Podcasts/TFTP-Ep146

The Free Thought Prophet Ep. 146 - "Hail Satan!" feat. Lucien Greaves
April 19, 2019
Lucien Greaves is a social activist and the spokesman and co-founder of The Satanic Temple. Greaves has appeared in numerous media outlets and has made televised appearances on the Fox News Network. He is a public speaker and essayist who has contributed articles to publications including Skeptic Magazine, Skeptical Inquirer, The Washington Post and International Business Times.
https://thefreethoughtprophet.podbean.com/e/hail-satan-episode-146-with-lucien-greaves/

Transcript

[WIP]

Unknown Speaker 0:21 Hello again, everybody and welcome to another edition of The Free Thought Prophet Podcast. I'm Seamus and he's been known to client coves inhale sulfur, sharpen his forks, raise his horns, compliment Crowley, lionize Levine all while dancing with Mr. D. Fresh office fresh off his inspection. Maybe has an office there. I'm sure he does at the knife. Gate of Hell. He is of course, Johnny.

Unknown Speaker 0:49 How's it going? GMSA oh man, and not too bad. So I don't know if people will have guessed from a your very eloquent introduction. But we have a returning guest. This evening. We're going to be talking to the the man who needs no introduction. Lucien Greaves about his. I don't know, I don't want to say it's the Lucien Greaves movie. It's more about the atomic temple. And but obviously he figures prominently and not. And yes, so I'm looking forward to this. I think Kim Lucien is famous for at least two things. One is making Tucker Carlson look like. And the other is being a very urban and thoughtful advocate for Satanism. So yeah, if anyone thinks that Satanists are the people associated with the Satanic Temple, just want to a babies are whatever kind of Yeah, crazy thing people tend to associate with Satanists, then they will be definitely surprised by the articulate intellectual Lucien Greaves.

Unknown Speaker 2:16 Isn't it funny that every time that you hear an actual report in the news about a child or children being assaulted or abuse, it's always with a actual, you know, legitimate church? Maybe, you know, Christian, Catholic, maybe? I don't know. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 2:38 Maybe we need to get the satanists to save the children from the priests. Oh,

Unknown Speaker 2:42 good point. Good point. I think that's the first question.

Unknown Speaker 2:47 Yeah, I got the this temple book for children. And for my kids. It's great fun, and they loved it. But it comes with satanic barges that the kids can pick on with Baphomet said. So my wife drew the line at the right time with satanic badges and alloy before satanic capital T shirt when the Jehovah's Witnesses came to the door recently. All that's brilliant. So I was just, I just politely told them Look, I'm not religious, but I hope you folks have a good day. And it was very quick exchange, but it was only after I closed the door. I realized it was wearing this t shirt. I

Unknown Speaker 3:34 thought they'd never come to my house. They don't you know, from you know, you know, from talking to me that that live close to my family. They'll go to the other family members and they'll hide like my family were stolen answer the door. Like, why why don't have fun. Come on. You know, we send them to me. I'll talk to them, you know, just doesn't work out that way. Yep.

Unknown Speaker 3:57 Okay, so we've been looking forward to this for a while, at least since we saw the trailer for Satan. So let's get lithium.

Unknown Speaker 4:10 Welcome back to The Free Thought Prophet, Lucian graves.

Unknown Speaker 4:14 Hey, thank you for having

Unknown Speaker 4:15 it's really great to get the chance to talk with you again lesion and we have a big bunch of questions they ask about the forthcoming movie he'll sit in and just just before we get onto that, do you mind if I just provide some introductory information about the Satanic Temple? So if if I wanted to be a sickness timer, I go about doing that too. I need to read lots of Milton and Blake and Shelley or do I just listen to heavy metal music backwards?

Unknown Speaker 4:49 Well, whatever works best for you. You know what I think the most important thing people need to understand that we're non theistic, we don't advocate for any supernatural beliefs, and they should know what our general tenets are. But those can all be found on our site, the Satanic Temple calm. And I do think the film, Hail Satan is kind of a good introductory primer to help people understand who we are so glad for that reason that it's out there.

Unknown Speaker 5:22 Great. And we'll, we'll definitely include a link to the trailer and encourage people to check out right. And just as an introduction to the movie and listen, does it focus specifically on the 10 commandments monument and the Baphomet issue? Or is it a broader overview of the Satanic Temple?

Unknown Speaker 5:48 It's a broader overview. But if you you know, take a cursory watch of it. One time, you're bound to miss how many issues are actually covered, because it's kind of the narrative is kind of seamlessly constructed in a way that makes it very entertaining for the audience in makes it kind of easy to miss how much material is covered. As far as our campaigns go, the central one in the film is the is the 10 commandments, versus bathmat campaign. Yeah. But that's the only thing covered, but by necessity, because it's only an hour and a half film. Sure, a lot of what we've done just kind of gets a cursory overview, and hopefully it gives people the impetus to go check out more.

Unknown Speaker 6:39 Okay, and and just before we come on to the, the issue with the monument that I guess relates to the establishment clause in general. And I know there's, there's lots of other stuff on the site. And I was telling Seamus, before we started here that my kids have the, the Satanic Temple coloring book, and they really enjoyed that. It's a it's a lot of fun. Would you like to say a few words about some of the other things that the organization's involved with, apart from the Establishment Clause type campaigns?

Unknown Speaker 7:16 Well, one campaign we have a real hard time drawing attention to because it's a really kind of complicated issue and not given to the easy sound bites are the clickbait worthy headlines is some of the other things is our gray faction campaign. Yeah, where we kind of fight against mental health, professional mental health malpractice. Well, I guess it's not recognized as malpractice. And that's really the problem. But people are still using recovered memory therapies to draw forth confabulated confessions of satanic ritual abuse. And yet other types of bizarre narratives usually in the process of treatment for multiple personality disorder, or dissociative identity disorder, as it's called now. And there's a lot of pseudoscience in debunked bizarre conspiracies, narratives that get attached all of this that are said to be justified by the science of, of traumatic repression. And really, there's no science to it at all. And people's lives are still being ruined by these claims, and lose their licenses. We still engage in these practices. But it's a that's been one of our hardest battles, like I said, because it's it's really difficult to get people to, to pay attention to it. It's so much easier when it's, you know, Satan versus the 10 commandments monument or other things. I think most of our other campaigns have gotten a significant amount of press, I think our reproductive rights campaigns might not have gotten as much press I don't think is today we're worthy of. Because these were really, you know, stood to be precedent setting, where nations we had this was really kind of a testing ground for if our religious liberty laws are going to be equally applied or or not. And so it's a very, you know, those are some momentous cases right there. But they're on appeal right now. And we still don't know how they'll turn out. Yeah, I'm still not sure though, how much people really know about this, about those cases when they know about us. I kind of lose hold of what the what the general impression is, you know, yeah, I'm in the center. I'm in the center of the storm. So sometimes I need to be reminded exactly what people think of first when they think of the Satanic Temple.

Unknown Speaker 9:50 Sure, sure. I suspect a lot of people think of a you talking to Tucker Carlson

Unknown Speaker 10:02 Don't think we're too badly for me

Unknown Speaker 10:05 at all. So how did sell Yeah, sale? How to hail satan come about exactly.

Unknown Speaker 10:15 Well, there had been no shortage of documentaries, documentarians reaching out to us wanting to do documentaries about the Satanic Temple. And the answer was always no. But most the resulting as well, one thing I think people don't realize about us as we're turned off right away, when we're approached and told that they just want to humanize us, you know, get people to understand who we are as people, because we just don't care about that we, we really care about the issues, we really don't care if people humanize us or feel comfortable with us. They just know. If we don't care if they, if people approve of who we are, who we aren't, that's not the point of of all of this, they need to recognize, though, what our rights are, what we're found, what religious liberty means, they have to come to terms with their cognitive dissonance when they're arguing for religious expression or free speech. And yet, they still think they should be able to keep us out of the public square in any way. And a lot of times, people would approach us and they didn't even have a solid grasp of what the Satanic Temple is. Or they felt that, you know, because of kind of a common perception of us that we were just eager for any type of attention whatsoever. So we would be, you know, amenable to signing on to any project that would put us on the screen. And it just wasn't the case. So at that point, where Penny Lane who directed Hail Satan approached me, I was pretty sure the answer would be no. But I still felt that I owed, you know, a certain amount of due diligence to hear her out anyways. And I was really impressed by the amount of background reading she had done about the Satanic Temple or your depth of understanding about what we were doing. And then she invited me to see a premiere of her previous documentary film nuts, which I thought was brilliantly constructed narrative wise, it was difficult. I imagined it was difficult to put together his story. Or, you know, these people that he did, it was was really quite genius. And I'm, you know, I'm very critical of a lot of documentaries, so many of them are just suck. It's terrible, and not worthy topic matter. And then the, when the or where the topic matters, sometimes the way that the stories are constructed are worth watching at all, but I was really happy with what she did. And then it was really kind of the q&a session that she did during the nuts premiere that I was at that kind of clinched the deal for me, she was talking about these battles she was having with the anti vaccination crowd. And she was coming from a really kind of Resolute difficulty drawing people to cover gray faction, they really thought that Penny be a good fit for somebody who had under understand the gray faction issues and cover them appropriately. So at first I was really trying to push her into I really wasn't terribly interested in a general overview of the Satanic Temple in the same way. I'm not at all interested in having a personal profile made or, you know, some kind of investigation to the lives of Satanists. So that's a you know, that's such a bullshit journalistic tactic that it just it makes me sick. They try to personalize every story to the point that they miss the miss the importance of the issues and the stories themselves I, I really developed a philosophy of that when I realized that nobody understood what the NSA leaks were all they cared about were Edward Snowden and his personal life details, including his girlfriend, being a stripper, whatever else. It seemed like the whole whole NSA surveillance issue just passed under everybody's understanding because they had to personalize it into the story of Edward Snowden anyways. So for years, I've been kind of harboring this resentment of that type of journalism. Ultimately, of course, the documentary ends up being this general overview of the Satanic Temple, but it's still not a personalized account. It doesn't turn me into this. This central character who's being given a biography, and in this whole thing I gives credit to the fact that this is a large movement made comprised of a lot of people. And that this is a a unique cultural moment that the Satanic Temple symbolizes and not just any one person's mission, and I really appreciate it for that.

Unknown Speaker 14:57 Yeah. So it's the movie is more wasn't just Satanists. They don't take Terry's really covers a lot of the campaign issues that you mentioned Lucien. And so let's chat briefly about the monument, if you don't mind. And would you mind giving us an overview of the pushback that you normally receive when you make arguments around the First Amendment and the Establishment Clause? That people generally say, well, these are terrible people, and they should just go away? Or do they say, well, this isn't really a religion, that's a philosophy or it's a parody, or are they trying to argue against a the position that you present?

Unknown Speaker 15:47 Well, because the the US left, got went hysterical after the election of Donald Trump and believe me, I do. I believe that the election of Donald Trump is an absolute catastrophe. But but all of a sudden, we saw certain norms change, whereas once the left were the champions of free speech, all the sudden the right is our acting as free speech martyrs, because people shutting down people from speaking at college campuses, you have cheap. halfwit, comedians, like Milo Yiannopoulos, being shut down in Berkeley and really gaining a name for himself more based, you know, on the controversy, he calls it more than anything else. And it's just seems to be a downward spiral where everybody's, you know, these outsized reactions are causing further reactions from the other side. And it's, it's putting us into a pretty kind of ugly downward spin. Shape. Shit, I forgot what your original question was.

Unknown Speaker 16:52 Yeah, it was in terms of the pushback, I guess we get when you make a legal argument to say the state can't pick it. Right. They push back against the idea of the the Baphomet, or the some equivalent of the 10 commandments.

Unknown Speaker 17:09 All right, I'm just yeah, the difference in the pushback now. I mean, there's just still an irony to me, I guess, being kind of old school. I've seen the, the far right conservatives playing the the Free Speech advocates now. Because, you know, previously it was, you know, Ronald Reagan trying to shut down, saying that it just, it harbored communism, and all these other kind of grotesque ideas that needed to be reined in. So now, you know, you have the right to acting like they're the defenders of free speech only by convenience. And thus, you see, like when I'm on Tucker Carlson was, you know, that was something I didn't let him step away from, I recommend people actually watch that first interview I did with Tucker Carlson, because he was trying to delegitimize us as a religion. And I don't think he expected me to take the perspective of not caring whether or not he had set up, if it didn't bother to explain, anyways, we still had a right to be there, you know, they, they they opened up the public route for private speech, privately donated monuments. And it just simply doesn't matter. If somebody like Tucker Carlson or other or other members of the legislature, Senate in a state or wherever is governing these areas that are supposed to be public grounds of free speech. It just doesn't matter whether or not they think we're credible religion or not. However, they don't want to touch the free speech issue. And they don't want to talk about religious liberty either, because they'll hear me talking, using the same terminology that they do accept it in a way that speaks to pluralism that speaks to the actual presence of another religious voice. They don't expect that when they open up the public grounds and they say that this is open to religious expression to to close it down for that would be viewpoint discrimination, which I really, which is bullshit, by the way, you can categorically deny religious voices, but you have to do it uniformly right when they say it's it's it's discrimination against religion if you don't allow religion into school. Well, no, we don't allow any religion school. We don't allow perhaps proselytizing in school political debates. We don't allow those kinds of things and you can't do that. But what you can't do is you can't say, okay, the Evangelicals can come in here but the Satanist can't. And, you know, when we come in and actually make that case, and this used to be you know, this was a hypothesis for some 30 years now, people were saying, Well, what about when the other guys come? They never expected it would happen. You know, the Muslims have kind of stood down in the US. The other groups every so often, the Jewish group will come in put in a menorah during Christmas or whatever, and everybody odd themselves and say, Hey, look at us, we're so open minded and so, so benevolent, that, you know, we tolerate other viewpoints. They don't have any inclination to tolerate us they feel they can get away with it circumvent the law. least not now. But with the current disposition of the Supreme Court. We'll see how much longer that last.

Unknown Speaker 20:05 Yeah, the last point scares me the most. I think you just said,

Unknown Speaker 20:11 Oh, it's a we, it's it's hard to predict the future here. But we're, we're in a dire state of affairs. And I'm really troubled by the fact that few people are calling out theocratic nationalism by its name. We still have enough people, you know, willing to shout about fascism and things like that. But, I mean, at the end of the day, I'm not certain that Mike Pence has any affinity for Nazi ism, it doesn't mean what he's doing is any less wrong. He's, he's, he's in a, he's an authoritarian, and he's a theocratic and we need to fight back against that. Regardless of whether he does any of the same things that Hitler did or not, we are the historical precedent to lead us on everything we know what's happening is wrong.

Unknown Speaker 21:00 Sure. And as I've pointed out to Seamus, before, the irony of here in Ireland, Lucien we had our Constitution, almost written by the Archbishop, the Catholic Archbishop of the day. But just when we had two referenda recently introduced gay marriage and abortion rights, when we're kicking Catholicism out of our Constitution, it looks like all the Catholics are moving on the Supreme Court. And so you folks may be holding the other direction.

Unknown Speaker 21:32 Well, it's amazing how quickly power corrupts because the Catholics in the United States already don't realize what a religious minority group they were for a really long time and how a lot of the separation rules that were put in place were meant to keep Catholics out of office, Catholics were treated as second class citizens, you have no recognition of that right now, in regards to the Satanic Temple, we have Catholic groups protesting in the US Route speech, and that we should be relegated to second class citizens, or whatever else. And that's why we feel that it's best that when we have policies in place, that they're operated on principle, not this kind of pick and choose policy. That's always so I mean, that's, that's where corruption comes from. You know, that's why when we talk about free speech, you say, it's not only for only for voices you agree with otherwise, you know, it's meaningless to say you stand for in any way whatsoever. You know, Religious freedom is the same thing. It's not just for the religious opinions you agree with and I think the umbrella of religious freedom needs to protect non believers as well. I don't think we can take religion to just mean anybody who believes in some kind of supernatural deity. Religion needs to also include items of religious opinion, opinion, such as I don't believe in this bullshit, and I'm not going to be held subject to it. That I think is also a form of religious liberty. And I think that and I think that was a general understanding for some time, but theocrats in the United States have been pushing for generations for a coup. And they're they're seeing they're seeing that bee bee being realized now and it is really distressing.

Unknown Speaker 23:29 As far as the the monument issue goes, What's the the latest on that? With putting bathmat up versus the 10 commandments? What's the latest there?

Unknown Speaker 23:42 The the state of Arkansas was trying to delay the case, because they feel that the supreme court's going to give them a precedent in their favor with a public cross that's that the Supreme Court is is hearing about the cross to world woman.

Unknown Speaker 24:05 Everybody goes on about

Unknown Speaker 24:06 Yeah, I think should Brandenburg I'm not sure where that is actually

Unknown Speaker 24:11 I think yeah, Republic, same thing. But yeah, sorry, but

Unknown Speaker 24:14 a lower court. A lower court said the cross need to come down, the Supreme Court decided to hear it and given the way the Supreme Court is now or were disturbed that they decided to hear it. Anyways. The state of Arkansas was trying to delay thinking that precedent, which they think will go their way will help them to keep the 10 commandments standing. We argued saying we don't think so because, you know, it's we're arguing a completely different case. The cross, may they may be able to claim landmark status for given the its historical nature or I mean it by virtue of having been there So long not just that it speaks to something from history. Yeah. But you know that their their 10 commandments doesn't have anything to do with it in plus our case is different. The cross doesn't say anything across case doesn't say anything about other religious monuments going up. So we we objected to that, to that extension or that delay. The The court found in our favor. And now we're, we're submitting for summary judgment. Because we think in summary judgment means you just go to the court with all the facts and say the facts as they are. There's nothing to there's nothing to really discuss here. You know, the, the the uncontested facts being as they are should win the case for us. Yeah. And if we were to do discovery, we could put Senator Jason raper, you know, under scrutiny and ask him questions about the fact of the matter is, we don't need to he's publicly come out so often talking about the religious purpose of the monument in other venues, he won't do that in the courtroom. But he's openly take the pulpit, and videotaped interviews and things like that, where he strongly ruins his own case. And I think we can just attach those as exhibits and a motion for summary judgment. And I really think we have a strong, strong chance of winning the case there and then so that might be happening sooner rather than later.

Unknown Speaker 26:32 And when you're arguing these cases, Lucien, did he ever bump up against other organizations making similar arguments against the Pastafarians or FFRF, and sometimes take First Amendment cases?

Unknown Speaker 26:49 Well, in this case, in Arkansas, we filed an intervener, which means that we were merging our case with other cases put forward by some Free Thoughts society, some other atheist group, I think, and and the ACLU, the ACLU objected to us being in the case, as an intervener. But it's not that that was really the ACLU argument as much as it was their plaintiff. Okay. But we were allowed in with the intervener. So I guess, I mean, we've worked with the ACLU before, I guess they were technically working against us in this case, but I don't think there's any animosity there. Okay.

Unknown Speaker 27:35 But, Sam, I'm really interested by that point you made about the the shift between the left and right, and politics were a guess. It's maybe just one generation ago, it would have been the right pushing back against the ideas that you've just articulated. And but they you you really see people on the right, been more supportive of free speech night. And I mean, in terms of all of the attacks on free speech for the left, one of the tropes I'm sure you've heard before, is, this is just really limited to a few college campuses. But it sounds like you're seeing it, I'd say to college campus.

Unknown Speaker 28:25 You know, I think it's more motivated by the kind of social media dynamics now. But to be fair, I don't believe that the right or the new defenders of free speech, they're full of shit, it's only a matter it's only when it's convenient to either side when I mean, all sides, you have people who just don't understand why things should run on principle or how they should be run on principle

Unknown Speaker 28:49 for Carlson isn't sincere about all?

Unknown Speaker 28:52 I think I know, I think I brought Tucker Carlson face to face with his cognitive dissonance. Like he likes to believe himself, the defender of free speech and religious freedom and things like that he just never considered that people like us would come along. And actually make it mean something. It's easy to be on the side of something on a principle like that when you're only seeing your own point of view suppressed. And like I said, you know, you can say your for free speech, and then and then say, well, that's that's selective, however, to whichever degree I actually agree with what's being said. And I think it's the same on either side. It's just it just dependent on who thinks their voice is being suppressed more. And now there's a real kind of persecution complex with the right, which is kind of it's kind of mystifying, given the given the position they're in right now. You know, you see that also with the, with the evangelical theocrats as well, they're always crying persecution. It's laughable when they do that. In response to devotees of the Satanic Temple were so, so much less well funded than them less well organized, were various groups, very well funded, very well organized, very networked, you know, with direct communication with the executive branch, you know, pushing their agendas forward, and they'll cry. Anytime we asked to put up a little display in a public area next to a Nativity scene, they'll scream that they're, you know, a Christian just can't get a break today or some other bullshit like that. And it's really a war on Christmas. But it would be it would be funny if it weren't for her so horrific, the outcomes

Unknown Speaker 30:38 as far as that, that horrible marriage that we have now between Trump and evangelicals go, have you ever, ever been able to exploit that at all for for you, you know, your benefit, take advantage of that office? Ah, you know, the obvious hypocrisy of those two being entwined in any of your arguments.

Unknown Speaker 30:58 I think everybody's tried to exploit that everybody kind of thought that this would bring everything to a head I mean, how much more openly hypocritical can you get? I mean, you can't possibly do an expo say about this and expect to have reaction everybody knows I just feel that the the theocratic right is embrace their hypocrisy. I you know, under the the the crops, clearly arrogant and ignorant, self serving pussy grabbing president, there's just no nowhere you think you can go with this to just kind of, to kind of put it out in the open and expect to change minds. Now I don't. That's apparently that's not an option. We have to look at other things. And it's kind of left me in the dark in some way. So I'm really confused as to what, what could possibly change some of these people's minds at this point? I've no idea. I mean, they're it's almost like they're a different species to me now that I can't empathize in any way. I've no idea who the Trump voter is. I don't know what, what's going on in their minds.

Unknown Speaker 32:04 You talked about bafflement. And why did you go after Sabrina? The teenage witch, you know, why did you guys feel that was necessary to go after these poor, poor people at Netflix?

Unknown Speaker 32:15 Yeah, that was funny, too, that there was a lot of that kind of reaction as though we were the powerful force in this kind of conglomeration of Warner Brothers and Netflix, you know, innocent bystanders to be victimized by us. But that was an intellectual property claim. And that was kind of a matter of course, they were it was one of those things where something happens where we feel file a claim, and there's nothing more to it than that. The amount of press at that guy was really disappointing to me, because that was a minor issue, something I would have rather just filed, resolved and been done with. And just the the flood of hate mail I got from that was, yeah, a lot people actually making the claim that we have just done that for attention to the, you know, filed this claim. When honestly, like I would have rather not had anything to do with it. I'd read the whole thing hadn't happened. That That one was really a disappointment to me that was that was still kind of lingers with me, I still have this like aftertaste of disgust from that whole affair.

Unknown Speaker 33:22 Oh, my. And you mentioned gray faction earlier, before we had Sarah ponto. Earlier on to talk about gray faction, it was really fascinating. And I do agree that it's probably is something that needs to be out there more in the forefront. But is there been anything on on the spectrum as far as that goes, as far as you know, something new or different things you guys have been attacking on that front?

Unknown Speaker 33:51 Yeah, we're coordinating now with people who've done actual lobbying. And we're trying to find out the better ways to go against organizations like the ISS TV, the International Society for the Study of trauma, dissociation, which is kind of the final refuge of multiple personality disorder theory and these pseudo scientific tactics of memory recovery and things like that. But our problem is that they do these conferences, and they offer continuing education units for people to retain their professional standing. In some of these conferences, they give, they're talking about things like Illuminati mind control, they're still talking about satanic ritual abuse and other completely debunked things that really have no place in anything that has any any professional sanction whatsoever. So we're trying to work on lobbying the APA, the American Psychiatric Association, to take away their ability to offer continuing continuing education units. And we're going to go after the careers of some of the people most men in this field and make sure that Mason says and that they're publicly disgraced and that everybody how many wives they've ruined and what depraved pieces of shit that they are and it lingers with them for the rest of their ignoble lives.

Unknown Speaker 35:09 Awesome. It'd be taken out of Geraldo with that as well, would you?

Unknown Speaker 35:15 Well, he actually changed his tune somewhere around 95. Yeah, he even issued an apology, but it was a little too little too late. He, at some point, became convinced that the whole thing was, was false that recovered memory therapy, treatments were pseudoscience. And he actually did make a statement. But I don't know how people like Oprah continue to get away with it. You had some rumblings here in the US that people wanted her to run for president and yeah, her her fixation with pseudoscience, I think is disastrous, and I think she's been a blight on kind of our, our culture for some time now.

Unknown Speaker 35:58 David Ricardo will first Surgeon General or something like that with her? Right? So yeah,

Unknown Speaker 36:03 you're right. We I wouldn't be surprised.

Unknown Speaker 36:08 Hey, you're still here recovered memory stuff. Around an awful lot. There was a Netflix documentary not too long ago about dem wasn't a lady who was remembering more and more things about being abused by a priest and and the remember that the priest committed some murder or something they got? And that the keepers the keepers, that's right. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 36:32 Yeah, no, no, the keepers was a total lie in the filmmaker, that filmmakers knew it was a lie. They, they had access to the same documents I have access to, and I think we still have to put on gray faction. But in depositions, court documents of the Maskull case, DOE versus maskil, the lady who claimed to have recovered the memory, memories of this murder, she also recovered a bunch of memories, that she injury now it's including, she remembered at some point that she had committed maybe the murder, but at least a murder and then eventually came around to admitting that this and a bunch of other things weren't true. But on this story, they just focused in on that one, you know, and, and now it's really disturbing to me to see people just focus in I mean, we know there's a problem with predators in the Catholic Church. But that doesn't give us an excuse to attack attach the pseudoscience to it and say that it must be true, which is what you often see now happening, you know, they'll they'll find an actual abuser

Unknown Speaker 37:38 or you know, you find out he actually has committed these crimes. And then you have some opportunists like Valerie citizen, another kind of long time, Satanic Panic promoter in the UK, magically comes up with a client who recovered memory be eating well, I kind of think that narrative is bullshit. They, they take the advantage of saying well, you're saying that Savile was innocent you're saying that these things don't happen we already know they happen. You're too late on this one. Yeah. Yeah. And and so they use these really kind of underhanded tactics to kind of still promote their pseudoscience and their bullshit theories and I it distresses me like with the keepers so a lot of people and you know a lot of people who I generally agree with or generally agree with me are all too quick to to jump on this evidence against the Catholics and we can't let ourselves do that either. You know, we have to be cognizant of what is appropriate evidence and what is not

Unknown Speaker 38:44 what the keepers that would use what is the underlined case as far as the abuse totally non existent or the whole story is non existent or were thick there

Unknown Speaker 38:57 was definitely definitely abuse going on. I just I just don't believe for a moment she recovered credible Memories of Murder.

Unknown Speaker 39:04 Okay, I just wanted to clear that up real quick.

Unknown Speaker 39:07 Yeah, you're quite right. Watch the whole thing and then Firstly, it was quite striking hide the whole recovered memory thing was presented on critically and and felt like they just kind of use the church's a soft target you don't you're never going to stand up. You're never gonna find too many people who want to stand up and defend the child abuse your priest kind of thing so a Yeah. Especially just watching it the stories just got less and less credible as the one done and but I was surprised Netflix paradise like. I mean, most of those documentaries would at least present both sides of the story but the the recovered memory side of it was presented and Early on credibly

Unknown Speaker 40:06 suitable for the document Ariens. To to read over that as well, because in the in the trial though dovie mask all the recovered memory testimony was was expunged. They didn't accept it. They didn't expect that it had Stein didn't accept that it had scientific legitimacy. And furthermore, she was not a credible witness, because as I said, she recovered a whole series of memories, many of which had been disproven into the fact that they didn't mention this at all in the documentary was, was unforgivable. But like I said, at the point where you start saying, any part of that narrative is bullshit, your opposition takes the opportunity to say that you're saying that no abuse happened in that, yeah. In that archdiocese, or that convent, or whatever it was they had going on there. And that's simply not the case. It's like, we can't take our desire to even even burn the guilty as as something that makes us take bad science as good precedent because it doesn't take long before somebody, somebody innocent is taking the blame.

Unknown Speaker 41:15 Sure. So I know one thing that me and John, were talking about just before coming on with you was very much this situation as far as Catholic churches. And I think it's fair to say that it happens in Islamic circles, we probably just hear about a less here, abuse of children and so forth, be at this, as you know, been the thing that's been projected on, I guess, on Satanism, or the Satanic Panic and all that. But you, but it never comes down to any real cases, against any Satanists, or Satan worshippers. I mean, obviously, outside of you guys. You know, it just, it just it's amazing that it's such a clear projection on their part.

Unknown Speaker 42:02 One thing the hail satan does is it does actually go through that concept. You know, the concept is floated that this was really projection on the part of the bible thumpers while you know, having some kind of recognition that in the background, they were actually molesting children. And this these fantasies they were having about Satan, this weren't true in the least. But Satanism has usually been a window to look into people's fears in that way, what they, you know, what they're either projecting onto other people because of what they're doing or what their most grotesque fears are, when, when Satanism only exists as is an item of attribution, you know, something you can accuse somebody of whether they have any, any connection to it or not. And you can look through history and kind of see these, these absurd fears people had about the other. And it tells you more about tells you more about them than it does about the people they're supposedly putting the blame upon.

Unknown Speaker 43:12 So I know that the film covers a lot of things like you said, it's not just stuck on the the Bathmate versus the 10, commandments, monuments and all that it pretty much encompasses a lot. But since obviously film wrapped up, I'm sure a long time ago, what current things are you guys lobbying or fighting against? It hasn't been covered that you might want to talk about real quick.

Unknown Speaker 43:39 We have a lot forthcoming and some of that is somewhat dependent on the element of surprise. So yeah, I'll leave it at that and let you guys keep keep a lookout on our, on our Facebook, Twitter feed and website as we have things going on. But we're also really close to rolling out our ordination. courseware doing their work out in the public. And we'll offer this first to our chapter heads and see how, however else we want to vet who becomes a formal part of our of our ministry, but we're also we've been working for a while on an online platform where we're going to have a lot of live streaming of events as they take place in our various chapters or national headquarters in a lot of our archived video material that we're going to put together. And it'll also be kind of a central source for us to have our, our forum groups in and different chapter discussions and things like that. And we're really looking forward to that because we think it'll kind of change the the nature of our entire collaboration and help take it away from terrible venues like Facebook and Twitter. Yes.

Unknown Speaker 44:55 Well, speaking of those online venues I'm just conscious, we can suck up your entire day. But and if people check the bottom of the screen now, the link to your website will be scrolling across there. And I know people can find details there about the organization and the movie. But if people want to stay in touch with you and what you're up to, where's the best place to do that? Does that Twitter or somewhere else?

Unknown Speaker 45:28 Yeah, find me on Twitter, find me on Facebook. And that's about it. The best way to see what I'm up to

Unknown Speaker 45:37 very good Twitter, Facebook, or the ninth circle of hell one of those.

Unknown Speaker 45:42 As a caveat, I will offer though that I am looking forward to both Twitter and Facebook collapsing and dire dying of fire.

Unknown Speaker 45:52 So shall it be?

Unknown Speaker 45:54 Well, a you can, you can certainly offer it and form prediction about where Mark Zuckerberg will end up a list that was a whole lot of fun, and very much appreciate your time, Lucian, and the very best of luck with the movie.

Unknown Speaker 46:14 Yes, I'm always happy to be on any time. It was great talking with you guys.

Unknown Speaker 46:18 Cheers. Thanks again. Thanks for all you do.

Unknown Speaker 46:21 Thank you. All

Unknown Speaker 46:22 right. So and I enjoyed that a lot. Ellucian was as informative as ever. So we're definitely encourage people to check out the trailer. And there's a there's a very funny bed ready to start actually, one of the members of this Satanic Temple is making a speech. And so pass her by hackles, you're going to hell? And he says, say yes, I believe that. And I'm very excited about

Unknown Speaker 47:04 one of the questions I was gonna ask him, but he made it pretty clear, he doesn't care. I think that they just one of the reviews. If I can bring that back up real quick. One of the reviews that they all Yeah, that they've described Lucian as a, that the Satanic Temple is led by activists, prankster in chief, it's a great title, who gets called, who gets called that? That's awesome prankster inchie apply

Unknown Speaker 47:34 for that title. I think it struck me most was, again, you guys don't appreciate the value of your establishment clause. So I think we've talked before and we'll talk again about some of our Pastafarian activities. And in Ireland, that will apply if you litigate any of those issues, that will imply an argument about his past a fairy anism, or religion, or a philosophy or a parody. And in order to have protection under the law, you need to establish that it's a religion. And you have this bunch of hoops to jump through to do that, legally and Ireland, which are a bit ridiculous. So one of the examples was that there's a ruling from one of the cases where the adjudicator said no, you're wearing a colander in your head and that's a bit silly. And so it literally the the Irish legalism legal system says, I don't like your heart. Therefore, you don't have protections that everyone else does. And I would just be so nice to have the position that Lucien described, which is I don't give a fuck, what do you think about my beliefs? I don't have to justify them to you. I don't have to explain them to you. You just can't discriminated against me because you don't like what I believe. And you just don't have to go through that bullshit that we do you hear by trying to describe his pasta for anism par with Catholicism or shit like that. You know, just to be able to say, you know, when someone asks, Is it a religion or is it not to say I don't give a fuck? What do you think it is? It doesn't matter. You're still not allowed to treat me less well than this older dude.

Unknown Speaker 49:36 Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a you know, fortunately,

Unknown Speaker 49:41 you know, why why should that and target the content of your beliefs, you know,

Unknown Speaker 49:46 so Well, maybe that's what needs a beautiful. Yeah. That Ireland.

Unknown Speaker 49:54 Yeah, so

Unknown Speaker 49:56 it's almost like an Ireland GMs people need to recognize the freedom of thought, hey,

Unknown Speaker 50:03 yeah, that's it. So

Unknown Speaker 50:06 we get to listen to?

Unknown Speaker 50:07 I don't know, I don't know. So, I don't know. I'm sure something will happen very soon that will hint that to what direction or where things could go for such things in Ireland. Let's leave it at that. So hopefully won't be a Satanic Temple, unfortunately. But I think some noodles will apply. So, yeah, so, okay, that was really lame, but I do on my part, not yours, John. So, but thanks again, Lucian graves for being on again. And hopefully we'll have him on again very soon to talk about another victory that he's, he's made for all of us. So good luck to him. And also that's it. Yeah, I got check the movie, I believe, April 19. I think that's really although I guess is a limited release. So you have to kind of really look for where that's going to be near you. Also, look through our archives for the episode on gray faction with Sarah ponto. Rivera Absolutely. pronounced her name right. She could hit me if I didn't. So, but you'll get a better idea what we're talking about the gray faction although Lucian did play it out pretty well but still worth listening to. It. Definitely. Probably one of the better causes that they're behind. So but anyways folks, that's it that's all the show. That's all we got. Soups done. So remember to hit hit us up where you can you've already been told but as far as Twitter, we are separate but equal. You'll find John Hamill at John Hamill. At sorry at John Hamill 151 You'll find Seamus at the FT profit in it. Oh geez, I'm gonna get through this episode of kills me. Remember it. So next time. Don't forget the freedom of thought can only give it away, not take it away by everybody else in it folks, we want to keep up with what's going on with the free thought profit.com be sure to subscribe to us on YouTube, click the subscribe button and also little bell so you can get your notifications of upcoming episodes. You can also see all of our archived episodes there as well. Also on pod beam, you can listen to us audio only, of course, you could also check out all the previous episodes and blogs there as well. And you could hear us via iTunes as well. The Free Thought profit com has all these as well as previous books and other materials for your viewing pleasure. So please keep up with us in the future. Thanks again for all your support.