Podcasts/Sacred Tension-STRoeVWade

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STRoeVWade SUMMARY KEYWORDS people, states, talk, ectopic pregnancy, fight, abortion, short term, enemy, impact, pregnancy, internet, put, year old girl, laws, happen, long term, peace, fertilized egg, purity, long SPEAKERS Stephen Bradford Long, Chalice Blythe

Stephen Bradford Long 00:00 You're listening to a rock candy podcast this is sacred tension, the podcast about the discipline of asking questions. My name is Steven Bradford long. We are here on the rock candy Podcast Network. For more shows like this one, go to rock candy recordings.com All right. As always, I have to thank my patrons. For this week. I have to thank and hold on. I was not I was not a good boy scout and adequately prepared for this just a second. Let me find my list. So for this week, I have to thank NAT Ward, f v. Elizabeth Washburn, Nixie Lionheart, Diane Koch Neff, and Patricia Moreno, thank you so much. I truly could not do the show without you. You are funding my debilitating content creation addiction. And this show really is a one man show. I do all of the editing, all of the interviewing all of the booking all of the recording. But I believe in the work I do, but in order to do it, I need your help. And every little bit helps for just $1 a month, you get extra content every single week. All right, Chalice Blythe, welcome back.

Chalice Blythe 01:31 Thank you for having me back.

Stephen Bradford Long 01:33 So my mouth is very numb. I don't know if the audience could tell through that introduction. I'm eating a popsicle. And popsicles are just unbelievably awkward on Zoom, because there's no way to eat a popsicle on Zoom without it looking like I'm sucking a dick. So I am sorry.

Chalice Blythe 01:49 Oh, don't be sorry. I'm actually very sorry for your listeners that they don't get to watch the show that I get. Not even your patrons get it?

Stephen Bradford Long 02:00 Not even my patrons get to see this. Only you.

Chalice Blythe 02:04 Yes, thank you are the gift that keeps on giving.

Stephen Bradford Long 02:07 I'm so glad you're welcome. Maybe I should start an only fans. Okay, so here we are. We had a conversation of a few weeks ago, when the news broke that Roe v Wade was going to be overturned. And now here we are. And it has been overturned. And how did it hit you when when it finally happened?

Chalice Blythe 02:33 I think so, interestingly enough, I had the impending doom feeling had made me want to kind of get out of town for a night. And so without realizing because we thought we were going to hear the news on a Thursday, we thought they were going to be and it's funny enough, we were getting media requests for, I guess, live first reactions to the announcement of the robo ruling on a Thursday. And I kind of anticipated that I would have needed the next day to get out of town and just disconnect for a while. So I had made arrangements to do an overnight somewhere out in the middle of nowhere. And so Thursday came and went and it wasn't announced. And so when it was announced on Friday the nice thing was is I feel like we were already prepared considering the leak and so we had the ability to acclimate. But I think the acclamation really wasn't the, the actual reality, the finality of it, that's it really hit that day. So I'm glad I had the opportunity to go away and be away from my phone and from the Doom scrolling in from everything like that for that night because it was very overwhelming. And you know, due to trigger laws, I mean, even just the next day that that Saturday, we were already seeing those things go into effect in it already impacting people trying to obtain reproductive health care. So it was it was immediate. The things that we were talking about as this is gonna these are the things that are going to happen within a matter of 24 hours. They were already a reality. So it's horrible. Yeah, it really is horrifying and you know, I have a lot you know, where I work in the medical field. So I kind of keep tabs on other health professionals that I know that actually work in this, you know, work in the field, you know, OBGYN, abortion providers, those kinds of things. emergency doctors, Emergency Nurses, um, And the stories that I've been hearing, not only just kind of around the internet, but also from, you know, some of my friends have been, you know, the worst nightmare made may come true because this isn't just, this isn't just impacting people that you know want to terminate a pregnancy. This is impacting people who have a very much wanted pregnancy, but because biology is how it is whether it's an ectopic pregnancy, or there's a severe fetal abnormality or whatever the case may be, these people are now put in situations where they have to be. So for example, for ectopic pregnancies, what we're seeing is people have

Stephen Bradford Long 05:45 for people who don't know what an ectopic pregnancy is, could you tell me what that because they're going to be a lot of people in the audience who don't even know what the fuck this is?

Chalice Blythe 05:56 Oh, sure. So an ectopic pregnancy is when a egg is fertilized by a sperm. And usually the process happens in and around the fallopian tube. And the normal process is that that fertilized egg makes its way into the uterus and attaches itself to the uterus, and then they're in then, you know, then it starts forming, you know, growing, you know, the placenta is sent to forms and then, you know, Francie goes from there. But with an ectopic pregnancy pregnancy, the fertilized egg decides to stay put in the fallopian tube. And that pregnancy is not viable meaning once it once it implants into the fallopian tube, there's absolutely no way that pregnancy could ever be viable, that that egg is not going to be able to turn into a viable pregnancy. And so as the as the egg rolls within the fallopian tube, eventually what will happen is it will rupture, and it will cause internal hemorrhaging, and hemorrhaging is bleeding. And if you do not, so if you do not remove that ectopic pregnancy before then you're then put in a situation where and what people are in the situation now in various states, is that ectopic pregnancy has to rupture. And the patient has to start losing lots and lots of blood due to internal hemorrhaging. And they have to be on the cusp of, of death, essentially, prior to any medical intervention, being able to be half or

Stephen Bradford Long 07:41 a four, just to be clear. For a pregnancy, that was never viable. It was never viable. And yet at the beginning, in the from the beginning, it was never viable. So this is just putting people through unneeded torture through through medieval levels of torture just for being human just for the way the human body works.

Chalice Blythe 08:06 Yeah, and, and you know, there's there are these, these idiotic lawmakers who have it in their head for some reason that ectopic pregnancies can be reimplanted, it's actually I can't remember which state it is, but one state has in their law that the the doctors have to, they have to try to re implant into the uterus, the fertilized egg, as opposed to doing what you would do in any ectopic pregnancy situation, which is the best possible care you could give a patient is to perform to perform the abortion. And yeah, this this myth of reimplantation of an egg, I don't know where it started, but it's just not medically possible. It is not something that has ever existed is not something that you know, very likely will ever exist, you know, that that egg that there's just no way that egg is ever going to become a viable pregnancy. But because of these lawmakers that have it, you know, because of their beliefs that you know, life begins at conception, meaning you know, life begins or not in Yeah, Life begins at an egg being fertilized. They view any disruption of that egg whether that be through abortion, or what happens in a lot of cases that people don't talk about a lot or enough is that you know, you could have a fertilized egg and it simply just doesn't implant it doesn't you know, it makes its way into the uterus but it doesn't implant and so you would just expel it through a normal period. This happens all the time for anybody for anybody with a uterus who you know is engaging in sexual activity with you know, anybody who produces sperm you know, you could you know, on the regular you know, even if you're even if you're on birth control, anything like that, You know, there are there is a possibility of there being a fertilized egg, and it simply just doesn't attach. And it just, it just goes out with your period, your normal menstrual cycle. And you know, you wouldn't know you wouldn't know. But you know, it's the what these laws are going to do is it's not only punishing people who are already in a medical crisis, it's not only punishing people who are in a situation where, you know, maybe maybe it's a very much wanted pregnancy. And then biology does what biology does, and they're left to suffer, you know, more, after you've been told that, you know, their pregnancy is not viable for whatever reason. It I mean, I don't know, I don't know how far they're planning on taking it, you know, especially if, you know, they, they consider a fertilized egg a life and the person unable or unwilling to carry that pregnancy to term in any way, shape, or form, whether knowingly or unknowingly. In the case of a, you know, normal menstrual cycle, you know, they want to make them criminals, there's talk of there being the states deciding to charge pregnant people with felonies, if they if they decide to terminate their pregnancy, there's talk of not allowing them to go across state lines without verifying they're not pregnant. You know, there's a lot of talk of all these things that now that they've now that they've gotten now that the states are able to determine how they want to treat this topic there. There's nothing on the federal side that is saying that they can't do it, there's nothing stopping them. So this is just the start of, of, you know, misinformed religious zealots, you know, creating laws, that it's not going to stop them from obtaining abortions, you know, it's not going to stop them, it's not going to stop the people they're having sexual relations with, it's not going to stop the people in their lives who are in need of that, because they're always going to be able and they're always going to have the ability to go somewhere where it is legal. You know, these these laws do not apply to them it is it is merely a way to punish other people of whom they feel need to adhere to their their values that they don't take all that seriously. Anyway. So yeah, it's, it's an absolute nightmare. And then you have and then you have other states that don't make exceptions for rape or incest. A very, I believe it was in Ohio, there was a 10 year old girl who was a victim of of incestuous right. And the she was not able to obtain an abortion, this state denied it. So she a 10 year old girl, not only has to live with the fact that she may be going to school and getting shot up. But you know, now she's, she's got to carry that carry that to term. And I'm assuming, based off of how all states work, generally speaking, with the services and the support systems that they they fail to implement, given that they have these archaic laws put into place, there's going to be no support for the baby that's born, there's not going to be no support for the baby that's carrying the baby. There's going to be no, you know, adoptions probably not going to be a viable option. Um, yeah, it's just it. Yeah, it's, um, it's an absolute nightmare. It's an absolute nightmare we're living in right now. And, you know, obviously, with the with Roe, we're not we're not only talking about abortion, we are talking about the right to privacy, the right to medical privacy, and, you know, and privacy in general. So, I know, the Supreme Court justices have indicated that there's other fundamental laws or rulings that they want to revisit that speak on the topic of, of, you know, same sex marriage. You know, things like that. So it's contraception, contraception. So, yeah, it's, it's, I mean, they've, you know, they're just, they're just not going to stop. I don't think, you know, it's, it's just going to be downhill from there. And the states are the states that we know being, you know, what they are, they're some that are that are, you know, going through the motions of making sure that these rights are made more strong in their state constitution. I know, I know. Things are being put on the ballot here in Arizona, there's there's a petition to get the right to abortion put in the state constitution to be voted on in November. And I know certain states like California, they've got something that they're going to be putting on the ballot and you know, in places like New York City area, New York, they've already got it written into the state constitution. So, you know, you're going to have these these states that are Affirmative, or are affirming people's right to their reproductive health. And those are going to be places that are not going to comply with the other states, you are going to try and make make a criminal case of somebody going into that state to seek reproductive health care. But I mean, the problem is, is that, you know, they're they're going to be, they are going to be safe havens for their for the citizens of that state. But just because that's the case for them, it doesn't mean that they can necessarily be a safe haven for others, because travel is expensive. You know, resources are limited. There are so many there's so many ways in which the states that the restrictive states can make it absolutely impossible for those in the most dire need to make sure that you know, they are not able to get to get that care. So um, yeah, it's it's, it's all it's all layers of fucked up.

Stephen Bradford Long 16:02 It is it is. And, you know, big picture, I long term. And it feels almost obscene to talk about this, because the immediate suffering is so real. And long term, I can see this creating further patterns in our body in our body politic of that can just rip the country apart immigration patterns over decades, for example, that that just within the within the United States, between states that can just you know, over time over the course of years and years and years, that could just like tear the body politic apart. And so no, there's a lot to worry about. And lest we forget that the Supreme Court did a bunch of other fuckery as well. They removed a lot of protections for the environment, mandated that taxpayers should pay for Christian schools, I believe, a lot of terrifying shit. So now, the and as you were talking, I was looking up I was I was Googling all of the instances like the 10 year old girl. Snopes has an article up about that, and just how like, swiftly this went into action. The impact was, quote on quote, the impact was swift according to several news outlets. For example, Ohio's new abortion ban forced a 10 year old girl who had gotten pregnant by rape to travel to her neighboring state of Indiana where abortion remains legal. And then also new. You were talking about ectopic pregnancies. New Oh, so this is from a Cleveland Clinic. It this is from a clinic in Ohio, New Ohio Bill falsely suggests that reimplantation of ectopic pregnancy as possible. Yeah, I mean, and that was in 2000. So these laws have been kind of waiting in the waiting for this to happen. And so now the question becomes, well, what the fuck do we do? Now? There's a lot of talk online and on social media about ways to help people get access to reproductive health care now, in these specific states, what are you? What are your thoughts on a lot of what's been going around on the internet lately about how to respond and help? And I know that that's a broad question.

Chalice Blythe 18:40 But yeah, so generally speaking, I think the reactions overall have been what can we do now. And a lot of the reactions have been well intentioned, but not all of them have been very well thought out. And the reason I say that is because there are certain things that there are certain things one can do to help those who are in need, that could actually be of you know, could actually help them and not put them in more danger, especially considering we're still seeing all these trigger laws come into effect. And more laws are going to happen where just because it's not a law in your state, doesn't mean it's not going to be a law that the person who's trying to get help isn't going to be subjected to you know, whether or not they're successful and getting the health care. Once they go back to their life in the state where there's you know, more horrendous laws. There are things that they'll be subjected to because that is just how forever that the state is and in punishing people that they deem immoral for daring to not live by their their morals and stuff like that by You know, spreading their legs, so to speak, whether that was forcibly or not. So for example, I've seen a lot of commentary online, about, let's go camping I've seen I've seen that yeah, that's

Stephen Bradford Long 20:14 the one that I've seen too, a lot of the camping and they're cute. I, I like the meme. Because there's, there's sort of this ironic hilarity to it, however,

Chalice Blythe 20:27 but the problem is, you just, you've just announced to the world and you've put it all over social media, and you've probably attached it to your IP address and your own personal information, that you are somebody who could potentially be harboring somebody for those purposes, and you're indicating to the world that anybody seen with you is potentially somebody who's trying to get that care, that is considered illegal in certain states. And so you are now a hazard to anybody seeking care or seeking help from you. So it's, it's a problem when one, well intentioned people don't first try to look and see who's already doing the work that is protected, and has been around for a long time they know what they're doing. And you know, they can provide those resources and you could potentially be a part of that network that can can help people so reactive with good intentions, but reactionary things tend to have bad consequences, you know, especially when it comes to long term. And so what I would advise people to do is, if you are intending to provide resources, or help, don't advertise it on the fucking internet, you know, because it's so easily could put yourself whether or not you care about the rest of yourself, but it's going to put the risk onto the people reaching out to you for that help. And I actually think it'd be really great if you had Minister Caracas sorta on your podcast to talk about online privacy, because he just did an interview with Robert Evans, from you know, behind the bastards, phenomenal, phenomenal guy. And they talked about this, they essentially talked about, you know, even when you've got burner phones, even when you've got these things, there is still a way to access data connecting either, you know, people to you or even yourself to yourself. And so I think it would be really great if you had him on to talk about, you know, one of the reasons why a lot of the networks that a lot of the networks that are currently in operation are good at what they do is because, you know, they're not, they're not advertising shit on the internet that are smart, they know how digital footprints work, and they understand how, you know, certain things can't be done, or things have to be done in a certain way to not only protect yourself and continue, and being able to continue the work that you do, but also protect the people needing your help. And so, yeah, if people want to have that information ahead of time before you can potentially have them on your show, you can just look up it could happen here, I think is the podcast he was on with Robert Evans, and it's just caucus artha they talk about they talk specifically about this issue. And so yeah, generally speaking, I think that if people want to help people now in the now invest in in the networks that are able to do that the ones that know what they're doing, and the ones that can help and there are probably ways in which if you reach out to those networks, you could find a way to be a part of that network and they'll give you all of that information and they'll give you all the tools so that you can be a part of that but just don't set shit up or don't ask you know tell people they can come camping with you because one the people unfortunately unfortunately the people who are most interested in making us criminals or you know people that don't no longer have any rights whatsoever. They're not as they're not as dumb as we think they are even though we think they're fucking stupid, but they're not that dumb. And so I bet you anything they're already looking for keywords they're already going through your data if you are if you are connected to social media in any way, shape, or form, that data is being sold to somebody and it's being sold. It's it's being shared and what even even if even all your well intentions, everything, you know, if it comes from a good place, that's fine, but I Have you are, you know, you're already targeted and and all of your activities always going to be suspect. So depending on how the laws go in certain states as far as how how far they're going to go to keep the people of that state from obtaining reproductive health care, you know, maybe maybe certain states will hand over that information, you know, or whatever the case may be, it's just, it's hard to, it's hard to say, but we know it's coming, because, you know, the lawmakers already talking about it. So yeah, you know, if you want to help now, You know, contribute, assist in the networks that are able to help now, and find a way I guess, to be a part of those networks, if you're really if you feel really strongly about wanting to like actually help, you know, outside of just don't donating money. Or, you know, if donating money, or, you know, or just being able to spread awareness about things is is what you're able capable of doing, then, you know, find out your local, the local funds that are in your area, or if maybe, or if maybe there's a state hit particularly hard, like, let's say, Texas, you know, Texas does have existing funds and networks that are working really hard to protect those people. So if you live in a state, let's say that's, you know, not going to be terribly affected, you know, maybe like New York or California or, you know, those states, you know, maybe donate to a fund in like the most hard impacted, state, you know, those funds, those networks, you know, that that would be a really great way. And then if you if, you know, people make sure that you can, you know, provide that information, if they're looking, do it through VPN, protect your data, you know, again, would be really great. If you had Carl on he could go over all the specifics, you know, really detailed, but, you know, yeah, protect your data, first and foremost, invest in VPNs, invest in encrypted messaging, like, you know, you know, there's certain apps where you can do that, so invest in those things. And, um, you know, and then start and then and then start doing that, you know, if marching is your method, then I'm sure we're going to be seeing a lot of those in perpetuity. But, um, yeah, but, again, don't tell the Internet, what you're doing like that. I think that I think that's the number one rule of effective ways to continue being able to resist and be able to continue providing support for those who are most impacted. Rule number one, don't fucking tell everybody or give the tools to the state that is going to use those use that evidence against you. Do not give them do not give them the the, the information to use against you for that. Post on your Twitter post on your Facebook. You know, the internet does not need to know what you're doing. And the internet does not need to validate you and what you're doing, you know, validate yourself and your own ethics and your own morals by just doing the work and doing it in a way that isn't going to put other people in harm's way.

Stephen Bradford Long 28:26 I'm looking at some of these memes. One person on tick tock said camping is legal in Florida. If you need a place to recover support while camping, I'm here to help. And then someone if you live in Texas, someone else. If you live in Texas and need a ride to go camping, I got this truck I paid too much for and I think you'd look great in the passenger seat. Another tick tock user said so a quote from this article though this is on the guardian. It isn't a code word, if you tell everyone what that code word means, which is what this is. And you know, I get it, I get the need. I get the impulse I do I really do. I get the impulse to do a lot of our activism online because that's where so many of us live. The problem is that if we want to affect change, it has to be beyond just the internet. It has to it has to be in meatspace we have to touch grass. And we have to do that activism in meatspace and be more careful about how we communicate online.

Chalice Blythe 29:34 Yeah, the the foundations for any any effective organization, grassroots whatever are the people you don't hear about. And so it's the work you don't see. And I think that is kind of the thing that people need to remember is that the work that is not seen or praised or subjected to catchy, catchy headlines and applaud from the general internet. That's that's the stuff that is never seen. It's the nitty gritty, it's the it's the boring, it's the it's the taxing I mean, it's, it's really, it's the unappreciated work that is probably some of the most frustrating work to do. But it's the stuff that gets the most done. And, you know, and it's yeah. So when it when it comes to what you can do, what you can do is, you know, be smart, and do do it smart, do it effectively, and make sure that you are not doing things that are putting those people seeking you out at risk, because then you're not only taking yourself out, and you know what one of the other things too is, you know, effective ally ship or effective support is the ability to continue doing it is the ability to be a place of stability of support, and being able to continue doing that. And you're in your in that also helps a numbers and you're not doing yourself any favors, you're not doing your activism, any favors, you're not doing the people in need of your help any favors by you know, maybe doing it the one time getting caught and getting taken out. And then therefore that's one less that's one less, you know, resource that's one less source of support, that's one less person to help make the work happen. And so, you know, it might feel good, you know, in the in the short term, but in the long term, you fucked your cause.

Stephen Bradford Long 31:38 You know, there's there's another angle to that as well. And so I not having a uterus I'm a bit I am. I am gay. So I am a bit downstream from this from from, oh, they're

Chalice Blythe 31:54 coming for you.

Stephen Bradford Long 31:55 They are coming for me. They are they are they're coming for all of us. Yeah, they're coming from us right now. I'm I am a bit downstream from it. And I the thing that continually comes to my mind, and I do have an article coming out about this, that it will have come out by the time this this podcast airs. But I've been thinking a lot about a quote from the great Trappist monk, Thomas Merton, who is kind of a contemplative mystic. And what he says is, if you yourself have peace, then at least there is peace somewhere in the world. And so for people who have the ability to have that peace, who are not pressed up against this issue, and really horrifying ways, for those of us who can keep who can keep a solid foundation and be at peace, then we can provide that stability and peace to others because us making others do emotional labor by consoling us by console. And by us. I mean, people who don't have universities, this is mostly to this is mostly to, to people who don't have childbearing potential, right? We we are of no use if we are just collapsing on our fainting couches. And so it's like, yes, it's scary. It's, it's hard, but the best thing we can do is to maintain to maintain a sense of well being and consistency and presence so that the people who are really, really suffering as a result of this can actually gain some some peace from our presence, and instead of having to consult us, instead of because we're collapsing on our fainting couches, so that's, that's the thing that I have been returning to. So there's, I think there's that angle to it as well. It's like don't jeopardize your ability to serve others by telling the internet what you're doing, but also don't jeopardize your ability to serve others by by swooning onto your fainting couch. And I by this, in this regard, I'm speaking specifically to people like myself who aren't immediately impacted by this, it's still scary, but we are not the immediate targets and it is our job to maintain a bit of well being and peace and not fall down a a, you know, toxic Doom scrolly rabbit hole, because then that disables us from being able to to that that disables us from from offering any kind of presence or solidarity to others.

Chalice Blythe 34:59 Yeah. Sure, and it's just, yeah, one less one less.

Stephen Bradford Long 35:04 I was gonna say it a certain way. And then I realized I didn't want to say it that way. You could say you could say it that way.

Chalice Blythe 35:10 I mean, I guess it's it. You know, it's one less soldier to fight fight.

Stephen Bradford Long 35:14 Yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah. I mean, that's, I think that's accurate. I think that's true. And and I mean, here's the thing, I'm also realizing that the way that all of that just came out can sound very, like, you know, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, you know, get over it, deal with it. That's not, that's not what I mean, you know, we can, we can feel fear, we can feel we can feel uncertainty, but we're in this for the long haul. And we need to, we need to be able to maintain consistency and wellbeing and peace for those of us who are able to, and we do that for so that, you know, for the others who who can't, you know, for the others who who are, you know, like that little 10 year old girl who was raped or like anyone of childbearing potential in any of these states? Yeah, it's

Chalice Blythe 36:07 basically looking at it from a point of view of having a short term and a long term. And I think you can have both. And, you know, having having a plan for both and making sure that your short term doesn't impact your long term. When it comes to me basically criticizing people for posting about camping on the internet. I think that's kind of why why I think it's so detrimental and why I would really discourage people from doing that, even though it's, it's, you know, it makes us feel good in the moment. And you know, it's a fun meme. Like, I remember seeing it for the first time, like on Tik Tok. And I was like, oh, that's clever. I like that. But, you know, it was one of those things where then after the momentary, just like, Oh, that's cute. That's, you know, all right. Um, it then became very clear that, you know, it's like, the reason why these things are not effective. And I think the reason why social media makes it so much harder for people to effectively do things for those who are being assaulted by by theocracy, is that they keep posting it on the goddamn internet. You know, they're they're making, there's no more codewords anymore. They're just saying, This is what I'm doing. You know, I mean, these are the, you know, these are the kind of things where it's like, do you think that you know, back, you know, back before Roe, I mean, there's this great documentary on HBO called the Jas and it talks about the basically the underground network of women that were helping others be able to obtain abortions because they was very illegal, but they were able to create an establish a network, where people could find that service and, you know, get it from people that kind of knew what they were doing. Some of them not so much. But, um, you know, essentially, that service was made available, and it went under the radar for a very long time. And they did eventually get caught in the people who were caught and arrested and at charges laid against them. Eventually, those charges dropped because Roe v Wade, then got then became, you know, got ruled on so, you know, eventually they were let go and, you know, let bygones be bygones. But, um, you know, one of the reasons that they did not get caught for the longest time is because they weren't on social media posting about what they were doing, and they weren't making themselves easy targets, you know, by, by doing stuff like that. So again, so if you think about it, if you put yourself in that situation, so you know, thing that happened, think about all of the people that they helped, that they wouldn't have been able to help because they decided to advertise to the world, this is what they were doing. And, you know, you're you're taking yourself out of the fight, you're, you're short term feel good. I'm here for you, you know, come camping with me, you know, here's where I live, you know, I am a resource to you, please reach out to me, blah, blah, blah, that thing that feels so good in the short term, and you know, makes it seem like there's a little bit of light. It, it does nothing for your long term. It doesn't help those people and it doesn't help you be a source for the people that are going to happen along the way. Because the thing is, is that this is this is no longer this is no longer a hypothetical. This is our reality. And the reality of this is that this is going to take a very long time to try to get back to where we were and we may never get back to where we were I mean, who the fuck knows I mean, it's it's hard to say but but what what we do know to be true It is that the impact of this ruling and the impact of the laws that are being put into place to make this reality, even worse, it is going to take a very long time for us to fight against it, and hopefully, in overturn it. So, again, why if you really want to, if you really want to help affect change, if you really want to help people, why take yourself out of the fight in the very beginning, you know, so again, that's why, you know, be be vocal about your support, and be vocal about where you stand. You know, do that all day long. But when it comes to assisting people, when it comes to being an actual resource of those who are in need, that's when you, that's when you go dark. And that's when you either smartly establish a network, or you become a part of a network that currently exists that already knows what it's doing and can help you be that. And you know, you donate your money. You know, get involved with a network, create your own network in a very smart way, you know, let let people who've been doing this for a while, let you know how it's done. And now it's done effectively. And do it under the radar, be in the dark, protect yourself. And by protecting yourself, you are protecting the many, many people who are going to come along the way that are going to need that help, you know, just it's be smart about it. Think about it. In the terms of the long run.

Stephen Bradford Long 41:38 I feel like the Internet has in our lives on the internet has really put I so like how you framed that the short term and the long term. And it feels like our lives on the internet has really put those two things in odds with each other. And yeah, one of the things that I think it's really helpful to be reminded of is very often, what feels great in the short term works against us in the long term. Yeah, and to and that isn't a hard and fast rule. I mean, that isn't true all of the time. But,

Chalice Blythe 42:15 I mean, you can have two things, you can have two things at once. I mean, you literally Yeah, you can have you can have a short term and a long term. And you can have both, but it's it's how you go about the short term that you know that has that impact on that long term.

Stephen Bradford Long 42:30 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And, you know, the, there's so much activism that I see, and not just in this space, but in other spaces that I'm really connected to, like LGBT activism. Yeah, um, or activism for the separation of church and state or whatever that I see online in particular, and I'm just like, do we want to feel good? Or do we want to win? Because those can be right, those are two different goals. Those are actually two different things feel, feel goods? Good feels, and winning, are added those actually require very often not always, but very often a completely different decision tree. Well, yeah, at least in my experience,

Chalice Blythe 43:24 well, in my experience, and what I what I've seen, you know, and I have I have the amazing fortune of having a partner who's a historian and I'm constantly you know, picking out his brain about these things because you know, yes,

Stephen Bradford Long 43:41 yes, he's been on the show everyone go listen to the psychopathy and compassion episode decks is incredible. He is our colleague, and he is

Chalice Blythe 43:51 Yeah, and the love of my life but um, you know, but he also is a historian by trade and a lot of the a lot of conversations we've been having, you know, well before this, but also a lot because of this is, you know, what, have, you know, what are the what are the common threads? What are the things that is always been the downfall of those who've been trying to do the right thing, and they just never could accomplish? You know, I asked a lot of questions. I'm like, How the fuck did Hitler get where he was, you know, things like that, like, how do these terrible things happen? And we know there was resistance, why, you know, Why were those not effective? And, you know, something that he says says to me quite often is, you know, when first van be right, and and the logic behind that is when you have when you have these when you're looking at the nightmare hellscape that we live in right now. This was a this was a collaborative effort that took decades, right. It took decades to get to where we are now. And the people responsible for it spent decades working with enemies compromising thing, going against their own morals and values doing all of these things, because they because they had this one clear goal, they had this one, it was the the ultimate prize, they had this ultimate prize that they were trying to obtain. And in the, in the course of that, there was, there was all of the Yeah, there was a lot that, you know, those groups, you know, had to had to do to get to that point. And we've seen that, that has become that that's effective. That's how that's how people fuck everything up for everybody else. But so then you have the other side that has been so concerned about, you know, constantly being, you know, the moral superiority even though you know, I think that, you know, even though it is right, even it is the, you know, even the moral superiority. The problem is, is that, you know, there's so much infighting and there's, there's so much concerted effort to find the find the evil within and a lot of times doesn't even exist, but finding the evil within that there's, you know, it just, it then becomes you're fighting yourself instead of instead of the enemy who is effectively, you know, working towards oppressing you, that is really kind of at the heart of, you know, if we're, if we're really determined to turn this around. And if we are determined to fight to get our basic human rights back, we need to stop trying to make enemies amongst ourselves, what they need to stop doing is losing focus, by getting distracted by all the infighting the small fights, the petty things that happens within and trying to one up the other trying to basically one up your comrade, and into how morally superior you are. And, and just put those things aside. Even if you know, like, you don't have to agree on everything with the person you're fighting the fight with. But as long as you're fighting that fight, and at the end of the day, you you accomplish that you win the battle. That's all that matters. So you know, it's do everything you can do to win. And then be right, you know,

Stephen Bradford Long 47:24 people. People hate this so much i and but everything you're saying is absolutely correct. Compromise is the only way and correct compra I mean, you know, why is compromise? Correct? Tasha compromise, right? So people hear that and they say, you want me to compromise with the enemy? And I'm like, look, listen, someone an enemy? Well, here's the thing, someone who is, you know, a leftist will say, what you want me to compromise with my enemy? And the enemy is like a liberal.

Chalice Blythe 47:59 Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Stephen Bradford Long 48:02 And, and that, that's the kind of thing or you know, in the enemy, you know, or someone's a communist and the enemy is a Social Democrat, we are always more concerned about the near enemy. We are always more concerned about the near enemy. And we and this has a long history in the left. I mean, always, we have always had these problems. This is not new at all, you know, this goes back decades and decades and decades. But you know, the right and I know, we talked about this in our previous conversation, the right falls into fucking line, when, when they have this goal. And, you know, the the left however, does not. And actually, I just read a fantastic article recently. I will send it to you. After this, you might find it interesting in the intercept, by Ryan Grim, and he's talking about how major progressive nonprofits have basically been stalled over the past few years by massive, massive, massive infighting and how this is actually kind of a serious threat. The Sierra Club, the Sierra Club, one of the premier, you know, one of one of the flagship climate change activist groups in the United States. I mean, they are, they are really important have historically been really important for climate change activism. They were immobilized over the past few years, because of this internal division of purity tests, and so on and so forth. And the end guess what the end result is? Well then, you know, legislatures in the Senate or in while we're all backstabbing each other, they are going to burn down the fucking planet. And so I will say That article to you, but it's a real problem. And yeah, yeah, to get over it.

Chalice Blythe 50:05 Yeah, well, and again, is taking yourself out of the fight. So it's, you know, when you engage in basically these purity spirals, you know, again, you are so you, you are thinking so in short term, that the consequence of that is that you that you lose your grounding, you lose your ability to do anything, you know, because you were so hyper focused on feeling good in the short term about, you know, whether it's moral superiority, or whatever the case may be, that you lost sight of, what is the end goal? And how do we achieve it? And, yeah, you take yourself out of the fight. And yeah, this is not new, like, there are so many, you know, progressive communities, so many progressive organizations that have happened, that they are no longer able to function and do good things and be able to be a part of the toolkit for us to fix the shit because, you know, they engaged in in that kind of behavior, you know, they were so focused on, you know, finding the enemy within and and when we say enemy within, we're not, we're not talking about they found the crypto fascist, and they had to boot them out. That's not what's happening there, you know, that they're having these ideological arguments that are so that are so non nonsensical, they're not, you know, they're not, they're not actually highlighting the bad things of the pursuit of the quote unquote, enemy that they're trying to, you know, reign over or get kicked out. You know, sometimes it's as petty is kind of like what you said, like, you know, I'm a communist and euro and your democratic socialist, exactly. The kinds of things that we see tear organizations apart.

Stephen Bradford Long 51:54 I'm watching, I've watched it tear online, socialist communities apart. Yeah. And I mean, it's, it's fucking wild. And so I guess, to recap, I think the big theme of this conversation is don't take yourself out of the fight. And we're in this fight for the long haul. And, and I think I've seen three themes. Along these lines are three primary lessons. One is don't share everything on fucking Twitter, like, like to protect your privacy, and protect the privacy of people, you're going to help by not telling everyone what your intentions are on Twitter, so have good boundaries with social media. So that would be one. Number two would be for people who are able to take good care of yourself, do sufficient self care, so that if you have peace, then at least there is peace somewhere in the world. And then you can give that to others. And then third, is resist purity spirals, because our goals are way bigger than than this squabbling, that that we find ourselves in.

Chalice Blythe 53:11 Yeah, I mean, we're no longer talking about we no longer live in this, this comforting, delusion, that, Oh, that would never happen. We no longer live in that world. The thing that was never supposed to happen, it it has happened. That is our reality. Now, and there are real I mean, even within a span of 24 hours of this happening, there were already bodies being piled up. And it's only going to continue, it's only going to get worse. And it's only going to start it's going to start affecting groups like minded minority groups, and and already people that are disenfranchised, and those who are already considered to be the bottom of the rung of society and those who already live with, you know, the consequences of a society that think they are lesser, and so it's only going to impact them more, and we are going to be seeing more real lives lost. So because this is now very real, and it's only going to get worse. Let's stop pretending that we are fighting the enemy within in start fighting the real enemy and banding together for a single cause. compromise, compromise and work with your allies, whether or not you agree with them on everything else in this world. If you've got an ally who was willing to fight with you for this one thing, then you'll win. You will I mean, you win by numbers if you're smart. If you if you if you you know, re kind of re rework Are the framework in your mind of this being a long term battle, you know, longtime long term war is, is opposed to like a short term battle. And, you know, really, really focused that way, you know, we could, we could have such an impact by bringing so many different communities and people that share this particular wanton will to, you know, not have our rights taken away from us. If if we are able to band together, set our differences aside and fight for all of us who are disenfranchised, and all of us who are going to be disenfranchised because of this, then, you know, the the numbers, the concentrated effort, the unified the unified resources, and everything, all of that put together, that is going to impact change, and it's not going to look like just one thing, you know, it's not going to just be one thing, it's going to be a combination of so many different things that have to happen. But we have the ability to do it. And so yeah, don't don't take yourself out of the game short term, focus on the long term and focus on what's really important, and be willing to make compromises and be willing to you know, think of this in terms of of yours as opposed to what can I do today and then feel good about it and then carry on with my life, you know? Absolutely. I think what's gonna give me my was gonna give me my serotonin for the, you know, on on on online for 24 hours, you know, I don't know, but I think you've said it a lot better than I did. Well, anyway,

Stephen Bradford Long 56:41 that's it. And you know, one of my I think that's a fantastic note to end on, and resist purity, one of my satanic, one of my personal satanic tenets is resist purity. And whenever I start to feel that that righteous, pure indignation, because you know, someone who believes 99% of the same things that I do, but might have a slight disagreement, or even 80 or 60% of the same thing, as I do, but, you know, I'm willing to bludgeon that person to death on Twitter, because they are, you know, they're they are the near enemy. I must resist that purity, because resisting purity is how we win. I think that's an incredibly satanic principle.

Chalice Blythe 57:28 Yeah, resist purity and resist your oppressors.

Stephen Bradford Long 57:31 Absolutely. All right. Well, she leaves Blythe it is always a pleasure. And we are in this for the long haul.

Chalice Blythe 57:38 Yes, we are the long, bloody frustrating. We may or may not live through this long haul. Yeah,

Stephen Bradford Long 57:47 absolutely. All right. Well, as always, you know, you're always welcome back. It's always great to hang out with you. Thank you. All right. Well, that is it for this show. The museum. Jesus Christ, I always get this. I always fuck this up at the very end because I'm tired. That is it for this show. The theme song is wild by eleventy seven. You can find it on Apple Music, Spotify, or wherever you listen to music. The show is written, produced and edited by me Steven Bradford long and it is supported by my personal lords and saviors@patreon.com forward slash Steven Bradford long as always, Hail Satan. And thanks for listening