Podcasts/Sacred Tension-SacredTension-SatanicRitualAbuse

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SacredTension-SatanicRitualAbuse SUMMARY KEYWORDS therapists, memories, women, people, satanic panic, satanic ritual abuse, therapy, patients, field, satanic temple, dissociative identity disorder, abused, mental health, experiencing, claiming, case, ideas, pastor, di d, recovered SPEAKERS Sarah Ponte Rivera, Stephen Bradford Long, Chalice Blythe

Sarah Ponte Rivera 00:00 There was no physical evidence of human, you know, limb transplants like what was being said and sodomy and murder, there was not not a shred of evidence, not one drop of blood or anything within the space that was claimed to that all this all these crimes had happened, but it was mental health professionals who were the experts and claiming that their testimony was evidence for these things to have happened.

Stephen Bradford Long 00:57 This is sacred tension, the podcast about the spiritual discipline of asking questions. My name is Steven Bradford long. We are here on the theology corner Podcast Network for more shows and blogs like this one, go to theology corner.net. So today I'm having a conversation that I have been wanting to have. Since I started this show. I'm so excited about this conversation. I have two guests, two leaders from the Satanic Temple. Now we're not actually going to be talking about the beliefs of the Satanic Temple. If that interests you. Please stay tuned for my episode with Greg Stevens, we will do a deep dive into the seven tenets of the Satanic Temple and everything that the temple believes and stands for today, we're actually going to be talking about something different in the 80s and 90s. America went through a moral panic that has come to be known as the Satanic Panic in which families and churches and preschools and all of these different communities started to believe that their children were being preyed upon by organized groups powerful, organized groups of Satanists, and more and more people started to believe that they themselves had been abused in horrific ways by Satanists. Now, this panic swept through America and the UK. And it has wrought unprecedented damage it has caused enormous damage in the lives of many families and individuals. Well, today I'm talking to leaders of gray faction gray faction is a campaign of the Satanic Temple designed specifically to combat the effects and causes of the Satanic Panic. So chalice and Sarah, thank you so much for joining me. I'm so thankful to you for sharing your time with me.

Sarah Ponte Rivera 03:04 Thanks for having us on.

Stephen Bradford Long 03:06 Before we get started, how about if you just introduce yourselves and your position within the temple, and what gray faction is all about?

Sarah Ponte Rivera 03:14 My name is Sarah Ponte Rivera. I am the director of gray faction within the Satanic Temple. Wonderful.

Chalice Blythe 03:21 My name is Chalice Blythe. I'm with the Satanic Temple and I am the National Director for the after school Satan club and I have been involved with gray faction since roughly 2014 2015.

Stephen Bradford Long 03:33 That's fabulous. And for listeners who are curious about after school Satan, there's the possibility that she leaves and I might do another episode just about that. So for now, tell us, Sarah, you're the National Director of gray faction tell us what gray faction is all about and why it's necessary. So

Sarah Ponte Rivera 03:54 great faction is a campaign within the Satanic Temple that really is geared towards empowering Satanists and allies of of the satanic community to challenge the Satanic Panic that's within our culture. And that is evolved from the 80s and 90s. The Satanic Panic is often compared to things like blood libel, McCarthyism. And so we are trying to bring about change to any kind of witch hunts that that have this satanic narrative and one of the communities that this Satanic Panic is still within is the mental health field. And so our role within the Satanic Temple is to research gather information, create actions in a way that we can move the needle for those who may be negatively impacted by the Satanic Panic within the mental health field, specifically mental health consumers. You Hmm, really, the Satanic Panic was contrived through quack psychology, a lot of people point to Mike Warnky and Bob Larson as the originators of the Satanic Panic within fundamental Christian networks, but a lot of people overlook how the mental health field really jettisoned the Satanic Panic into mainstream secular cultures. And so a lot of researchers and scholars point to Michelle remembers as the the linchpin for that turn. And so the book was co authored by a psychotherapist by the name of Lawrence pastor with his patient eventually turned wife, Michelle Smith, they were in Canada, and under Lawrence pastors care, Michelle went through discredited recovered memory therapy. And this form of therapy is really, this terminology of recovered memory therapy is really just a blanket term for therapies that are identified as drawing out memories from the subconscious mind from the catacombs of the subconscious mind. So things like guided hypnosis, guided imagery, Jung and sandtray therapy, play therapy, these forms of psychotherapy have really been debunked through memory research that says that that's not actually how memory works. And so this is something that we within the mental health field, we are we are challenging the the effects that come from these forms of therapy.

Stephen Bradford Long 06:35 Hmm, that's fascinating. And so these methods of memory recovery, like regressive hypnotic therapy are really responsible for these memories of say, like Alien abduction, for example, as well as satanic ritual abuse. Now, would you say that the because this is my understanding is that the Satanic Panic is no longer mainline. You know, it feels like it kind of went underground in the 1990s and 2000s. But it still lives on today. It still lives on in the evangelical world. I remember it growing up as a teenager in the evangelical world, where, you know, charisma magazine would have these occasional articles from ex Satanists, you know, and we'd have occasional articles about satanic ritual abuse, but it is it also is still around in the mental health field, from what I understand. So could you talk some about that?

Sarah Ponte Rivera 07:38 Absolutely. So our campaign is, is geared towards conducting research into those recovered memory therapists who would in the 80s and 90s recover these memories of satanic ritual abuse, much like how Lauren's pastor recovered that from Michelle Smith, and so many of those therapists within the Aedes began to collaborate and created an organization called the International Society for the Study of trauma and dissociation. It had a different name, where dissociation was multiple personality disorder, but they've had to rebrand for dubious reasons. And this organization just started a few years after Michelle remembers was published. So when you think about the 80s, and how there was this big moral panic that Satanists were in your in your neighborhood, and they your children might get kidnapped and sexually abused, or you might take your child to daycare and they get sexually abused, or you as an adult may not even know that you've been satanically abused and that only through therapy, you would be able to remember that abuse. We are we are working to uncover how the ISS TD has evolved today the International Society for the Study of trauma and dissociation and so it really started in a way that a bunch of male psychotherapist they collaborated and organized and then to create what's what now is the ISS TD and so that collection of therapist really have pretty significant controversies associated with them. One was even sued for malpractice by their his patient Patty Burgas. It she was treated by the founder Bennett one of the founders been at Braun and also received a $10.6 million settlement because she went through recovered memory therapy and recovered these memories of being a victim of a satanic cult. And so these memories were absolutely false. And so then this actually impacted her negatively in therapy. So she went to therapy to get help and really all she received was junk therapy. cutek techniques that ended up making her worse. And it also led her to believe that she had multiple personality disorder, which is a disorder now known as dissociative identity disorder, which is really is rooted in these in the recovered memory therapy ideologies. You can't have dissociative identity disorder without the the ideologies of repressed memory. And, and that's where we we are working to, to challenge that within the istd. And so some cases that we have uncovered are one of Jude Mira. So Jude Mira was a autistic eight year old boy, and he was murdered by his mother in 2008. And his mother said that it was a mercy killing because she believed that he was being sexually abused by a satanic organization. And so she went to a therapist by the name of Ellen lachter, who is a member of the ISS TD, and Ellen lachter owns a website that is all about satanic ritual abuse and how she treats satanic ritual abuse. So Gigi Jordan, Jude MIROS, Mother contacted Ellen laughter, and Ellen lachter reports that she consulted with Gigi Jordan. And really, there's no evidence that Ellen laughter tried to disabuse her of these ludicrous ideas. And then it wasn't long after their interaction that Gigi Jordan murdered her son. And so really, when you begin to think about how the credibility of in the position of power of a therapist, how they can guide someone to believe that they are being satanically abused, or that their child is being satanically, abused, then they're culpable. They're culpable in in any kind of crime that that could be committed in our eyes. And so we've written letters to Ellen lacquers licensing board, in a way to try to bring about some further understanding of what the current What the The situation was of where Elon lachter What we're trying to understand what role Elon lachter played within that, within that case. And so that's a recent instance of where we have worked to, to bring about some understanding of how we can challenge what's going on within the mental health field that is continuing to propagate these ideas of the satanic moral panic. And why aren't the powers that are within the mental health field, the American Psychological Association, the American Psychiatric Association, licensing boards within states? Why haven't there been any prohibitions against this, any outcry against these ideas that we know are still being propagated within the mental health field. And so the ISS TD, as I said, it's been around since the 90s, the early 1980s. And they have continued to dig their heels into this idea of the Satanic Panic. You can't have dissociative identity disorder. If you take away the Satanic Panic narrative. Yeah, within that organization, if you question, these recovered memories of satanic ritual abuse, then there needs to be some skepticism of other memories that were recovered through recovered memory therapy. And so you then you begin to break down the ideologies that this whole field is based on, and you begin to break down the research that is supposedly supporting these these ideas and only ads with the consequences of their patients getting harmed significantly. And that's where we want to work to, to end that.

Stephen Bradford Long 14:12 So basically, it this is a human rights issue. I mean, this is this is a matter of keeping people in power from abusing those who are vulnerable. So this is not an arbitrary thing. Recovered memories have real consequences in the lives of people and of individuals and families. You know, like another example is just several years ago, you know, one of these families that ran a daycare center back in the 80s they were just released in prison in like 2014 or 2015. something ridiculous. I'm sure you know about that case. I mean, just just thinking what a waste that these people these these, this wonderful old couple who ran a daycare. Were accused of SEC of satanic ritual abuse and they lost three decades of their lives.

Chalice Blythe 15:09 Yeah, I believe you're referring to the front and Dan Keller camp. That's wrong. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. Yeah. So that was a it was a married couple based out of Texas, I believe. Yeah. So they were subjected, much like the McMartin family. Back in California, they were subjected to these accusations of satanic ritual abuse for these children that were under their care. They were they were accused, and they were subject to false testimony given by see what's it called, coerced, you know, much like a lot of these daycare cases, the children were subjected to coerced confessions, you know, we're giving they were giving these testimonies to things that were happening to them that never never came out of them. Really it was it was coerced, or it was kind of suggested to them by these therapists or these counselors that were talking to them. And you know, based on this testimony alone, no other evidence a friend, Dan Keller, were found guilty of SRA. And yeah, they they spent 20 plus years in prison. And it was only after this time that they had been falsely imprisoned, that I believe it was the ER doctor who was brought in as an expert witness to look at some of the to give a physical examination of one of the children or a couple of the children and there was one particular child that had some kind of physical anomaly that he at the time suggested was proof of, you know, sexual abuse. But then years later, after having been in the medical field for as long as he did, and seeing this pop up more and more, he realized after a while, Oh, this isn't what this means at all, this particular thing I found actually is indicative of something completely different. So he ended up recounting his testimony,

Stephen Bradford Long 16:58 oh my god, that it's just so tragic. It's so it's such Anyway, go on one. One thing that

Sarah Ponte Rivera 17:05 great faction is doing in ways of research is attending conferences for these mental health professionals. So in 2014, I attended the ISS TD conference. And within the ISS, TD there is a sub interest group called the special interest group for ritual abuse and mind control, ritual abuse and mind control. So this is the mental health organization that is recognized by the APA. And they have a special interest group that is geared towards conspiracy theories. And exactly when, when I attended the ISS DD conference, there was a meeting for this for this group, and there was probably 40, maybe at tops 50 People mental health professionals within the space who were talking about their interactions with patients who've recovered memories of satanic ritual abuse, and one of those special interest group members was Dr. Randy Knobloch and his testimony, his quote, unquote expert testimony was instrumental in landing the conviction of fraying a dead color who spent so long in prison after that, and so he has ludicrous ideas of the way that the mind works. And the way that a person can repress memories, he even claimed that Dan Keller was using hand signals that were triggering children to say different things within on the podium. And so she's Yeah, and so I actually just rewatched the documentary so there are other mental health professionals who were also claiming this as well. And and this all came from an AI ssdd mental health professional. And so when you begin to look at this mass hysteria, where there is no evidence, there was no physical evidence of human you know, limb transplants, like what was being said, and sodomy and murder. There was not not a shred of evidence, not one drop of blood or anything within the space that was claimed to that all this all these crimes had happened, but it was mental health professionals like Randy Knobloch, who were the experts and claiming that their testimony was evidence for these things to have happened. And so Randy novelette is still teaching today. He is a professor at Alliant University and actually has a class on ritual abuse and so it's not any wonder that that this man's testimony ended up being you know, one of the leading guides to to Fran and Dan Keller spending over 20 years in prison and and now they've been exonerated and now they've been reimbursed with something like $3.4 million But really that you know, for for 20 plus years of your life and your your reputation, your business being destroyed this this is something that a lot more action needs to happen in a way that brings about justice for those who've been harmed by these these kinds of ideas.

Stephen Bradford Long 20:49 So, here's here's a question that I have. This whole thing kind of started off with the book, Michelle remembers. And it's it strikes me that Michelle remembers kind of plays into this power dynamic in mental health, you know, historically a mental health of the man being sane and powerful and reasonable. And then the woman being histrionic and delusional or whatever, you know, the woman being the mentally ill one does that continue to play out in the Satanic Panic and in these groups is satanic ritual abuse a quote unquote, female problem in these circles? It? How does this play into our view of feminism and equal rights and equal dignity for women?

Sarah Ponte Rivera 21:33 Absolutely, this these forms of therapy are harmful to women, mainly women are treated with these kinds of therapies and and even even Michelle remembers, it's just wrought with dangerous ideas of women. So she was a vulnerable patient who had to be saved by her therapist, her mother was the problem that led to her being sexually abused. So an inadequate mother who would lead to these, you know, these crimes by the devil being enacted on her. And that really is just a great example of how women are still being treated today. They're being told that they can't, they can't trust their memories, and that only the therapist can can lead them to knowing the truth about their past. It only leads to a codependent. It only leads to a codependent relationship where patients are having to so heavily rely on their therapist, and in some cases, even having to report to their therapist on their decisions that they're making. And there was there's a book called The Satanic Panic pop culture in the 80s. And one of the chapters was written by Kayla Janis. And she discusses how Michelle Smith story was presented and received as authentic only because men in positions of power and positions of authority actually believed her. And so had Lauren's pastor not been a powerful psychotherapist, and had men claiming that they believed her narrative, this may have not got the traction that it that it did. Also, Lawrence Pasteur was was a devout Catholic. So it's not. It's not hard to think about how his faith based ideas entered into her false memories that were retracted, or I'm sorry, into her false memories that were were recovered through through his therapy.

Chalice Blythe 23:44 I mean, yeah, even the therapy itself is, is incredibly rooted in this in this idea of trying to overpower the female. So a lot of these therapies and you can you can find these things online. You know, you so when we're talking about when we're talking about this associative Identity Disorder, you know, formerly known as multiple personality disorder, we know we could categorize it as a feminist issue simply because more often than not, this is diagnosed in women mostly. And you know, it's, to me, it's kind of the new it's the new catch all phrase for hysteria. So hysteria was this all encompassing diagnosis where, you know, women would come for all sorts of symptoms, like anxiety and depression and everything like that. And, you know, they're just like this, overall, this overall diagnosis of hysteria was was put upon them and, you know, over time, the medical field recognized hysteria as being invalid and it was just indicative of a normally functioning female with you know, other maybe you know, issues underlying but you know, it's, you know, it was subject to new findings in the field and it was rejected, but the problem with the DI add is that the same kind of symptoms. So, somebody who diagnosed so a woman diagnosed with the DI D is usually their symptoms are, you know, maybe anxiety, mood swings, depression, they may have some history of self harm and they report you know, maybe not being able to remember certain times the day, you know, they kind of lapse memory, you know, they're a lot of the times, especially if they're under the care of these particular therapists, they're slapped with this diagnosis of di D, which, despite all of the all the findings that have come out within the last 2030 years, ever since this diagnosis was put out there as as a as an actual Erza I suppose it real thing, you know, new data is coming out, you know, questioning the validity and even saying, this really isn't what you know, what these symptoms are indicative of they're still being they're still being treated, you know, they're still being diagnosed with this, they're still being treated, and the treatments themselves are incredibly infantilizing to these women, they are reverted into this childlike state. So if you see these videos, I mean, they're encouraged to act like children, they hold teddy bears, they you know, they speak as if they're, you know, two years old and any normal any person from the outside looking in and seeing this is not you know, what, what value does this have on the women and their treatment, you know, what, what good is this treatment of reverting them into their childlike state and then having this this man, which is typically the case, there are some female therapists that believe this this stuff to be true, but predominantly, it is male therapists who are pushing this on to female patients, this the value or you know, seeing these women putting, being put into these childlike states and being dependent on these, you know, male therapists for treatment, you know, these treatments are not helping them get better, it ends up making them a lot worse. So where, you know, the woman would come in for treatment for something like anxiety, depression or or anything like that. They're given this diagnosis, and then the treatment itself ends up being what causes all this trauma. And so when we talk about di, D, it I think it's agreed upon by the, by the, the rest of the medical or the rest of the, the community, the mental health community as being induced by this therapy, not these women are not coming in with dissociative identity disorder, they're coming out of these doctor's offices with this associative identity disorder. And, you know, it's, it's interesting, because you have, when we're talking about these therapists, and what Sarah was mentioning before, the fact that, you know, like Lauren's pastor was a devout Catholic, we are seeing that, you know, these these therapists hold very supernatural like, beliefs. So, you know, their idea of what a Satanist is, is so grounded into what the evangelical Catholic their ideas of what a Satanist is, and how they function and it's completely divorced from reality, but you do see that a lot. So I think it has a lot of, you know, their own personal beliefs, you know, do inform their the way in which they treat these patients and a lot of these I say religious leanings are predominantly I would say, misogynistic in that, you know, these men are in positions of power of over the women. So I think that also has a lot to do with the, you know, why, why we're presenting this as a feminist issue because it is it is predominantly these these male therapists, subjecting these women to not only the diagnosis, but these treatments that treat them as these infantile beings that without their help, and without their constant presence in their life, their their, you know, their nothing or you know, they they can't trust their own sense of reality, or they can't question what is being told to them because they don't know any better or they're under the mind control of these satanic cults. So yeah, I mean, it's it's incredibly insulting to women in the it's basically telling them they can't trust their own ability to determine you know, reality from fiction or right from wrong.

Sarah Ponte Rivera 29:14 And to go off of what Julissa is explaining. So I think that the women who are going into therapy with these counselors with these therapists they are, they're going in there for help. They are also experiencing something very real. And it's not to say that dissociative identity disorder, isn't that what the patients are experiencing, that's being identified as dissociative identity disorder, that it's, it's not a real thing. They're experiencing real feelings and real things, but it's not just malingering that we we don't we don't necessarily believe that That's just malingering. Now, there might be cases of malingering di D. And I think that there have actually been retractors of di D who said, Yeah, I was just going with what the therapist was saying, and didn't necessarily believe that that's what what they were experiencing, but they're at the mercy of the therapist and hopes to get better. And so when you look at the phenomenon of the Satanic Panic in the 80s, women were beginning to wait longer to have children or deciding not to have children, they were focusing on their careers. And they were beginning to challenge the traditional structure of gender roles. And so many scholars point to this as being a catalyst for why this Satanic Panic of daycare centers became a fad. And so the idea of trying to keep women into their traditional gender roles was a huge incentive for people, men specifically in power to encourage these ideas.

Stephen Bradford Long 31:04 Could you also define what di D is? I don't think we defined that. Yeah,

Chalice Blythe 31:11 I can I can give like a general what what di D is categorized it as far as you know, what, what's listed?

Sarah Ponte Rivera 31:18 Oh, make sure you add that in the current DSM, that it says something along the lines of women are not not women specifically, but that experiences of possession are our symptoms of having di D.

Chalice Blythe 31:34 Uh huh. You that's in there.

Stephen Bradford Long 31:37 That's fascinating. Oh, my, I didn't know that. Oh, yes. Oh, yeah.

Chalice Blythe 31:41 Okay, so I'm just, I am just going to read it off, specifically so that we don't get this incorrect, for sure. So I'll give you just kind of a general definition of what di D is. Okay, so this associative Identity Disorder yell, you know, you're here hearing us say this a lot is just a rebranding of what used to be called multiple personality disorder. And so what the criteria normally is, at least, generally speaking, is if categorized as a presence of two or more distinct personality identities each may have a unique name, personal history characteristics. So if you're familiar at all, with maybe the story of Sybil, you know, it was you know, big thing in the 80s. It was also based, it was a movie that came out where, you know, this person had all these different altars who were, yeah, different names, different ages, different characteristics. So that's, that is still considered to be a part of how people are diagnosed. So some of the I guess, symptoms that they're looking for, you have anxiety, feeling of detached from self mood swings, depressions, or maybe you're having flashbacks, you see some amnesia or a blackout, so blackouts of time of saying, Well, I really can't I really don't remember what happened yesterday, stuff like that. But what's interesting to note is that, you know, in the DSM, there's also it tells you to look for, if the patient says that they have any kind of experience of oppression or possession, that is in the DSM, which you know, possession has this, you know, religious connotation to it, meaning you have this supernatural belief that you are possessed by some kind of supernatural being. And so that is still considered criteria for a therapist to diagnose you with dissociative identity disorder, which, you know, coming from, like, you know, the scientific field, the fact that that is still in there is is kind of disturbing when you're a therapist and you're trying to help somebody you're trying to you're trying to diagnose somebody with any kind of mental health issue, that kind of categorization should not be something that's that's included.

Stephen Bradford Long 34:07 That's given credence.

Sarah Ponte Rivera 34:09 Exactly, yeah. And I think that we, we are challenging the, the idea in which di D originates, so we believe that di D is a real experience with patients who are diagnosed with this, but the mental health field that propagates the disorder of the dissociative disorders field, they believe that di D originates from childhood trauma. This is not an organic, you know, mental mental disorder that happens by biologically that this is actually created from external external origins. And so we also believe that this comes from external origins, but we challenge that this is not a disorder. Whether that comes from satanic ritual abuse or childhood trauma, but that it actually is an unnatural genetic disorder that is developed through the therapy. And so we're not discrediting the experiences that women and some men are experiencing when they go into therapy and believe that they have dissociative identity disorder, we are challenging the practices that the therapists are propagating that we know hurt women, and we know hurt children. So people within the dissociative disorders field, like to co op themselves with feminist movements. And really in the 80s, the big feminist movement was, we believe the children and we believe sexual victims of sexual assault and sexual trauma. And, and this was with good intention. Absolutely. But what these dubious practices were leading to was women who to recall these, these false or pseudo memories of sexual sexual assault, and, and then also leading them to be so unhealthy that they couldn't, that they couldn't function. And so it really was, was a backlash of the feminist movement there were, you know, in the 80s. And even, you know, even still today, anyone who, who reports being raped or sexually abused, there's a lot of skepticism behind that. And there are a lot more people who are being sexually abused than there are those who are making false accusations. However, however, this field ends up discrediting the masses of of sexual assault victims, because now there's evidence that people have falsely accused people through this form of therapy, and it just ends up hurting those who are, who are who are real victims. And it also ends up just using them as as human shields for the the mental health professionals who are claiming that this is that they believe the women now, women who have retracted their their belief that they experienced satanic ritual abuse, or that they retracted that they were they had dissociative identity disorder, the dissociative identity disorder field, the dissociative disorders field, doesn't believe them. So this field is based on we believe the women, they absolutely believe that that those women are lying that and they can't trust what they're saying, and that they still believe that they have dissociative identity disorder. And one case of that is, is out of Roma Hart. So Roma Hart was a victim of a therapist in Canada by the name of Colin Ross, Colin Ross was a president of the ISS TD, and she ended up suing him. And unfortunately, it didn't end up being a successful case because her lawyer had some like filing issue and it violated the statute of limitation or something along those lines. And so her whole case was unable to be to be to be successful. However, there are a lot of a lot of people professionals who, who claimed that that's the worst case of mental health malpractice they've ever seen. Colin Ross heavily drugged Roma heart to a point that she would have seizures. Oh, my God, the treatment was that they would throw her into a seclusion room that actually had a flickering light, she reports and so would induce these these seizures, and that it was claimed by the treatment team that she was just experiencing an altered personality that was possessed. And so her her health declined dramatically. And she went in for stress. She was a working single mother who had broken her foot and her workman's comp had ran out. And someone had recommended, well, why don't you go to therapy for stress because you're you're obviously stressed that will extend your workman's comp. So she did that. And the therapist said, Well, on the first day that she went into therapy said, Yep, you're a clear case of multiple personality disorder now dissociative identity disorder, and and then it went, you know, went down from there she was in in Collin Ross's care for for years.

Stephen Bradford Long 39:30 Oh my god.

Sarah Ponte Rivera 39:31 She reports that while she was under his care, that she alleges that 12 women committed suicide while she was in treatment with Colin Ross that were under Colin Ross's care and she also alleges that he he would send women home who were who he knew were suicidal and would send them home with enough medication to overdose and that if they survived their overdose their attempted suicide they would COME BACK TO into his care. And she alleges one of the first things that he would say was, did you see the white light. And so this is a this is a therapist who ended up having to move because of the stain within his community. He was essentially forced out of the hospital and ended up moving to Texas. And then only a couple years later, almost an identical case happened to a woman by the name of Martha tayo, she ended up suing and settling out of court for a very, you know, significant amount of money. And then he ended up moving to another treatment facility. And this is this is very common for those forms, for therapists who have unethical practices and who get caught with the kinds of treatment that they have. And then they can just up and move into another community and continue the same exact practices. And so this is how the licensing boards are failing women that they are subjecting them to potential crimes and there's nothing to protect women or or any other patient mental health consumer from these these kinds of practices. I want to go back to what Julius was saying that a lot of the the therapists who are propagating these ideas of satanic ritual abuse and dissociative identity disorder or the dissociative disorders in general, like a lot of them are men but the the mental health field in general, it's, it's beginning to change, more women are going to school for mental health degrees. And we're women are our holding places of power within the mental health field. And But historically, we know that women have encouraged oppression of other women in other kinds of situations and in work and education. There, there were always women holding the flag of keeping women in their place. But this is the same idea within mental health field within the mental health field. There are women within the istd who are practicing the same dangerous practices with other women, leading women to believe that they can't trust their own memories and leading women to be infantilized to create these child altars within their personality. And Chile's had mentioned documentaries that were happening in that happened, you know, in the 80s, and 90s. And it was, it was really big in the in that Satanic Panic era, for therapists who allow documentary crews to come in and record these women who were switching into different altars and having what they claim is AB reactions, and they would have to restrain them and that they were experiencing, you know, a memory from their past trauma. And it would be, you know, really, really dramatic documentary or, you know, 60 minutes expose a but now, hindsight 2020 If you watch those, you can see that the women are talking about how, you know, if they're feeling stressed, or they don't know what to do, they automatically their coping skill is to call their therapist and ask for advice on how to handle a certain situation, or they were encouraged to to have stuffed animals. And so you see these shots of women holding teddy bears and lying in the fetal position, and the therapists stroking their hair as if they're a child. And so, one, the infantilization of women is is absolutely atrocious, but also the fact that the ethics come into this as well. When you start to have boundary issues with your with your patients. And that's not uncommon specifically within the ISS, TD and oftentimes therapists will commit some unethical action or have an unethical behavior and it kind of gets swept under the rug and really that happened with with Michelle Smith and Lourdes pastor who, who co authored, Michelle remembers Lauren's pastor, you know, he can be seen in shots of like, having Michelle Smith laying on his chest while she's recovering member memories through therapy and also, he ended up marrying her they they went on a tour. Well, they went on a tour like throughout the country throughout I think Canada and the US and did this big tour of their book, Michelle remembers and and then in that time they both end up divorcing their spouses and, and and becoming married. And so these unethical practices on pastures part, they were never highlighted by the proponents of recovery from memory therapies, despite the fact that they are the champions of or this you know, so called champions of protecting women and their patients. But because Lawrence Pasteur ended up claiming that he was an expert in ritual abuse, this ended up you know, kind of overcoming the fact that he had committed, you know, really some unethical ethical practices, really the quacks who are propagating these theories, they just overlook the inappropriate behavior and one instance of this is a recent instance of this is Bessel Vander Kolk. He really is is a, the superstar of of trauma. And he has been he's the

Stephen Bradford Long 45:51 author, he's the author of the Body Keeps the Score, isn't he? Yes. Okay. Yeah. Which is a hugely popular book.

Sarah Ponte Rivera 45:58 So So Bessel Vander Kolk. He has been, he he did write the Body Keeps the Score, which I read, and you know, like any discussion on on sexual assault, yeah, anyone who encourages protecting people of sexual assault, you know, that's great. However, he also believes that the mind has the ability to repress memories into the catacombs of the deep, you know, the deep brain or whatever. And he even has like a whole section on on how people repressed memories. His research and testimony was also used heavily by the ISS TD and he's he's been a collaborator with the ISS TD for for many, many years. And he was an expert witness for cases of women accusing either their parents or other family members or community members of sexual abuse that they had never remembered until they went until into therapy to have those memories recovered. And so Bessel Vander Kolk was the expert in those cases. However, Bessel Vander Kolk, many years ago was brought into question his research was brought into question because one of his research assistants Donya, Vardy had falsified data, and he ended up using that data in some of these cases. And then also so data that was that was to justify recovered memories. And so he as, as this leader within the trauma field, he ended up you know, using knowing that he had falsified data, and and using that in hopes to convict people of sexual sexual abuse crimes that there was no evidence of the only the only evidence was the recovered memories. And so recently, really recently, a couple of weeks ago, Bessel Vander Kolk, was fired for denigrating and bullying women within his field of study. And so I think that that's just a really great example of how the so called champions of protecting women and protecting abuse victims, their ethics may not always align with what they're they're tasked to be doing. And he's gone on this big campaign of trying to get sympathy to how this is a big conspiracy against him. And that he the only reason he was fired is because they want to, they want to he had a grant for $2.5 billion for research, which is a huge grant, or I'm sorry, I think it was maybe a $5 million grant two point half of it was supposedly for his research, but even then, you know, when you when you falsify data, well, when you've when you've used falsified data, how, how credible can you be now and so knowing that the memory keeps, that the Body Keeps the Score, his book is so widely supported and read and that people just really love this book. When you get down to it? How can you trust someone who has knowingly use falsified data, and now that we know has bullied and denigrated women within the work within the work field? So someone who, whose research is supposed to bring support to the dissociative disorders field, he ends up being just a big asshole and isn't doing what he shouldn't be doing?

Stephen Bradford Long 49:24 It's fascinating. And you know what, what this whole conversation reminds me of is like that pop culture, iconic archetypal image of Linda Blair, having the devil cast out of her by this old white man, and that kind of archetypal infantilization of the feminine under the religious and spiritual guidance and authority of the of the man and the and how there are these inherent abuses in that mismatch of power. How there are these in trends Deke, vulnerabilities and abuses that will inevitably get exploited in that power dynamic. And you know, this conversation, just bringing up so much memories for me. Because I grew up in kind of the charismatic evangelical world. I feel like, you know, like, the first time this got on my radar was when a really, really good friend of mine in the church was just going through a really hard time her husband was cheating on her. She was experiencing some self injury she was she was just going she had, you know, three, three kids that she was trying to take care of when trying to deal with her husband, like it was just a nightmare for her. Well, she goes to a pastor. So this wasn't in a therapeutic setting. But she but it was similar. I mean, she goes to this pastor for what's called prayer ministry, and this pastor basically told her, You have multiple personalities, you were abused, you were sexually abused, she had no memory of the sexual abuse. And, you know, he told her, you have these different persons within you, because you were so wounded. And I remember this just damaging her so much. And I remember this was like, when I was 20, or 21, like I was, I was really young at this point. But I remember talking to her about this. And I was like, so wait, what you have person, you have different personalities. And she was like, Yeah, you know, like, I have these different voices in my head that say different things. And I was like, that just sounds like being human. That just sounds like, you know, like, I have these different voices in my head, one voice will say, you know, you should, you should not do your homework right now. And you should go home to you know, play Xbox, or whatever, like, and that was a revelation for her. Her life, her life was shitty, because her husband was cheating on her. And then she had all of the responsibilities of caring for her three children. And then she goes to this pastor who basically says, instead of addressing the immediate, inter relational problems, that her husband was cheating on her, and a lot of it was on his back, it was his fault. He basically said, well, actually, you're going through all this shit, because you were abused as a child. And now you have multiple personalities. And it was, in a way, the shifting of blame and putting the blame back on her. And I remember just as like a 20 year old, thinking, I don't know what the fuck this is, but fuck this. This is, this is evil. And I've seen this play out in so many ways. I've also seen it play out in the LGBT community, you know, with LGBT people, where LGBT people are pathologized. And women are pathologized. And these false, these these false personalities, and these false memories are created because of these experiences. And I just think it is disgusting and evil and abusive. And I'm so very grateful for the work you do.

Sarah Ponte Rivera 53:09 Yeah, you know, that you bring up LGBT communities. So the APA really, really took a stand. A late stand very late stand, but it appreciated stand against the dangerous practices within the mental health field that were harming the LGBT community and claiming that their lives were entrenched with disorder and that that's why they weren't living the traditional gender roles, or the Trojan the you know, quote unquote, traditional sexual role, sexuality roles. And so the APA is taking the stand against those harmful forms of therapy. But really, when you when you look deeper into the dissociative disorders field, and when you look into therapists who once were practicing conversion therapy, now, a lot of them are diagnosing with dissociative disorders. And it's easy for them to co opt someone's experience, you know, experiences with this disorder or CO opt you know, who they are, and claim that that's not who they are, that it all came from, you know, from trauma as a child and that you you aren't actually a lesbian because you you know, lesbians are created by being sexually abused, you know, these, these really, really dangerous ideas. And that was that was a huge campaign in the 80s and that you became gay by being sexually abused. And just just to think that there were feminists who were championing championing organizations like the ISS TD and add on the same you know, At the same podium at their conferences, there was someone else who was saying, Well, you know, gay or transgender individuals, they're actually experiencing dissociative identity disorder. And it's just, it's just crazy and even so going on a on another down another road back to your to the story of the woman that you were explaining, went to a pastor and, and was led to believe that she had alter personalities that is not uncommon within the within the faith based organizations who are who do counseling and treatment when you were talking, it reminded me of Mercy ministries, which actually had to rebrand after a lot of like dubious practices were uncovered within their within their facilities, they had to rebrand to Mercy multiplied, and women were led to believe that they were being possessed by demons, and that they had multiple personality disorder. And a lot of their practices are for girls with eating disorders. And so that's a current case. I mean, there was a piece written I believe, in 2016, in Slate, about the Mersey girls who went into this treatment facility. And so the same practices are being treated now they're beginning to be dispersed into other other mental health, or other other realms, like a faith based treatment facility or like social work, because there there's been a lot of a lot of criticism towards the dissociative disorders field and a lot of criticism towards them, because they have had so many victims, such a laundry list of victims, whether it's their patients, or the patient, or the people that their patients falsely accused. And so they, they themselves have had to rebrand. I mean, the ISS TD, they've had to change their name, three times over repressed memories, this idea of repressed memories, the the terminology isn't used anymore. Now it's dissociated memories. And what was once multiple personality disorder is now dissociative identity disorder. And so that's a very, very common place for organization for the organization, the istd, to help rebrand this, and the istd has held such a heavy hand in creating the Diagnostic Statistical manuals, the DSM definition of dissociative identity disorder and of the dissociative disorders field, or I'm sorry, within the dissociative disorders section of the DSM. And so when you have people like Colin Ross and and his colleagues who one don't question, the practices that he is executed, that we have evidence of him harming patients, and there are many others like him. One therapist is Dr. Paul Dell, he laid on his on his restrained patient at it as a way to quote unquote, help draw out repressed memories through his therapy. And he, he was only reprimanded, which is just unbelievable to me that he was able to restrain a patient and then and then lay on them. So of course, you know, unethical practices. And then the istd, that it's all of those unethical practices are ignored. I mean, Colin Ross presents at the istd conference every single year, he also presents at a conference called survivorship, which is all about satanic ritual abuse victims. And that's, you know, his annual annual visiting, but these are supposedly people who are, these conferences are supposedly people who are supposed to be protecting their patients from abuse and that and they're continuing to commit it.

Stephen Bradford Long 58:55 It's fascinating and criminal, and it's absolutely criminal. Well, unfortunately, we need to wrap up, I need to head off to work. But I have so enjoyed this conversation. I've really, really learned a lot thank you so much for coming on. The work you do is fantastic for listeners who want to learn more about gray faction and the Satanic Temple and what you do, where can they find out about that

Sarah Ponte Rivera 59:22 they can go to gray faction.org G Rey, f a c t i o n.org. Or they can go to the satanic temple.com

Chalice Blythe 59:34 We do talk to a lot of retractors we do talk to a lot of people who have said, you know, this is what's happened to me or these are, you know, these are the things that I've experienced or this is what I know is happened to somebody I love or or whatever. You know, we want to we want to encourage people who hear about this kind of thing, you know, if they if they hear what we're talking about, they read the things that we're doing and And, you know, they want their voices to be heard, whether that's anonymous, or they want their name out there, whatever the case may be, you know, we want to encourage them to reach out and say, This is my story. You know, this is the doctor that did this, because a lot of the times, you know, we know about the people that we know about, but there's so many of them out there, because places like the ISD have such a far reach. You know, they're, they're teaching people these things all over the country. And even internationally, you know, we we want these people who are inflicting this quack science onto their patients, you know, we want them to be held accountable. So if you're also somebody who's experienced these things, or know somebody who's experienced these things, please reach out, you know, we want to know that there are these other people out there, or we, you know, we want to help you feel encouraged to share your experience. So this doesn't happen to other people.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:00:53 Awesome. And where can people do that? Where can people reach out to you.

Chalice Blythe 1:00:56 So if you go on to Grace action.org, there is a contact section where you can just send an email, but we also have a Facebook page. We're also on Twitter. So there's a lot of different places where people can send private messages. But I think the email format, if you go to a great faction.org under Contact, you can send an email and it goes to a very confidential inbox where very limited people can read it and you know, we address things in a very confidential manner. So

Stephen Bradford Long 1:01:25 while you're doing fantastic work, and all my listeners, if you have enjoyed this or if you are interested in their work, please go check them out. They're doing important work, especially for the oppressed for those who have been maligned for LGBT people for women. If you have any bit of care for these minorities at all, please go and check out their work and support it go buy some awesome merch from the Satanic Temple, or donate to them. You can go sport, you know, satanic mugs, and freak all your friends out like what I do. That's our show for this week. If you enjoy this show, if you find yourself listening every week and looking forward to it, please do me a favor. Just go onto iTunes or wherever you listen and write a five star review that will help me so much. And if you want more shows like this one, please go to theology corner.net theology corner is a collective of bloggers and podcasters, all exploring various aspects of Christian theology and life in the modern world. We have awesome podcasts like Theo Sophia, which explores feminism and theology and every week talks to a different female theologian or pastor or we have podcasts like the deconstructionists who are exploring how to navigate Christian tradition in the face of science and technology in the modern world and deconstructing Christian faith to something that is more reasonable and more scientific. We also have a show called mind shift by an ex pastor working through the post evangelical landscape or if you want to show about the Desert Fathers from an Eastern Orthodox perspective, check out the Patristics podcast. We have all sorts of stuff there, definitely go check them out at theology corner.net. Well, I also need to thank my team, Justin Bryant, and Carson green for helping me with the technical side of the show and for keeping me sane. The music is by the jelly rocks. The art design is by Justin Bryant. I will see you next week.