogmatic agenda to push, as you often see in social media dialogues that kind of change the tone and ruin it entirely. Everybody comes in with the feeling more, it seems, or just having a good time and enjoying that level of social interaction that they can get during this. And we're looking for other ways to you know, other other ways to do that, you know, I'm considering other types of lecture events. Other Other interact, active capabilities we might have, you know, TST TV, unfortunately, is more of a one way. Communication program right now, but through TST TV management, Greg and William, they have successfully pulled off some dance parties. Fee.

Stephen Bradford Long 16:05 Yeah. It was great. Yeah. And, yeah, and I was part of one of Greg's movie night cast things he streamed. For those who don't know, Greg is also priests Pena mu, and he has been a regular guest on this show. So go back and listen to all of our awesome conversations we have we have a ton of episodes together, but yeah, he aired the cook. The Oh, I can never remember the the cook his wife. That no, the cookie, the thief. Yes. The cookie lover? Yeah. No, it was great. So there was something in here that I actually think is really interesting. And, and that I was also thinking about as I was reading your really in your really excellent introduction, or your foreword to Shiva honeys, new book, The Devil's tome. And really, I just need to get Shiva honey on this podcast and talk to her about it, because I'm really loving, really, really loving it. But what struck me what has struck me in a lot of conversations with people about Satanism? And who are non Satanists? And what strikes me as I talk to you now, kind of about maintaining a community through the COVID 19 crisis is, there, a lot of people outside of this tend to think that we're just this outward or totally outward facing organization, that is just all about the metrics, all just about, you know, quote, unquote, trolling or activism. And that really, we're just atheists pretending to be Satanists? You know, that, that we are we are just, you know, humanists who, who are just Satanists and name only. And I think what a lot of people miss, and what I find myself explaining to people a lot is no, we see ourselves as an authentic religious movement. And I would say the vast majority of what we do is internal is the private rituals and the private community and supporting one another, and being on these online platforms together and having these movie nights together. And, and, you know, the, the destruction, rituals and all of that stuff that we do together. I think it's just lost on people.

Doug Misicko 18:39 Well, it comes from two different camps, that perception that we're just these outward facing trolls. And on the one hand, we have that predictable criticism of that from groups that want to diminish us as religiously inauthentic. And that would be, you know, the the groups were in opposition to that we find ourselves in legal combat against who are trying to gain exclusive privilege on the public grounds, who will, you know, in court often argue, interestingly enough, that we're not an authentic religion, even though or even if they've been making the case that whatever they were doing wasn't religious expression to begin with, for example, the campaign we had to put up the Baphomet monument in Arkansas to compliment and contrast the 10 commandments monument on the Capitol grounds. They put the 10 commandments monument there claiming that it was a was a secular document, talking, you know, speaking to the codification of the judiciary in the United States. And yet somehow they're trying to bring into question our religious authenticity, apparently on the assumption that you need to be a legitimate religion to have a secular message on the Capitol grounds. It makes no real sense. But that opposition, you know, likes to try to diminish us as as just some kind of publicity stunt trolls outward facing as you were saying. But what people don't realize is there's also a significant number of people who want us to be that when they first exactly kinds of atheist activists to look at what the Satanic Temple is doing. In they think that they're reading between the lines that they get it, they understand what we're really doing, you know, they think there's this real artifice that we're we're concealing our true intentions, but with a wink and a nudge they they understand where we're at, and that in reality, we've turned fuck you Christians up to volume 10, and they want to get on board with us. And then there'll be disappointed when they come in and find that we're primarily are almost entirely concerned with our affirmative values. And I say almost entirely rather than that we completely honest because it's just hard to kind of extricate sometimes our, our fight against the theocratic right from, you know, advancing our affirmative values. Because when you see these assaults upon our affirmative values coming from one party, it's easy to contextualize us as some as an entity that's just dedicated to, to opposition of that of that side. But that's not really how we see ourselves, we don't see ourselves as this kind of reactionary group that's just going to take whatever some other party is doing that we're solely focused on, and do the opposite, right, we'd be, we'd be very happy if they came to see our point of view. And we were able to reconcile that somehow, and we didn't have to fight these battles anymore. And we'd still be a satanic community, we'd still have these primitive values, and we'd still go forward with what what we're doing. So it is funny to see that we have those kinds of distinct camps where people think there's something noble in the in this kind of trolling that they believe or engaging with, and other people who try to use it to discredit us. But as time goes on, I think it's more apparent who we are, and what we're doing. And those kinds of criticisms against us. Just don't ring true, and in reference to the evidence,

Stephen Bradford Long 22:37 and I think that there's another camp, which is people from the atheist side, having some serious understanding that we see ourselves as religious and having profound cognitive dissonance over that, you know, and or being or, or just rejecting it outright. And, and getting very angry about that understanding that we do see ourselves as religious. You know, Matt Dillahunty, who I who I generally really like, I love Matt Dillahunty, you know, he released a video about Satanism A while ago, and he, in that video, he said, you know, but if you aren't theist, why do you feel any need to hold on to a religious identity? Why do you feel any need to hold it? And so I, and I asked, you know, I wrote an article with Greg, in which we kind of had this back and forth in which I asked him, Well, why do you think that there's such resistance to the idea of non theistic religion? So why do you so I'll put the same question to you. Why do you think because I've, I've honestly, in my personal life, I have been running up. I think, I've been running up against that, more than I've been running up against opposition from a lot of religious people, especially progressive religious people, you know, I think, I think that a lot of progressive, you know, kind of episcopate? You know, I came out of the Anglican Church, or out of an Anglican setting. I was, I was Evangelical, and then I was Catholic, and then I was Anglican, and then I kind of left but in a lot of pagan circles, and a lot of Episcopalian circles. There is this understanding that non theism is is present. It has a place at the table, but a lot of atheists don't seem to have that understanding. Why do you think that is?

Doug Misicko 24:42 Honestly, maybe I'm not giving it enough credit, but I haven't seen anything to correct me so far. But I just think it's a certain intellectual laziness. It's a real preference to preserve a language they're used to speaking and it's It's a, it's, it's really, it's really, I think just a lazy refusal to change that terminology in which religion is synonymous with superstition. And, you know, you can put out those book titles like religion poisons, everything is I mean, it was a good book overall, but just that notion that that all religion is this kind of like monolithic entity where, you know, the mythological names change, but the practices are all essentially the same, I just think is entirely wrong. If we contextualize religion as something, having to do with community, something that can be enriching, which I think is important to see, you can't dismiss those things. I think, if people were to think more clearly about the parts of religion that have helped them in life, that make them hold on to some forms of theistic nonsense that they know, don't don't stand up to intellectual scrutiny. If they could, if they could see that they could discard those elements while keeping keeping the good parts of religion, I think we would have much less problems and dogmatic superstition today. And when atheists insist that no, you can't have religion without superstition, you can't divorce religious community from Supernaturalists practices and that type of thing. They're really working against themselves. And they're working against themselves, in order to make things more easily distinguishable in black and white to make things clear on that level, so they can feel more confident that they have the single answer to everything, which is the problem with a lot of movements. And the problem with with so many isms is that they try to narrow things down in that way, they try to make themselves less susceptible to nuance, they try to claim the half the one solution to all problems, and they're comfortable feeling that way. They that that really, that really makes them feel a certain degree of confidence in where they're at in the world and in the resolutions that they've come to. But it's not a very responsible way to think about things. And I think, you know, I guess, just given the circumstances we're in, it's always bringing me back to the pandemic right now. But I feel like this pandemic should really demonstrate to people how we need to adapt our isms to the current state of affairs, the kind of ideas about laissez faire capitalism we have as being the, the solution to all problems, or all economic circumstances, it just doesn't, it just doesn't stand up in the time of a pandemic, you things need to be adjusted, things need to be adjusted to the reality of the situation at this time. And that can be completely provisional, it can be something, you know, when all else is equal, we can go back to the way we were, of course, it doesn't mean that suspension of all of all prior rights that we had, or whatever else is just an acknowledgement that now in this time, things are distinctly different, and we need to adjust our behavior accordingly. And if you're not willing to do that, that's, that's a real that's a real handicap. I think.

Stephen Bradford Long 28:47 You know, I'm, I'm so glad that you brought all that up, because I was going to say the exact same thing. I think that that atheists have shot themselves in the foot and have actually, and this is just, you know, my personal hot take that, that they have, you know, and I've they've done great work. They I'm really pleased, you know, I I I think that the douchebag atheist had a place especially in the 2000s. And I think that they cleared away cleared, cleared the ground for a lot of stuff to be able to take place, you know, I don't know if we would be where we are, without, you know, colossal assholes like Sam Harris, and Richard Dawkins and Hitchens. You know what I'm saying? Like I don't know if we would be where we are culturally without them at the same time. I all of the things that I disagree with them about a side. I really think that they have that they have inhibited progress by I'm insisting that religion equals supernaturalism. Because there are people like me, in the world, for whom religious identity is something that we just cannot, we cannot get away from. And, and so for years, I felt like I was kind of stuck. For years, I felt like I, I was a deeply religious person and identity, and in orientation, and, you know, I'm sure that there are lots of interesting reasons for the for why that is, and I don't really understand it. I don't know why I have this impulse. And it isn't to say that everyone needs it either. Like it it, if, if, if people are better without religion, then that's great. But I am personally not. And that's, and that's okay, too, you know, and, but because of that, I felt like I was just trapped between supernaturalism and my religious identity. And, you know, and it's like, I can't go full atheist, non religious, but also I can't go full, you know, claims of the Catholic Church or what have you, and I, and it just paralyzed me. And I really think it kept me stuck in theism for a long time. And I am actually kind of bitter about that, you know, and so that's why, when Satanism came along into my life, it was a revolution. For me, it was it was a revelation, it was life changing, because suddenly, it's like, I realized I could have both.

Doug Misicko 31:43 That's how I mean, that's exactly right. I mean, you've you've, you've said it all, it's a, it's a really important component in people's lives. And in some people I've seen, you know, I've had the benefit of being in the center of the storm. So in some ways, I'm the worst witness to the growth and evolution of the Satanic Temple. Because in other ways, I'm the only person who can really see what I see, right? But I go to, you know, visit chapters and other areas I do to give, I go to give lectures, and people come up to speak to me afterwards and talk about how they they came to this and how meaningful it is to them. And it is interesting to me to see lifelong atheists, or people who were religious, then went to atheism and felt some deficit in their lives, come to us and see that that gap is filled, in a way they never thought it would be. And it's interesting. I mean, I was talking earlier about the atheists, some of them who come to us and think that, you know, they want us to be that prank, they think it'll be, you know, that this is just atheist activism of, you know, to a to another degree, in that it'll be the same as the other kind of atheist activities they've done. And then they realize it's something else. And they, they love that, you know, they're full, full converts. And some of those people I've gotten the most intense testimonies from. Yeah, I mean, it is just, it is it is remarkable to see what different types of people come to us from which different backgrounds what brings them to us and what this means to them. And it's more diverse now, then you can really make a single composite of at this point, really, and it's, you know, there's such a large population of us now to that they're going to have to reckon with us on the pupils and other types of things. And it's kind of disappointing to me how little interest I've seen so far in academia, you know, you have some some people like religion scholar, Joe Laycock,

Stephen Bradford Long 34:08 he's great. The most interviewed guest on my show, by the way, he Yeah, he comes on all the time to hang out. Yeah, he's amazing.

Doug Misicko 34:17 Right but but he's, he took us seriously right away isn't new religious movement, and now he has a book out about us. But I think it's kind of kind of exasperating how few emails I get from religious scholars looking to track the evolution and interview people in the Satanic Temple because you can't you can't set this up in a test environment. You know what I mean? You can't simulate this you can't you can't plan something like this. You can only catch it as it's as it's taking place

Stephen Bradford Long 34:53 happening. So and I feel like so. Yeah, no, I agree with you. I feel like there are so few religious scholars or, or academics? who are who are really taking note of this. And honestly, I've, you know, I've been really surprised by the lack of pushback I've gotten from some people in the Satanic Temple. I just because I refuse to cut ties with parts of the Christian world, you know, I still interview lots of progressive Christians, I still work with them, I still work at an Episcopal Church. And that, for me is not a conflict. It's it is and what I try to explain to people who are confused by this, normally not Satanists, most agents seem to intuitively get what I'm doing. But I find myself explaining to a lot of people. I'm not anti Christian, I'm post Christian, I am anti authoritarianism. And there is plenty of that within the church. And without, you know, and, but there's also healthy forms of Christianity, that I feel like I'm able to work with more, even if I have some fundamental disagreements with them. I feel like their, their social justice work is great. I feel like their work for separation of church and state is great. I feel like their service to various communities is great. And I am willing to ally myself with those communities. You know, like it this isn't a, you know, a lot of people have come to me with the suggestion like, Oh, I know what you're doing. I understand what this whole thing is. You're just kind of the yin to Christianity's Yang. You know, you're just, you're just trying to be a counterbalance to Christianity. And I'm like, No, I have left Christianity. I've left it behind. I am not you know, I think that there I think Jesper Peterson said something about this in in Hail Satan, the documentary, but that's totally where I am. And I've, I've been really surprised at first I was not anymore. But at first, I was really surprised by just the lack of pushback against against what I was what I was writing about. And what I was talking about, of, of ecumenism, you know, continuing connect, rejecting false binaries, and continuing to have conversations with other religious groups, continuing to see myself as a practitioner of mysticism, meaning altered states of cosmic consciousness, even though I'm a non theist and seeing myself as a recreational, non theistic mystic, you know, all of that stuff. Anyway, I could go on, but I won't.

Doug Misicko 37:52 Well, I think you know, this. I mean, it brings me back to something I find interesting also, and brings me back to those kinds of atheists who would come to us want us to be a prank and feel that what the Satanic Temple really is, is, fuck you Christians turned up the volume 10 is I think what people find when they come to non theistic religion, from militant atheism is that this, at least for me, actually helps reconcile myself more to that idea of, of religion and in hopes to kind of mitigate that feeling of animosity, because absolutely, I feel like I know what they're getting. I know what they, you know, I know, to a certain degree, what, what what their religion is, or at least I feel like I know what religion can be for people for whom they don't have necessarily designs for authoritarian power, which was all I could see of it before when my viewpoint was more militantly atheistic. And now, I'm not willing to just entirely disregard the progressive factions of these belief systems, but I am willing to work as an ally with them when they understand what I believe who I am, don't ask me to do otherwise understand the importance of our mission, understand that our community finds our viewpoint on the, the mythology that they they cling to, and from a different light, different perspective. But we get a real sense of moral and ethics from it. And they can accept that, you know, and they see the problems that we're up against and some of them are willing to speak out in our favor now. And it would be it would be just self destructive of us to not Be willing to hear that to not be willing to work with those people. And I feel like when we really make some inroads in the fight against theocracy, now, we're going to make those inroads by alliances with progressive Christian groups and progressive group Jewish groups and progressive Muslim groups and other established religious organizations that are going to be more and more willing to be vocal about the affront of government co opting religion for their own gain for their own means to subjugate people taking ownership over what other people consider sacred, just for their kind of cynical use. I think that that's how this is gonna go. The only disappointing part about it all is that I think non theistic religion will only be kind of generally recognized as a respectable thing at the point where some Christian group does it and

Stephen Bradford Long 41:12 completely right about that.

Doug Misicko 41:14 And then it's deemed palatable. And it's the new thing all of a sudden,

Stephen Bradford Long 41:18 I will say, however, to that there is quite the vicious effort within Christianity to quash any form of non theistic expression. So it might actually be a long time. I think that I mean, even within the Episcopal church, I was very surprised to because the Episcopal Church is one of the mainline denominations that I think is more more open towards non theism. And their their approach is it isn't about what you believe this is what my priest said to me when my writings on Satanism started to become very popular. And I was like, hey, just so you know, I'm doing this stuff online, and you should probably know about it. But But what she told me was, it isn't about what you believe it's about coming together and practicing these rituals together. That is what makes you part of this community. And I'm like, that is very healthy. I think that is an incredibly healthy way to approach it. But even within the Episcopal Church, I have been very astonished by the viciousness, especially among young people, especially among like young LGBT people, socially progressive people against forms of non theism. There are a lot of people in Christianity who just find non theistic religions so threatening and will try to quash it. So it might actually be a while it might be a long time, before we see kind of a, a broad non theistic movement within Christianity.

Doug Misicko 43:03 Well, that's all going to come part and parcel with the fight against political efforts to install a theocratic vision to the United States, honestly, because the churches themselves have been hijacked by decades long efforts to render them conservative and to align them with the Republican parties. And, you know, these things might have sounded like conspiracy theory before, but now they are out in the open. There were actual unified efforts from Nationwide theocratic organizations, litigation groups and the rest, to really kind of install themselves in different religious denominations in different churches, and turn them to the conservative right and align the conservative right with, with, with with religion, and vice versa. This is all meticulously documented, and Catherine Stewart's new book, The Power worshipers and she references a book called steeple jacking, which talked about this effort where these kinds of national organizations, these theocratic national organizations, went to the churches, turn them to the conservative right, gave speaking points to pastors started advising them on what they can and can't say. So as to not imperil their tax exempt status, but still clearly and obviously take a political stance in, in alignment with the Republican Party. And now this has been so effective to the point that the conservative agenda and the Republican Party are inextricable from American Christianity in certain ways. So the very idea of non theistic religion I think if Somebody we're looking at affairs just from kind of a theological mindset, kind of a scriptural review some kind of concern for spiritual human welfare, that type of thing. In that kind of environment, we might be more amenable to speaking about our differences when it comes to theism versus non theism, or whatever else. But when you have these, this kind of entrenchment of political motivation, to a specific end, you know, or specific ends making abortion, these hot topic issues, other things that they, they definitely want to see enacted in society at large, that prevents them from accepting that religion can or should be something different to different people, it's no longer an issue of a whatever, you know, whatever works for you works for you. But it's an issue of Alright, if you don't agree with this, that hinders our ability to enact kind of legislation at large. Yeah, that that really dictates to people, you know, what the moral position of the government is, and what people's responsibilities are, what they can and can't do. That type of thing. So we're not, that's that's why we're not anywhere near that dialogue yet. But we might get there a lot faster being that people I think, are becoming more and more aware of how serious this battle against theocrats is. And I think, concerned Christians are going to begin to see that they need to be vocal about this, that, you know, their vision of what their religion is, is being completely subsumed by these power hungry, exploitative autocrats and that they can't stay silent now and expect to see the same world day after day and expect the future that would be most in line with our values.

Stephen Bradford Long 47:12 And, you know, not to harp on this. But what what I also find really frustrating is Dan, I think some people in the atheist community become the unwitting allies by insisting that religion doesn't involved on theism. You know,

Doug Misicko 47:32 all right. Yeah, just completely, it may be self defeating. Right.

Stephen Bradford Long 47:36 Yeah, they become the useful the useful idiots in that.

Doug Misicko 47:40 They're, they're willingly relegating themselves to second class citizen status to victim status, and they're doing it on on this principle, this principle stand, I guess, that religion is just inextricable from supernaturalism. And that no matter how you practice it, it's a destructive force and has been a destructive force through throughout history, and that the only, the only thing left for us to do is eradicate it entirely. With the kind of legal privileges and exemptions we offer to religion, that just ensures that only the opposition of the values that that they often find themselves rejecting are the only ones who are going to get those kinds of exemptions, those kinds of privileges, they're going to be treated at a at a higher level and, and people like us, you know, won't be able to get any of those benefits whatsoever. To be fair. From the very beginning, when I started doing this, most of the atheist leaders who are actually leading some of the primary organizations to advance secularism and, and advance atheism as a moral point of view, or as at least not near responsible one. They seem to, they seem to embrace us, it was a lot of the lot of the followers and membership of that organization that didn't seem like they were willing to think far beyond their use of terminology, or far enough beyond it to accept the Satanic Temple. But that's changing, you know, and that's changed fairly rapidly. Yeah. And it's going to keep changing as time goes on. And we'll never be able to compare against control reality where we never existed, just how much effect we've had on culture. But I think it's not insignificant. And I think that some people might not even realize where some of these shifts are coming from, on people's perceptions regarding religion, but I'll tell you that shift is partially coming from the Satanic Temple

Stephen Bradford Long 50:00 I agree, I agree. 100%. And, you know, and an observation that I kind of want to make is, I think a lot of people here, this is just an observation that I've had, I think a lot of people here, you and other leaders within the temple, talk about, say, the political activism, talk about this stuff about, you know, religious privilege and, and the Division of church and state and defending that line and all that stuff and assume that makes you somehow not religious, which is weird to me and what I, what I try to point out to people, you know, like someone recently said, I've gotten actually a lot of criticism from people, because of my support of the Satanic Temple. And so there are a lot of people who consider themselves real Satanists, who are like, I love your podcast, and I love your writing. But why do you align with with the Satanic Temple? Why do you support them? They aren't real Satanists, they're just political activists. And what I, what I tried to say is, well, no, no, no, their political activism comes, flows from their religious convictions, it's like, think of the Quakers, a lot of the Quakers have been at the front lines of various at various forms of social activism. That isn't because they, that's who they are, first and foremost, it is because they are Quakers it is because they are non violent it is because they have these principles of, of, of peace, and, and, you know, equality and humanity and all of that, all that great stuff. And because of that they've been involved in protest. And that is just seems really lost on people. So I think a lot of people hear you talk about this stuff, and assume that it doesn't come from a religious place that it isn't motivated by your religious values and identity, you know?

Doug Misicko 52:10 Yeah. And I try to take those criticisms seriously as coming from somebody's genuine perception of what they they see. And sometimes it's difficult for me to do that, because it also brings up the question for me, when they give those criticisms of, well, where do they think these values are coming from? But I can hardly take people seriously when they say, they think we do things just for the publicity of it. And it's like, well, obviously, we're getting publicity around something about things that are important to us. Like, obviously, we're advocating a distinctive set of values that are important to us, clearly, we have these kinds of deeply held beliefs that compel us to go this route and compel us to, to generate this type of publicity and show people these battles we're fighting, whether we're crowd fighting through crowdfunding for specific campaigns to, you know, to try to bring these battles forward or, or whatever else. So at that point, it's bizarre when people act as though they see us just trying to generate attention for attention sake, because I think it's fairly hard to, to come to that conclusion, if you pay any attention to what we're doing. And so from my, from where I'm at, like I made a decision early on, to not let people's perceptions of that kind of molded my own public facing message or behavior. I wasn't going to start proselytizing. When I'm on television, or when I'm doing an interview, I, I want it to be about a specific issue. I want the appearance for the most part. Well, when it comes to mainstream news, I insist that it's not like a personal profile, it's not going to be a dialogue like you or I are having it's going to be about something specific. It's going to be about an issue and I'm going to talk to that issue. And I don't really care with people are looking and they're trying to determine Well, are we authentically religious or what I want them to understand the issue. And if they're interested, then they can, then they can come figure out more about us. We have enough of a presence. There's enough background material now where they can, they can figure it out. They can draw their own conclusions. But I'm not going to let fear of that make me start proselytizing. I'm not going to start going into other minority communities or other communities at large and just telling people hey, I think Satanism is right for you because it might not be and we're comfortable with that. That's part of the that's part of the philosophy is accepting that this isn't isn't necessarily I write for some people and what what's good for some people isn't necessarily good for you, it but we can coexist that way we can accept that we can find a common ground and so long as we're not encroaching upon each other's rights, then we you know, then there's there's no reason that that has to bring us into conflict. And you can see me handling Tucker Carlson that way, I was

Stephen Bradford Long 55:23 just about to bring that back. Bring that Yeah, your your conversation, your interviews with Tucker Carlson are pure gold.

Doug Misicko 55:31 There's some are so crazy. At the time, some of the membership in the Satanic Temple I was seeing on social media were were upset after my first appearance on Tucker Carlson, I did two of them. But on the first one, he was trying to attack our religious authenticity. And instead of defending it, I blew it off. And I said, it didn't matter what he thought of our religious authenticity, I was making him confront the cognitive dissonance of a Fox News, libertarian defender of free speech, also, seeming to advocate for the idea that we should be shut out of what was designated a free speech zone, he didn't want to touch the actual core of that issue. He wanted to present us as a bunch of trolls who were just there to piss people off. And I was not letting him go down that path, I was just holding him to the value of a free speech zone and the value of having a viewpoint neutral government that wasn't going to come in and tell people what was appropriate religious or political expression. That infuriated him, I think, because he didn't want to, he didn't want to defend that he didn't, he didn't expect me to go that route, he expected me to try to summarize Satanism in all its complexity, and in a couple sentences or less, while he would cut me off and start yelling about things or whatever else, and I didn't play that game, I didn't take the bait. And, but that was disappointing to some people who thought that it was necessary for me to try to do that, which would have been a losing battle, like, I still have no doubt that I handled it the right way.

Stephen Bradford Long 57:14 Because that's, that's ultimately on the individual to learn that shit, right? Like, it's, it's on the person to figure out what we're about. But at that time, so to kind of articulate what you're doing, then what you were doing in those interviews basically depend depending on the context, whether we are a real quote unquote, real religion or not, doesn't fucking matter. It is a what matters is, is religious freedom and free speech zones. And so whether it's real or not, or what someone thinks of us OLT ultimately doesn't matter. The issue is those core principles of, of who do, why do we not include everyone in a free speech zone? When we say that we do?

Doug Misicko 58:14 Right? Well, you get a 10 minute interview with a screaming Fox News talking in your neck, going to be able to talk about what your religion is, if you're gonna get into that conversation, where is are you a real religion? Or are you political or whatever? I mean, if you're really gonna get down to the nitty gritty, you have to start asking those questions. Well, how do you define religion and the fact of the matter is, if it's going to be some, the self serving agenda of a Fox News talking hat or some other some other religious figurehead who's who's offended by our presence. I don't, I don't care what their definition of religion is. We're a religion to us, it's a religion. To me, it's a religion to our community, you can say we're not by your definition, we're still going to be here, we're still going to be Satanists, we're still going to be doing rituals, we're still going to have these practices we're still going to have are kind of iconography and sense of aesthetic. So whether you call it religion or not just seems like a matter of convenience on your part to whichever way you want to take the argument at the time. Because, you know, if there was ever an occasion in which the Satanic Temple was saying that we were donating to the public ground, something completely secular in meaning, and and really had was not a violation of the establishment clause, even given our our basis as a tax exempt religious organization or, or anything like that, you know, all of a sudden, these organizations that usually argue that we are to really gin will completely change their tune in say that we couldn't try to bypass issues of the Establishment Clause based on a secular donation or secular icon, geography or whatever else, because we are clearly a religious organization in then they would be willing to make that argument.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:00:19 Yes, you know that this is reminding me of a fantastic fantastic quote from Joseph lay Cox, new book Speak of the devil. And I'm I'm just going to pull it up here and read it because it is so fucking good. So this is this is what he says I'm sure you're already familiar with this. With this passage. In the book of Job, Satan appears as the accuser challenging Job's devotion to God. Satan tests just how much pain job can bear before renouncing his core beliefs. TST adopts a similar role as accuser when American communities claim to support religious pluralism, how much discomfort Can we tolerate before we abandon our professed values, the penultimate line of tsps prayer vocation reads, that which will not bend must break and that which can be destroyed by truth should never be spirit, its demise, if we cannot bear even a few black cat black clad gadflies before declaring that, quote, equality has gone too far than our claims of tolerance have broken, and the accuser has won his case. I just think that's so brilliant. I think that's so well put.

Doug Misicko 1:01:39 Yeah, no, I, I really, really appreciate Julie Cox work. And I think it's interesting to note, you know, I think when I had done the interview with him really early on, in doing this, and I really paid attention, though, when he wrote a piece about our, our black mass event at Harvard, which was, you know, it fell apart in this kind of

Stephen Bradford Long 1:02:10 was, it was a spectacular, world changing clusterfuck.

Doug Misicko 1:02:17 But he wrote a piece set about it that, you know, articulated in ways I hadn't even thought to articulate the, the meaning of the black mass to us, you know, because because sometimes you have ideas, you know, something's essential to you, or whatever you need. And I think this is something I, I strive to do for people is try to put words to the things that they're feeling, you know, to, to let people know that this kind of black mass isn't for, you know, it wasn't something meant to just be seen by the outside world to offend them and provoke a reaction in the way that, that trolls do these things, but that it was this kind of significant event for people leaving superstition, supernaturalism, and that type of thing. And he articulated this really well, in a piece he wrote about the meltdown surrounding the black mass event. And, you know, he, he's a Catholic, and he considers himself a Catholic.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:03:19 I was just gonna bring that up. Yeah, he's a Catholic. Yeah. And,

Doug Misicko 1:03:23 I mean, it just, it goes to show that, you know, our, our opposition isn't necessarily the religious and it's just all too easy to say religion means this one thing, you know, all religions poison, all of that bullshit. But we have to be willing to engage in more nuanced dialogues in that and be willing to accept that No, we never really do have one solution to all problems. There's never one religion, necessarily, that's going to be beneficial to the entire world at large. And, but the more we can get different religions to live in unity with that fact, that we're not all going to unify under one banner, that there is a diversity of thought and diversity to communities, and that we're better off that way. The better off the whole world will be. I agree.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:04:27 100% Yeah. And, you know, a point that I that I meant to make earlier and and failed to when I was talking about, you know, aligning with, with, you know, various progressive theists of various different religious stripes. That doesn't mean that there aren't substantial disagreements, right? You know, that that doesn't mean that I agree with my Catholic friends or Buddhist friends or Muslim friends or pagan friends on everything and they think that I I am in grave error error about some things as well. It's about plurality. And I think that that's important for me to verbalize sometimes. Do you have? Do you have time for me to ask you a question about the Harvard maths? I know that Yeah,

Doug Misicko 1:05:15 absolutely. Go ahead.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:05:17 Well, so there's something that has kind of come up again and again recently, and just in my life and conversations that I've been having with people, I had a I have a very close friend who is in the old Catholic Church, which is kind of a sectarian, more progressive group that broke away. And he was, he was saying, you know, I appreciate what TST is doing. I just wish they wouldn't do the black mass, though, because that's really an act of hatred against Catholicism. And I tried to, you know, I tried to explain to him Oh, well, and before I get to that, just earlier today, someone in my Discord community was was talking about how there was a petition on on some petition website from a bunch of Catholics asking Etsy to remove all of the satanic rosaries on Etsy, because they, they see it as somehow persecution against Catholicism. And of course, one of the big things about the black mass was that it was seen in Harvard was that it was seen as anti Catholic hate, or anti Catholic. bigotry or anti or, or oppressive, towards or persecution towards Catholics. What is your take on all that? Like, why? Why do you because it's so ironic to me that the most fucking powerful religion on this entire globe feels oppressed by a tiny minority, new religious movement. And and that is just so ironic to me. And Joe Laycock, in his book, made the point about the Harvard mass that none of them ever asked us what we meant by it, like no one ever takes the top, they never take the time to ask the satanists well. What do you mean by this? And if they did, maybe they would walk away with a better understanding. Instead, they just go, I don't know, just like, what's your take on that whole thing?

Doug Misicko 1:07:33 Well, it's, it's infuriating to me, honestly, I, I had a real difficult time, of course, getting people are getting writers to convey the entirety of the message I was trying to put out during the black mass thing. To be clear, the black mass was presented later on by a lot of people who wrote about it as something, of course, that we did to get attention again, we were intentionally trying to be this force divisive force of outrage. By doing this, we were trying to provoke the Catholics or whatever. And the fact of the matter is that we weren't doing that. And I was really annoyed by all the coverage that this event was getting. Because, to me, this was going to be a little academic affair, right? We were going in front of this student group. And we put out these these, this little release for the event saying that we were going to do a reenactment of a black mass, and I thought reenactment maybe that would buffer us from the people who felt that the black mass actually had this power to affect their lives in some way. And like the, the idea being that, you know, the, these were people who are going to pretend to do a black mass, whatever the difference would be, rather than actually doing a black mass. So maybe, maybe they wouldn't pay attention to it. Maybe they would think that in that way. It's it's super natural powers for nullified or whatever. But the presentation about the blackness itself that I was going to give at this student event was going to talk specifically to the black mass having that kind of power for the people who engage in it not not as this thing that was meant to offend Catholics because it would be done for the most part by people who weren't, who weren't doing this publicly at all who you know, for whom they would be doing this in private and then the, you know, the church goers would have no part wouldn't be aware, whatever, but it would just be that kind of embrace of, of the blasphemous iconography or maybe acts or whatever, in a way that would make them feel like they had broken the chains of the oppression of the super dishes background that they probably grew up with. And I was also going to speak about the history of the black mass and how this mythology of a black mass kind of evolved from these claims about witches, Sabbath, this and other types of events that that didn't take place,

Stephen Bradford Long 1:10:22 or was spotted by Christians. It was right invented

Doug Misicko 1:10:26 in a way to really create an opposition to right to demonize and to, to purge, to purge pariah outgroups. That, that, that kind of deplorable part of Christian history. And so when the, when the Catholics would say that the black mass always is and always has been some kind of hateful act against Catholics, to me, I see a complete failure to reconcile themselves to the ugly bits of their own history. And I don't necessarily feel that they have to grovel and shame over these things that the modern church may not have any involvement with. But if you're going to deny those things out, right, and claim you've been right all along, I don't see your position as having any type of moral authority. And I don't trust your powers of introspection to bring you to a morally sound position today. And the idea that we were engaging in black mass ritual behavior, simply as a way, to them making it all about them, also ignores the fact that we are not some kind of, as I said, in the foreword to Cheevers book, that passage that I think you tweeted out, in underscored, like we're, we're not some barbarian invaders from outside the gates who are coming in and CO opting some unfamiliar culture and laughing at it and pointing at it and mockery. For the most part, a lot of us grew up in this kind of culture were besieged by the superstitions and felt very oppressed by that.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:12:23 It was our culture, right? So we are not invading anything, we are taking it with us and shaping it and molding it into something new and better.

Doug Misicko 1:12:34 Right. And if you're going to raise children in this environment of authoritarian conditioning, impressing upon them that if they, they break from these certain symbolic restrictions or norms, that they're going to be tormented eternally, and then expect that some of them aren't going to come away from this. Feeling a bit damaged and embittered in feeling a sense of liberation by engaging in things like embracing the blasphemous or in a black mass. That just seems so ridiculously pigheaded and self serving to me, honestly. And it's difficult for me sometimes to engage in discussion with with that camp.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:13:24 Yeah, yeah, I totally get that completely. And so I have one last question for you to kind of close things out. Are you good on time?

Doug Misicko 1:13:37 Yeah, for sure.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:13:39 So, you know, Shiva, honey, Shiva, honeys, new book came out, of course, and she is the director of events for the Satanic Temple headquarters, I believe, and she was part of the International Council for a long time back when it was the National Council and all that.

Doug Misicko 1:13:57 But she's part of satanic planet, too. So she was gonna be awesome. Yeah, she was gonna be on tour with us. So, you know, buy her book. Yeah. You know, I really wanted her income plan also collapsed in the, in the midst of the pandemic. Yeah, for

Stephen Bradford Long 1:14:13 sure. So, and really, like I said, I'm going to be reaching out to her to have her on the show, because I very much want to talk to her. But, you know, her whole book and her whole spiel is about ritual and and incorporating satanic ritual into into one's life individually and and communally and there are some people for whom ritual won't be a an important part and that's awesome. That's great. And then there's some other people for whom it will be a very big part and that's also awesome and great. Let me know if this is too personal a question for you. But what does do you have apart from your satanic practice being leading the Satanic Temple which is a big Be part I assume of your own Satanism and a big expression of your Satanism? Do you have any satanic practices? Do you like what what do your if you're willing to talk about this publicly? What do your what is your personal Satanism? Do you have any personal rituals? What does what does your own personal Satanism look like for you?

Doug Misicko 1:15:26 Well, let me start out by talking about this more generally and about people having those kinds of personal individualized practices. My fear whenever I do whenever I answer to questions about, you know, my personal activities regarding Satanism, or whatever is that people will take this as some kind of Fiat about what is the appropriate satanic way to handle your personal practices or whatever in that and that it's

Stephen Bradford Long 1:15:57 somehow like Canon, the moment it comes from your mouth, or,

Doug Misicko 1:16:01 like, if I do it, that's the way you got to do it in that, you know, we're of different character types, different things were differently for different people. I remember, well, before the founding of TST, I was involved in researching and pushing back against transcendental meditations, efforts to install themselves in the public schools, because I just felt that this was also a violation of Church State separation, because despite what they were saying, about Transcendental Meditation, being merely a technique by which children could meditate and focus better, which are all great things. It also came with a lot of baggage about what people are supposed to believe. And the only reliable teachers for transcendental meditation techniques were supposed to be teachers who were vetted through Maharishi University or, or, or the central organization itself. So in, you know, claims about levitation, changing weather, you know, super supernatural claims related to Transcendental Meditation. But what I was also seeing when I was speaking to people who left transcendental meditation, and were embittered, or there was a population of people who felt that the technique itself was bad for them in what Transcendental Meditation does is it gives you a personal mantra. And that mantra is what you recite over and over again, ad nauseam, this, this, this line you move, whether you chant it or play it in your head, is a way to bring yourself into a trance state of meditation. And the people who had real difficulty with this, I think were reporting a type of OCD response that was that was counterproductive to them. And I don't also doubt that there are people who, for whom this practice really works, well doesn't have any of that negative impact on them, doesn't cause them to kind of dissociate or otherwise, or otherwise fall into regressive looped patterns and that type of thing. And I think that's the same for ritual behavior overall, some people might want that kind of regimented structure in their lives, they might want to go through these kinds of motions to anchor themselves and get their bearings in, in feel that there's some kind of real context in order. And so there's not, there's not a universal right way to do that. So with, with that long kind of preface, I'll say that in my daily life, I do not find myself engaging in personal private ritual behavior beyond getting up at a certain time. You know, doing things like I said before the pandemic, making sure making myself go out into the public so that I wouldn't fall into hermit lifestyle, making sure I did certain things throughout the day, even going to the gym, things like that keeping on top of who you are, where you're at, and what you need to be your, your healthiest and most productive. Those could be considered ritual behaviors. But as the more kind of like religious symbolic rituals, no, but I really do see a value in kind of provided presiding over ritual activities. My ritual activities are really more performative and I don't say performative as a way to diminish it as being something that's merely a performance. I mean, something that really helps generate a mood and a sense of unity amongst people really kind of conveying a grounding in, in, in where we're at, you know, just that kind of that kind of pageantry that seems to transcend mere mere academic convenience of words. And I'm trying to bring those kinds of aspects into our, eventually, I hope, at some point forthcoming satanic planet shows where, you know, we even have a track for on baptisms, where we're going to baptisms on the stage, but just to give people that kind of sense that something more is taking place than a mere, a mere live show of musical significance, but something that's actually interactive, and in which their, their feelings, their, their, their contextualization of it plays some kind of role in the performance itself. And I think sometimes, you know, when you're engaged in protest, you know, and you're able to, in some way, convey your agreements, or how you see the issue through some kind of ritualistic practice, rather than just holding up placards that have trade statements on them, that can be such so much more powerful, and communicative. And in that way, ritualism important to me, there again, and, you know, ritual can be so many different things to so many different people. And the way I do it isn't necessarily what's going to be most effective or most productive for everybody else.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:21:59 I love that. And, you know, I think that I think that the word practice is just so broad. And I I'm at I'm kind of at the point now, where I think that there really isn't a division. There really isn't a division between religious identity and religious practice. It's like, I am a Satanist. Therefore, I practice life, I live as a Satanist. And even if I never did another ritual in my life, I would still live clothed in the story of Lucifer clothed in the icon and the archetype of Satan. And that affects how I interact with other people. You know, I'm I live by the tenets I, I try to kind of live up to the ideal or follow in the archetype of the eternal rebel of Satan. And it's like, even if I never do another ritual for the rest of my life, that alone is practice that alone makes me a Satanist. You know.

Doug Misicko 1:23:12 Preaching to the choir.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:23:15 All right, well, it's getting late. And I need to turn in soon and and actually get some reading done. I'm currently reading law boss by Holzman's. How do you pronounce his last name by the way? I'm the wrong guy that okay, I won't ask you then. It was terrible with French. Yes, me too. Well, yeah. So I'm currently working through the dammed aka la bas by Holzman's and then I will move on to the rest of the devil's Tome and then the rest of Anatole France or revolt of angels. I'm just you know, I'm taking I'm taking the the apocalypse right now, to just knock out all of my Satan reading, like all of the satanic reading that I've been that have been.

Doug Misicko 1:24:03 I'm gonna do some readings of some of the texts for tst. TV and and to post on my Patreon, I'm gonna start filming a reading of every vote of the angels probably this weekend.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:24:18 That's awesome. I can't wait. I will definitely listen to that. All right. Well, do you have any final words? Before we sign off here? Where can if people want to read more of your stuff, or if they want to follow some of your work, where can they do that?

Doug Misicko 1:24:37 Well, I do update my feet on Twitter quite a bit, just at Lucien Greaves there and check the satanic temple.com website for other goings ons. And you also find at the my Twitter bio, a link to my Patreon page so you can check things out there. In the, as I said the current material produced during the pandemic is going to be free for the course of the pandemic and if you can subscribe and you like the material, please go ahead. But it's all of your pay for it. It's, it's available for for people who are in

Stephen Bradford Long 1:25:19 Everyone is struggling including us. So if you are able to support also support us on Patreon that's great. If not, that is okay too. Yeah patreon.com forward slash Lucien Greaves he he has amazing work also, you have like years worth of research to do at the satanic temple.com website there's so much fucking material on there so many books to read. So if you have any questions about Satanism whatsoever just go dip your toes in at the satanic temple.com website and you will be there for the rest of your days working through their library. Anyway Well this has been great I've really enjoyed this let's do this again some time if you're up for it

Doug Misicko 1:26:09 I'm up for it just let me know when yeah for sure.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:26:13 And thank you so much as always this show is written edited and produced by me Steven Bradford long and is a production of rock candy media The artwork is by Rama Krishna Das the music is by the band the jelly rocks and eleventy seven you can find their music on iTunes Spotify or wherever you listen to music and as always Hail Satan and we will see you next week don't think. Read the script People