Podcasts/Sacred Tension-Satanic Abortion Ritual MASTERED77vfd
Satanic_Abortion_Ritual_MASTERED77vfd SUMMARY KEYWORDS people, abortion, ritual, satanic temple, tst, rock candy, religious ritual, religious, part, satanic, important, tsp, satanists, waiting periods, quakers, feel, clinic, patient, religion, person SPEAKERS "Jane Essex", Stephen Bradford Long
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Stephen Bradford Long 01:02 This is sacred tension, the podcast about the discipline of asking questions. My name is Steven Bradford long and we are here on the rock candy Podcast Network. For more shows like this one, go to rock candy recordings.com. All right. Well, before we get started, as always, just a few housekeeping points at the very top. First I do have a discord community. You know a lot of us are really lonely right now a lot of us are struggling with isolation due to COVID maybe listening to podcast is just not cutting it for you right now. Maybe you need to actually talk or text with someone who is a real human being on the other side of the screen. And if you're in that position, and if you are into my work if you enjoy sacred tension, you are more than welcome to join my Discord community. It is full of Satanists, progressive Christians, pagans, atheists, all kinds of people. And it's a party. We have fun conversations all day long. We share cat pictures, we talk about the latest news in the Satanic Temple, we share artwork, it's a really fun place. And so if that interests you, please check out the show notes. There will be a link in the description point the second we are still growing the rock candy Podcast Network. Right now we have some amazing shows onboard we have Bible bash common creatives bubble and squeak, eleventy life, and more on the way and if you like what we're doing, if you feel like your show, or a show that you want to start with fit in with the general vibe and aesthetic and goals of rock candy recordings, which is to create a weirder and more compassionate world, then please send me an email and I would love to hear your pitch. And maybe we can help you produce it. All right. And finally, I have to thank my patrons. So I'm relying on my patrons now more than ever, I have taken a considerable pay cut. I'm no longer teaching yoga, because there is a god damn plague. And all my students are old. I mean that that really doesn't matter. I can't teach in general because it isn't just old people who get this virus, it's everyone. So I am no longer teaching yoga. That was a good portion of my income. I have cut hours as an essential worker to reduce my exposure to the public. So I have taken a pay cut there as well. So I am now relying on my patrons more than ever, I also understand that many people are probably in the same position as I am, you know, we're struggling financially. And I need you first and foremost to take care of yourself and your family. Do what you need to do to stay stable. All right. But if you do have some margin if you are able to provide or or to give to artists you love, especially the small independent creators who really depend on your donations, then please consider supporting my email@example.com forward slash Steven Bradford long there will be a link in the description this week. I have to thank my latest patrons Richard J. Halina as well and Make Love Not money. You are my personal lords and saviors this week. And I love you so much. Every little bit means so much and it is ensuring the long life of this show. All right. Well, with all of that out of the way I am delighted to talk to Jane ethics from the Satanic Temple about the controversial decision to release a satanic abortion ritual. So if you haven't heard the news yet, it made big news last week. I mean, within our you know, little world maybe by the time this show comes out, it'll make it will have made broader news but it's still pretty big news for us Satanists and for those who are watching the Satanic Temple? So Jane, Hello, how are you?
"Jane Essex" 05:04 Good, how are you?
Stephen Bradford Long 05:05 I'm great. So tell us some about who you are and what you do.
"Jane Essex" 05:12 Sure. My name is Jane Ethics, and I'm the religious reproductive rights spokesperson for the Satanic Temple. I have been involved with tsp for a couple of years now, I grew up in New England's gonna be kind of vague with details here. But I grew up in an Irish Catholic family, I found Satanism. A few years ago, after some, some pretty, pretty important life events happened. And I found that, you know, Satanism really reflected my values, and I especially, was fond of their take on reproductive rights. And, you know, having come from an Irish Catholic background, you know, there's just a little bit of guilt sprinkled into everything that you do. And I thought that the tenants of the Satanic Temple really spoke to me, especially the third, which is one's body is inviolable, subject to one's own rule of bone. So my, you know, sort of upbringing was very, very liberal, but still, there was that, that little bit of guilt that, you know, kind of followed me throughout my life. So when I joined CSC officially, I really felt like I was coming home to something that that made sense. And just through through the years, my involvement with TST had grown. So when executive ministry was looking for a spokesperson for this, I thought, you know, wow, this is this is perfect. So, you know, I jumped right in, and, you know, here we are, now, the, the announcement was made. And, you know, people seem to really like it, there's been a lot of excellent feedback. And, you know, having, you know, the the background in TSP, I feel like, you know, there's, there's definitely a lot more to this than people than people have seen thus far. And hopefully, I can sort of, you know, break into some of those, you know, more subtle nuances to this. Because there's a lot there.
Stephen Bradford Long 07:14 There's absolutely, yeah, there really is. And it's also so the, so TST released the abortion ritual, and I have been on the internet all morning. You know, discussing this with people, I would say most people are our pro satanic abortion ritual, and then there are some who have some misgivings. Maybe we can get into some of those misgivings later in the show. But go, what is the religious abortion ritual?
"Jane Essex" 07:51 So the ritual itself is, well, first of all, you get into a little bit of a history of it, the ritual was written by a mother, it was originally a much more comprehensive ritual with, you know, with props, and additional, you know, additional things implement, you know, sayings, reflections, things like that. So it was, you know, sort of, I don't want to say cut down, but we took the most important parts of it. And, you know, we had a lot of people working on it. A lot of women, a lot of non binary people, a lot of trans people know, everyone kind of came together to make this ritual, really effective and to, to make it meaningful. And, you know, it's the sort of thing where we knew that this was going to be controversial, we knew that a lot of people are going to have opinions about it, but our bottom line for this was to make it for the people that, you know, they may be uncertain, or they may be anxious. So this, the ritual is for those people that need the abortion, and, you know, they, they want to sort of stress that this is to make someone more confident to to make them feel better to give them more agency to make it so that any sort of guilt and any sort of, you know, anxious tension that might be going into it. The ritual is designed for those people, it's for the people that need it the most. Yeah, so it came about that way. And it, you know, it comes about because we have our religious beliefs of bodily autonomy. And we have, you know, our fifth Tenet, which guides us as far as using the best available science. So, you know, like I said in the in the, in the press release, you know, the These are these are things, the termination ritual itself, it includes the abortion. So you have, you know, the patient is reciting the first side, the third and the fifth pattern, they have the abortion, and then they do the affirmation. So all three of those parts are what makes the ritual and it's not, you know, the the person having the abortion, they can certainly, if they want to do something before they want to do something after that's fine, they can sort of structure it as they want to, they can make it that much more meaningful by personalizing it, but the intents of the of the tenants with the abortion plus the affirmation, that's, that's the ritual. That's what makes it meaningful.
Stephen Bradford Long 10:51 So I personally find the abortion ritual, really beautiful. And you know, just speaking as someone who who is, says male, and will never really have to be deeply personally touched by this issue. So from my own personal limited perspective, I find the ritual kind of really simple and beautiful. And to go ahead and just give my audience an idea of what the ritual looks like, I will just read off from the announcement, the what the ritual is. So for surgical abortions. It reads prior to receiving any anesthetic or sedation, look at your reflection, to remind to be reminded of your personhood and your responsibility to yourself. Focus on your intent. Take deep breaths and make yourself comfortable. When you are ready, say the third tenet and fifth tenet aloud, you may now undergo the surgery after the surgery is completed and any anaesthetic has worn off, return to your reflection and recite your personal affirmation, field doubts dissipating, and your confidence growing as you have just undertaken a decision that affirms your autonomy and free will, the religious abortion ritual is now complete. And then there is a similar script for medical abortions, as well. But but that's the that's the basic idea. And what I find, so an important issue here is that this is really about so it's about a lot of things, if I'm understanding correctly, but most of all, this is about providing comfort, via ritual to women who are struggling with the stress and uncertainty and, and difficulty of this medical procedure, is that right?
"Jane Essex" 13:03 Right. And, you know, just just to kind of give a little bit more context, you know, anyone that is seeking an abortion for whatever reason, and it can be for whatever reason. It's, it's not always a stressful experience. Like, I know that for a lot of people, they just want to get it over with, they just want to have it done, and be done with it and move on with their lives. And that's fine. But there are people that do struggle with it, especially people that might have some kind of, you know, religious struggle in their lives, like they may feel, you know, confident in their decision. But, you know, they wonder about, you know, is this going to dam their soul for eternity? Those types, this is kind of different. This ritual is intended for Satanists, and for people that, you know, align themselves with our tenets, that this is part of their deeply held belief system. So, not every abortion is satanic, obviously. So it's, it's a little bit more narrow for for this particular ritual. So for anyone that, you know, is in the Satanic Temple that considers themselves a member or, you know, for someone that might actually belong to a chapter, this this is basically this is for us. And it allows us to, you know, look at these ridiculous obstacles that people seeking an abortion have to go through like these, you know, these counseling sessions that are designed to make people question themselves are very gaslighting. They're very, you know, medically inaccurate, you know, there are situations where people have to sign off on these documents that literally contain medically inaccurate information. You And that's just that's just absolutely ridiculous. So for us as Satanists, we say, No, that's not part of our belief system that actually violates our deeply held beliefs based on this as tenants. So, you know, there's just all these little things that kind of come up when someone is looking to get an abortion. And for us, we're saying no, like that, that doesn't jive with what we believe in, that's not part of what, you know, what we hold, you know, so close. A lot of the surgical abortion, you know, that means, you know, going to a clinic going to a doctor, you know, versus the medical abortion, which is the pill. So, the surgical abortion, you know, a lot of people will undergo anesthesia, some people don't, I know that for for some surgical abortions, they only offer local anesthesia. So the patient is awake the whole time, they might be in like a twilight sort of anesthesia or no anesthesia at all, just for the pain. So it's very, it's very difficult for some people. So, you know, that's, again, like getting back to the original sort of idea behind it. This is meant to, to comfort this isn't meant to be an affirmation, it's, you know, it's putting the patient's you know, mental state first. And it's, you know, it's there as a way for us to not only express our satanic beliefs, but also to bring us comfort.
Stephen Bradford Long 16:39 I think that there's something really important in here, and it helps that helps to correct some misguided notions about what TSP is. You know, I think that a lot of people see T S T as political activists who are just whose sole purpose whose only purpose is to reveal the hypocrisy of of fundamentalist Christians are Christian theocrats. But there's really much more to it than that. And and I've seen some discussion online about the abortion ritual being framed purely as that purely as this is about fighting against the theocrats. And that's part of it. But, but there's this much broader and more holistic element that I so often feel gets ignored, which is that this is truly a religious ritual, for religion for adherence of a particular religion. And it is for their own practice, their own comfort, their own edification. And in that it, it really is a religious act, and not just an activist act. Does that make sense? And am I am I correct in that?
"Jane Essex" 18:04 Yes. And it's funny, too, because, you know, for the longest time people have looked at tsp to say, alright, well, you're just activists in you know, in golf clothes, or, you know, you're not actually you don't actually believe any of them.
Stephen Bradford Long 18:21 My favorite is ACLU. My favorite? I think that's hilarious. Anyway, go on.
"Jane Essex" 18:29 Go. Yeah, it's, it's, it's very much a religious ritual. Yeah. And, you know, you can you can put it in the same context, as you know, a Catholic receiving Communion. Yes, exactly. You know, they're not, like, they're not taking the communion because they want to snack, you know, it's not like that. It's very, it's very meaningful, and Satanism is a religion. And, you know, there's, there's so many people that I've seen kind of come and go from TST, either from chapters or, you know, just as individuals that kind of weave in and out. And it's, you know, it's, this is an actual religion, and this abortion ritual is a religious ritual. Yeah. And it should be treated as such. And you know, that I feel like we're always going to have those detractors that want to kind of paint us in this certain kind of light to say, well, you know, you are, you're not actually achieving anything, you're not this, you're not bad. But for the people that are here for the long run, it actually means something. It is their deeply held belief system. It's very important. So, you know, I've seen it myself on the internet where other you know, other groups try to discredit us and they say, Well, you know, you're not this you're not that. You can't speak for those people that really do hold this. True and there's a lot of us yeah, there's so many more. That believe this that this is is our religious face that, you know, you can see all the tweets in the world and all the Facebook updates and all the angry people. But it's like this is for this is for us, this is very meaningful, and it's real.
Stephen Bradford Long 20:17 And all of those, none of those angry tweets and medium articles and blog posts, none of that detracts for a moment from the fact that this is a this is an authentic religion for us, you know, not for a single moment does it detract from the fact that this is our religion and our religious conviction and the, the, the components of activism that we do engage in, you know, it's just so funny to me, because, like, I think of the Quakers, I'm a big fan of the Quakers, you know, after I left, after I left, the Catholic Church, I had some time in the Quakers with my boyfriend, and the Quakers are generally on the front lines of activism, you know, they have been for decades, you know, they've been anti war. They've been protesters, they have been, they've, they've just been, they've been, you know, they've been activist for LGBT people before it was ever, you know, decades before it was in vogue. You know, they've been there. And, and for someone to come along and say, Oh, Quakers aren't really religious, they're just activists pretending to be Quakers would be so stupid, you know, it would be so absurd, like, no, their activism flows from their deeply held religious beliefs, their activism is an act of religion, and the same is true for us. So yeah, that this is a this is an authentic religious ritual meant for Satanists. And something that I also find really beautiful about this ritual is it is specifically a religious ritual for people with pregnancies for people or for people with vaginas and wombs. Right? And how many religious rituals are there specifically for that demographic, and I see it kind of boundary breaking in that way. And I personally think that's really beautiful. Like, how many religious rituals are there out there in America that are specific? And of course, I'm sure there are in there are in the witch communities there are in pagan communities and so on, but, but honestly, there aren't many rituals, just for people with vaginas and wombs, you know, and I think that's really important to have that, for that demographic.
"Jane Essex" 22:45 Right. Yeah. And I mean, it's, there's been a lot of unfortunate sort of, what's the word I'm looking for not commentary, but discourse about who can have an abortion, you know, what gender has sort of, you know, ownership over this sort of thing. And that's just nonsense.
Stephen Bradford Long 23:05 It's toxic. Yeah.
"Jane Essex" 23:06 It's terrible. And, you know, we've, we've seen this happen before, where, you know, you have this sort of, you know, turf mentality. And, you know, it's like, oh, only women can get abortion, this and that. And it's like, not like that. That's another massively important thing to remember about this, is that this ritual is for anyone that is pregnant, that wants to terminate their pregnancy. And that's, you know, full stop. And, you know, we've, we've even seen over the past couple days, where, you know, people are like, Oh, well, you use women, you said women, and we're like, show us the receipts. Where did we say women? Like, you know, just show us where we messed up, and then we'll fix it. Yes. But the thing that we're noticing is that it's not people aren't. I wouldn't say they're lying, but they're being disingenuous. And they're trying to sort of say, like, oh, well, you know, we need to, we need to pick these things apart. We need to show them exactly, you know, why this is wrong, and why this doesn't make sense, whatever. But what they don't realize is that the religious reproductive rights team that I'm a part of, yes, it's, you know, executive ministry, ministry, when, you know, was, was an album and Lucien Greaves, but most of the work that went into this was done by women was done by non non binary people, and trans people. So, you know, like I mentioned before, there's, there's an entire system that is working here, like, you know, a mother wrote the first edition of the ritual itself, you know, someone that has children in, you know, was able to, you know, sort of write this first draft of something that turned into something so beautiful. And, you know, myself, you know, obviously, you know, I'm a sis woman, and you know, other people that I've worked directly alongside with have been trans or they've been non binary. So I think a big misconception that a lot of people have about the Satanic Temple, and this kind of goes a little bit wider than just this particular committee is that people seem to look at the Satanic Temple and they say, alright, well, it's just, it's all men, don't white men doing all this work, you know, so we, you know, we don't support that we want diversity, we want more people who have, you know, marginalized voices to be put to the forefront. And over the past couple of years, I can say that I've been part of that, I've seen it, I've witnessed it, I've participated in it. So you have this example here of, you know, this religious abortion ritual. And then you got people yelling on Twitter, or wherever else and there's gonna, like, well, how can you have, you know, all these men doing all this and whatever. And it's like, that erases so much hard work. It erases the agency that we have, as you know, as leaders within the Satanic Temple. It's just really freaking irritating, honestly. Because, yeah, there's so much that goes on behind the scenes that people don't see. And they're not supposed to see, there's a lot of people that, you know, struggle with, they can't be out and Satanists. So you know, they prefer to work behind the scenes, that doesn't mean that everything that comes down, you know, from executive ministry is male driven. And, you know, that was something I really wanted to drive home as well. Because, you know, for me, it's like, I see that and they say, well, TST is doing all this, and it's just two guys doing it. And it's like, no, that is not the case at all. I'm proof of that. And it's very frustrating to have the hard work that goes into these things kind of dismissed so
Stephen Bradford Long 26:53 easily. I 100%. Agree. Yeah. And we see this
"Jane Essex" 26:57 all the time. So, you know, just as, as my opportunity as spokesperson for this campaign, I have to give props for process do. There's a lot of stuff that goes on that people don't see. And, you know, it's a double edged sword. And it's unfortunate, because there is there's so many wonderful people that are involved in TSP, that no one will ever know their names. And whether that's by design, whether by choice, or what have you, we're making this stuff happen. And this religious reproductive rights, you know, committee that we have is proof of that. It's not just one person, it's not just executives in charge, it's a real effort by lots of different people coming from different places, and with different life experiences coming together to do this as a way to celebrate, you know, bodily autonomy as a way to sort of say, hey, you know, an abortion doesn't have to be so, you know, sad, almost, because it doesn't have to be like, it's, this is part of many people's life experience. So as a Satanist, it's important for me to be able to contribute something that will be meaningful to someone else. And I don't know, if I'll ever have an abortion, you know, I don't know if that part of my life will happen. But I know that if it does, and if I do choose to terminate a pregnancy, I will do it in such a way that it reflects my belief, and it will comfort me and it will make me feel better about the choice that I'm making. When there's so much static and so much noise coming from the outside, that were telling me I'm a bad person, for wanting to pursue that option. So, you know, again, just to reiterate, there's, there's just so many amazing people that I've worked with, personally, that are across the organization. It's not just the boys game anymore, like this, this thread so efficiently and so beautifully. We have so many different kinds of people involved in leadership, that are making these decisions that are, you know, creating these rituals that are doing the work. So, you know, big shout out to all those people and, you know, in the work that they're doing,
Stephen Bradford Long 29:26 absolutely, and I'm so glad that you bring that up, because, honestly, it's a criticism that that I have never really understood. You know, I because I've been a member of TST since 2017. And in that time, you know, I've I've interviewed a lot of leadership of tst. I have talked to a lot of different leaders, and I've I've talked to a lot of the general membership. And I would say, you know, I'm not going to Put a percentage on it. But a giant, gigantic percentage, I mean, a gigantic number, a gigantic proportion of TST both the leadership and the membership are trans and non binary and gay, and lesbian, and, and so on. And women, especially, you know, there's so, so many women in TST, as well. And so it's, it's a criticism that I've never really understood. So I'm glad you bring that up. And also another point that you just brought up, that's really important. The, the counterbalance the ritual being a counterbalance to all of the kind of toxic atmospheric noise coming at a person who wants an abortion from the religious right. I mean, you know, I just had a friend who, who went to get an abortion, and she, she basically had to, like, walk through this horrifying gauntlet, of, of pro life protesters. And, you know, she's already in a, in a vulnerable position. And then she has to kind of go through this gauntlet, of, of people deliberately trying to to make her second guess herself, you know, and to kind of gaslight her, and it's, and it's fucking traumatizing. I mean it, especially for someone who, who's who has maybe already feeling vulnerable. And that isn't, and I, you know, it's important to clarify, that isn't all people who get abortions, of course, you know, that that isn't everyone, but it is some, you know, and and this this one particular friend of mine, she was feeling particularly vulnerable. And she ended up having to walk through this gauntlet, of, of pro life, people basically trying to get her to second guess, the toys that she knew she had to make. And then once you get into the clinic, there are all of these religiously motivated draconian rules that a person has to go through in in order to get their procedure. And all of it all of it is designed to make them second guessed themselves, right. And so So what are the exemptions that that this ritual affords people?
"Jane Essex" 32:30 Right, so most of these things are in our religious reproductive rights campaign website. So a lot of this stuff is already on there. So I'll just actually take it from from that site. So some of the requirements that can't be enforced on sickness, there's mandatory waiting periods. Now, waiting periods, as I understand that are designed to, you know, bring someone into a clinic environment, say, Okay, you're pregnant. You know, maybe you've already decided to have the abortion. But are you really sure that's what you want to do. So it's that the waiting periods are designed to sort of plant that seed of doubt. And the waiting periods can vary from 24 hours, I've seen it as many as 72 hours, which is ridiculous. Because if you're going to a lot of people that need an abortion, access to that abortion, it varies wildly, depending on where you are, some states only have a couple abortion clinics, some, you know, some don't some have, you know, Planned Parenthood or independent clinics or OBGYN offices that will offer it. So it really depends on where you are and what the laws are in that state. So a waiting period is designed to say, Okay, well, we know that you're thinking about this abortion, but are you really sure, so they'll send people home? Or they'll send people away? You know, after like, part one of whatever consultation they might be having. That's ridiculous. Yeah, there's been a saying in, you know, the, the pro choice movement, abortion on demand without apology, that kind of takes that away, because it's not on demand, if you can't have it right then and there. So the waiting periods are designed to, you know, to kind of make people question themselves to second guess themselves to, you know, sort of give an opportunity to change their mind. I can't think of a single person that I've known in my life where something like that has worked. Because if you're pregnant, you either know, or you don't, you're not just kind of like, well, maybe, you know, some people will have that little bit of doubt, of course, but for a lot of people they know as soon as they see the pregnancy test, whether they want to have one or not. And You know, it's, it's it's such like a such a unique human experience to, to have that opportunity to say, oh my goodness, I'm pregnant Hooray or oh my god, I'm pregnant, what do I do now. So, you know, just just to get back to the waiting period, you know, if someone's already kind of on the fence about it, this extra time isn't going to help them, it's only going to make their anxiety worse. And that's kind of what they're banking on. They're saying, Okay, well, if we make someone wait a little bit longer, maybe they'll change their mind. And sometimes it'll happen. Most times, it won't. So to exempt a Satanist, from that mandatory waiting period is basically saying, this serves no scientific or medical necessity. It doesn't do anything except keep the process going, it makes people wait longer. That's, you know, that's, that's not a scientific reason, you know, that's just something that people put in place to either dissuade someone, make them change their mind, if they were already on the fence, whatever the case may be. So that's, that's that for waiting periods. So the next one is, so the requirements that practitioners withhold certain medical information. So that, again, it falls into the unscientific sort of obstacle that doesn't, that doesn't help anything. It's basically saying that a doctor, withhold, you know, medically important information in an attempt to again, make someone change their mind or make them feel like, you know, an abortion maybe isn't the right choice for them. It kind of falls in line with the next one of compulsory counseling, before an abortion. So a counseling session in certain places. It's basically when the patient sits down with someone that it's their job, basically, to talk someone out of it, you know, they might use, you know, medically inaccurate information, they might use scripture, you know, things that come straight from the Bible that, you know, are going to be used to confuse people or, you know, make them feel a little bit more guilty. And, you know, anyone that's familiar with the Bible knows that, you know, the Bible is kind of okay with abortion.
Stephen Bradford Long 37:23 Yes. I'm glad you bring that up. Yeah, it absolutely is.
"Jane Essex" 37:28 So, you know, you have these sort of cherry picks, you know, bible quotes, that, you know, when it when it's, you know, behind that desk, and you have someone saying, like, you know, God may strike you down, you may go to hell, or you might be okay. You really don't know yet. So, that's a very, you know, abusive practice, you know, to try to scare someone bible quotes, like, that's just unconscionable to me, but it happens. Yeah. So there's, you know, there's other things like required reading materials, which is basically, you know, another sort of religious bend, where, you know, you have these documents from the state that it's happening, and it says, conception, is when life begins, which again, is medically and scientifically inaccurate. Now, you have different, you know, different ways of saying that, in different states will require, you know, sort of carefully worded things along those lines. But what a lot of people are required to do is to say, Yes, this document says, life begins at conception, I acknowledge that, and then they have to sign it, which, you know, again, that violates all kinds of things for us, because, you know, it's, it's not meant as a way to help the person, it's meant to, to frighten them, to give them more anxiety, and basically sign a document that they don't believe in, that is a direct violation of our fifth Tenet, because it's what it's like signing a fraudulent document. And the only reason that exists, is to make people question themselves or feel bad. Yeah. You know, and other things like sonograms, or like an ultrasound. Probably one of the most invasive things that someone can go through is what's called the trans vaginal ultrasound, which is basically your on a table. And you know, when you think of an ultrasound, you think of putting it on, you know, someone's abdomen, you know, and have the ultrasound done that way. And then you have the trans vaginal, which goes right up the vagina, and I can't think of anything more invasive than that. And again, you know, there are medical reasons for sonograms in some cases, but if it's for a consultation fordable worsened or if, you know it has anything to do with an abortion, that the patient has already decided that they're going to have to do this extra, you know, ultrasound either internal or external, that that is a direct violation as well, because your body is inviolable. And if you've already chosen to have an abortion, to, you know, to be penetrated by something, just so that you can see a fetal heartbeat, or, you know, listen to the fetal heartbeat or anything like that, like that is so in my mind, that is like one of the worst possible things that someone can do. And, you know, again, if it doesn't have anything to do with the actual abortion itself, a sickness should not have to go through that. Absolutely. And then the final one was the compulsory burial or cremation of fetal remains,
Stephen Bradford Long 40:54 this one is wild to me, I cannot I mean, all of the all of these, all of these are wild. I mean, all of these are fucking monstrous in positions of cruelty, in my opinion, but this one just blows my mind.
"Jane Essex" 41:13 It's it's absolutely just, I, you know, the only room that I can think of it is it's ridiculous. Yeah. And, you know, it serves absolutely no function. It serves absolutely no, say
Stephen Bradford Long 41:27 the, say what, say what it is one more time?
"Jane Essex" 41:31 Well, the compulsory burial or cremation of fetal remains, right? Yes. So basically, it's, you know, it's the requirement that once an abortion is completed, that the patient then has the added burden of disposing of the remains, and it has to be done in such a way that, you know, it's almost like having a funeral for it, or, you know, basically just acknowledging that it's not, you know, fetal tissue that's just been removed from someone's body in a medical procedure, like, can you imagine, like having, you know, gallbladder surgery, and then be required to have a funeral for the gallbladder, you know, it just, it doesn't, it's not given the same level of understanding that, you know, if you're going to get a tooth pulled, when you do the children don't keep it unless you really want to, which is kind of cool sometimes, but it's medical waste, it should be disposed of as though is medical waste. And this, you know, burial or cremation of fetal of fetal tissue. That's just weird. It's to me, it's just weird. And, again, it serves no medical function, when, you know, if a patient has any kind of other surgery, it's not required for that. So why should it be required for this? So again, it goes against our satanic beliefs.
Stephen Bradford Long 43:01 And a side effect of a lot of these is unnecessary financial strain as well. Oh, yeah. You know, and that's, that's another important piece of this is, you know, for example, the mandatory waiting periods for for people who are, say, working minimum wage, or people who, who just don't have much leeway, who, and then who have to travel cross country, you know, across state to get to an abortion clinic, and then to be told, Oh, you have to wait another how many hours it is another day or two? This this is that that can that can be a serious financial burden. And then am I correct in thinking that the mandatory funeral for the fetal remains is also paid for by by the person who got the abortion? Am I right in in that or is that wrong?
"Jane Essex" 44:07 Well, that that depends. Because if, you know, it really just depends on where it is, what the what the regulation is. But for the most part, yeah, it's not going to be covered by someone's health insurance, it's probably going to be out of pocket. And it's not going to be you know, a cheap sort of thing either. It's going to be yet another financial burden on someone that is only looking to obtain a safe and legal abortion. And you're also right about, you know, the financial burden of, you know, travel expenses, taking time off of work, you know, having if you already have children, you know, childcare for taking a couple days off. It's all kind of wrapped into, what we're, you know, what we're working against, which is, you know, subjecting st NIS to these regulations that serve no medical purpose. They don't help anybody, you know, it only serves to hinder the actual procedure itself. And so, you know, there are abortion regulations that we're not against. But it's, it's mostly these extraneous obligations that someone has to go through, just for this particular procedure, you know, you don't have to do a waiting period for, you know, if you get, you know, conjunctivitis, you know, it's just it doesn't, it doesn't make sense. And I feel like that's, that's the part that really needs to get sort of, you know, highlighted is, someone seeking an abortion has to go through both a physical gauntlet, that emotional gauntlet, sometimes have all these, you know, people screaming at them to change their mind to save their baby to, you know, they're holding up these horrific graphic, you know, mutilated body parts, to try to get somebody to change their mind. And, you know, once you get in the clinic, then it's a whole new set of things. And for the most part, clinics are only doing these things because they have to do not because they want to, or they think that, you know, it's, it's okay to do so, you know, these mandates that the states put out, are designed to get people not to have an abortion. You know, that's, that's what we're rallying against the hay. These obstacles go against our religious beliefs, and we're not subjected to them.
Stephen Bradford Long 46:38 So we're almost at the hour mark, but do you have time to, to respond to some questions from my listeners, and from the general, just responses that I've seen to this?
"Jane Essex" 46:49 Yeah, sure, I'll do my best. So
Stephen Bradford Long 46:53 one person on my Discord asks, Is the ritual fluid? Can people tailor it to them? Or do they have to do this specific TST abortion ritual as written?
"Jane Essex" 47:05 It's very personalized ritual. And honestly, the, the most important part of it is the intense. And, you know, we have, you know, design this pretty much as the Satanic Temple only official ritual. So we've had people say, All right, well, you know, do you have a funeral rituals, you have a baptism ritual? And the answer is no, because ritual is such a personal thing. But this particular abortion ritual, you know, with the recitation of the tenants, having the procedure, and then the personal affirmation, if somebody wants to, you know, make a whole big thing of it, you know, whatever, serves them the best. Yeah. And like I said, it's the intent. That's the important part. It's to bring comfort, it's to assert one's bodily autonomy and say, Yes, this is a choice that I am making of my own freewill. This is something that I'm doing for myself. That's what makes it a satanic abortion ritual. So once you do, you know, you know, you can have all the fancy candles and robes and recitation, whatever works best for that person. But ultimately, this particular, you know, ritual that we've structured here, it's the intent behind it. That's the important part.
Stephen Bradford Long 48:33 So another person on my Discord asks, I understand the basic idea, but what if the person performing the abortion refuses either because of religious reasons? Or because even though it is our right to do they really have to participate in the ritual? If we are claiming we are exempt because it is part of a religious ritual? Are we then forcing someone else to participate in our ritual? Also, do you think doing this will reinforce the idea that we kill children and force people to eat fit fetuses and garbage like that? Okay, so there are two parts here. One is, is the ritual and encroachment on the providers of the abortion?
"Jane Essex" 49:25 In this terms, no. Okay. The, the, the actual ritual itself, it's not going to interfere with the doctor's ability to perform an abortion. It's really just, you know, one can look at one's reflection in the mirror, you know, in the waiting room, you know, you can look at your Snapchat, you can take a selfie to look at your own face. So look at your own image, and to say, you know, to recite the third and fifth tenets, so you can do that. You don't even have to say it out loud. You can do in whatever manner works best for you. And we also look at it, as, you know, the, the abortion itself is central to the ritual. So, you know, if you present the letter that we've prepared to the clinic staff, they say, you know, we can't argue this, let's go, you can do this ritual as easily as it is to just close your eyes to kind of, you know, mouthed the words if that's what works best for that situation. And then once you have the abortion, and you're in the recovery room, you know, the anesthesia wears off, then you can say, the personal affirmation again, well, looking at your reflection, to say I just, you know, did something for myself that I find to be very important to my, my health, my safety, and my sanity, whatever the case is. So, the three parts to it, the pre recitation of the tenant, the abortion, and then the affirmation, technically, that shouldn't have any sort of bearing on clinic staff, the doctor, but if you know, if we do have a situation where a doctor refuses, or according refuses because they have to abide by state regulations, that patient that needs to contact the satanic temples, religious reproductive rights team by email, so that we can then intervene. Right. So that's, that's really the key. So it's not going to be a ritual that will interfere with the medical procedure itself. But you know, if you have a situation like that, you know, that's, that's what we're there for. So they can contact us, and then we'll jump right in.
Stephen Bradford Long 51:38 I want to end on a final question. And it's, it's kind of a big one. And it's one of the the sort of primary sources of the controversy that I'm seeing on the internet, which is, does this reinforce the conspiracy theory? On the part of many Christians, that Satanists actually sacrifice children? And it does this actually endanger? Satanists? I've seen a lot of people claim that this actually endangers Satanists, because it it, it reinforces the idea that we sacrifice children. How do you respond to that?
"Jane Essex" 52:17 Yeah, I mean, it's very difficult to sort of reinvent the wheel. And people already think that Satanists sacrifice children, they already think that we're doing all these horrible, horrible things, the Satanic Panic is still alive. And well, because you have things like Q Anon, and you've got things that, you know, pizza gate keeps coming up, and it's like, what the hell? So? Yeah, there's really, you know, if someone believes that we're already doing this, this isn't going to help them believe any otherwise. But at the same time, if we didn't do this ritual, they're still going to believe that exact so our attitude is, you know, it's more important to center, the people that are having the abortion, to put their rights first and foremost, to put their feelings first and foremost. So, there's always going to be a certain segment of the population that will do no research, they don't care. We're here to work Satan, and they automatically assume what we're doing. So it's, it's, it's more worth it, in my opinion, that to put our own people's needs first, absolutely. You know, like I said, they're gonna, they're gonna say that we're doing this anyway. So, you know, we may as well look at the laws that are in place, you know, and say, Hey, how can we help our people? How can we make our people more comfortable within the laws that already exists? not vice versa? Like, we're not looking at these laws to say, Hey, how can we get over this, but no, like this? This is a religion, this, these are our, you know, our people that we want to make them feel better, we want to give them confidence in a world that would rather knock them down, then, you know, give them help. Yeah. So. So yeah, just to get back to the central thing, like, you know, the Satanist has a risk, there's, you know, there's no way of avoiding it. And obviously, you know, when you put abortion plus Satan in the same sentence, people are gonna go bananas. And it's, that's just a part of it. So, you know, it's not going to endanger people, in a sense that it's going to make them more vulnerable. Because if you look at the actual procedure itself, the system goes into their doctor, and they say, you know, I'm exempt from these things. That is, that's a conversation between the patient and doctor, though it's not making it public. It's not putting their risk putting their health at risk, putting the safety at risk. The only time that that might come into play is if you We'll want to discuss it openly. So, you know, just to kind of circle back, you know, there's so many things that people think that Satanists are doing. Like they still think that their satanic monuments all over the country that people aren't, you know, necessarily connected to the reality of what the Satanic Temple is doing. So, you know, there is inherent risk in being a Satanist. You know, there's inherent risk of, you know, discussing abortion, even, you know, beyond that, I look at so many abortion providers, and, you know, people on Twitter and the Internet, that support abortion, and they get death threats, like, it's, it's just one of those topics, that it's always going to be sensitive, it's always going to be difficult to talk about. So, you know, just kind of putting everything all together for our, you know, for Satanists. It is what it is, we'll, we'll we'll see how it goes. You know, we'll, we'll take on any challenges that we get? Because ultimately, we feel like this is, this is what's best, and this is what needs to happen.
Stephen Bradford Long 56:08 Yeah. And, you know, I would also just encourage people who have that concern, to, to really think through the implications of that worry. Because it, it, it might actually work against us that that fear of, of, you know, being afraid that conservatives, and Christians will just see this as confirmation that Satanists actually kill babies, it might actually be giving them the argument and might actually just be reinforcing the idea that, that fetuses are babies, right. And so we, you know, we really need to be careful about letting the right determine the argument, you know, and determine the terms. So we have to be so careful of that. And I just refuse to give them the argument. It's like, no, fetuses are not babies, we're not going to concede that point. And the best way to, you know, dispel the delusion that we sacrifice babies is to not sacrifice babies, you know, and, and for people who are alarmed by this development, I would just, you know, encourage you to look at the history of TSP, and understand that tsp from the very beginning, has seen abortion as a religious issue. Like, this isn't new, like, this is not, this is not a surprising thing that the Satanic Temple is doing right? Like, like, the Satanic Temple has been talking about abortion, in religious terms, for as long as I can think of it existing. You know, it, it's been. So this is not out of character of, of the Satanic Temple, this isn't new, we have been talking about abortion in a religious sense, in a satanic religious sense, for as long as we have existed as an organization. And if you're really worried about this, maybe, maybe think about why you're so afraid of the religious right, and what they think of you. Because if we're, if we're, yeah, if we're afraid of what the religious right thinks of us, that's how they fucking win. You know, that's how we lose. And I don't know, I just, there's a lot of stuff about this conversation that frustrates me on it. I mean, not this conversation with you, but the broader conversation on the internet about this, it just frustrates me because I, I don't think that people really think through the implications of it very clearly. Also, if your dear listener, if you're worried if you're a Satanist, and you're worried about what people think of you, and if you're worried about being demonized by the right, maybe the problem is the satanic part, not the abortion part.
"Jane Essex" 59:08 Exactly. Anyway. Yeah,
Stephen Bradford Long 59:10 I just, yeah, go on.
"Jane Essex" 59:12 Yeah. And it's like, I can't think of a better way to sort of like, you know, sort of demonstrate your loyalty and your patriotism by, you know, exercising your rights by partaking in an abortion ritual. Like think about it, you know, that, you know, you have so many people that are, you know, the ripping on to the Bill of Rights, like it's a security blanket, yet when other people want to exercise their rights. You know, if it goes against what they believe, then oh, you know, we can't have that like this. This is for us. This is only for us. And it's like no, that's not you know, I studied the Constitution. I studied the Bill of Rights. You know, the Declaration of Independence like these are all documents that, you know, conservatives and right wing people You know, the the, they're just cling to it with their, you know, for dear life. And as soon as another group decides that they also are entitled to those same protections, it's like suddenly, oh, you know, we gotta watch out for them. It's like the same thing that happened with, you know, Second Amendment rights when the Black Panthers started to carry, you know, assault rifles, because they could the, you know, the Second Amendment is there to protect people. And it's like, it's a very similar thing. Like, as soon as, you know, the other group wants to use these things. Oh, then it's a big deal. But, you know, for the Christian majority that believes that, you know, America is a Christian nation. It isn't. And we're proof of that. So, you know, that's, that's just kind of my final sort of, you know, statement on conservatives like, think I think of a different way of framing it. It's like, you know, what is more patriotic than exercising your rights? Absolutely. Like that's, that's what we're doing here.
Stephen Bradford Long 1:01:07 Absolutely. I think that's a great note to end on. For people who want to learn more about the abortion ritual and the and the work you're doing. Where can they find that?
"Jane Essex" 1:01:16 Right now? It's just announcement dot the satanic temple.com.
Stephen Bradford Long 1:01:23 Great, and I will post a link to that in the show notes. Excellent. All right. Well, this has been a great conversation. And you're welcome back anytime to talk more about this issue or any other just let me know I'm, I'm happy to have you on anytime.
"Jane Essex" 1:01:40 Oh, thank you. This has been great. I appreciate it. Awesome.
Stephen Bradford Long 1:01:43 Well, that is it for this show. As always, the music is by the jelly rocks and eleventy seven you can find their music on iTunes, Spotify or wherever you listen to music. The show is supported by patrons like you to join their number go to patreon.com forward slash Steven Bradford long for $1 A month $5 A month or $10 a month you will get extra content every week and you will ensure the long life of this show. This show is written produced and edited by me Steven Bradford long and is a production of rock candy media and as always Hail Satan we'll see you next week I was six years old? Want to say To pay risk